Why 150 Yards?

[rob67]

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Think it's difficult not to agree with everyones point of view cos we all come into racing with different expectations and goals. Maybe there are several factors that affect the distances races are held over, none moreso than the length of track available to clubs over which they can race and utilise in their opens. I think there should be more diversity in the length of the track, weight classes, allowance for dogs against bitches etc, just takes some brave minded club with the capacity to alter the 'goal posts' so to speak and try something different. To try change out at club level might be an interesting experiment, and one that already happens, speaking from my limited experience.

As for a true test of a whippet, think that can only be set and achieved by individual dogs and owners themselves. Just because a dog is a supreme champ of champs doesnt mean it is the best..........................only that it won at a time where the conditions were right for it to win, there will always be a better dog, maybe because of the length of track, conditions, gender etc. No-one or thing is invincible....................................................except Liverpool FC and Hartlepool United :lol: :lol:

chris

 

[milly]

Hi Wild!
I see exactly what you are saying but I'm a bit confused at the idea of a non-ped decelerating after 150 yards due to lactic acid build up!

From what you say it seems that in a nutshull, whippets are bred for 150 yards with a few others breed for bends.

Usain Bolt won the 100 metres in the Olympics in a world record time. He is big tall and very powerful, yet until recently he was not considered to be the fastest man in the world over 100 metres! He was regularly beaten by faster starting athletes simply because he often took a while to get into his stride but in the Olympic final he was able to keep the faster starting athletes within reach but once he got going it became clear that he is the fastest in the world bar none! As a newcomer it just seems to me thatin whippet racing the 150 metre champions may not actually be the fastest whippets simply because the race is over before the very fastest have got into their stride.

Is it that the champions are merely the quick trappers, blasting out the traps and going on to win race after race over 150 yards before their competitors have got going? Are these really the fastest whippets?

Hi Nubian, googling the likes of sprint athletes and acidosis will probably explain what I mean but lactic acid isn't the only factor, there are many that come into play.

Being unfamiliar with Usian Bolt I googled him, physically I'd say he looked like a sprinter, especially when you compare him to the likes of a Kenyan long distance athlete.

To me, I consider that over 150yds there is no margin for error, it's not just a matter of trapping well and going full pelt, being able to hold this is important too, especially with dogs that are stronger finishers coming up from behind. Miss the lids with either a dog with early pace or a strong finisher and it will often cost them a win, I actually like the idea that there is no margin for error and consider it a proper race.

I don't know the answer, as I say I'm a newbie but I just can't help wondering if things would be a little different if a "real" test was to be established!

What would you consider to be a ''real'' test? It'd be interesting to see what you think would be and I bet there's a dog out there that'll cater for it, whether it's a non-ped on the straights is another matter.

Hi Jac's, does this guy keep his camera in his shorts? :-

 

[Paws123]

Sorry if I seem to be banging on about this but the more I'm learning the more questions I feel I need to ask!!
From what I can see whippet racing seems to be based on a 150 yards sprint although it is clear that there are a number of bends races.

Coming from a greyhound background I saw that a standard distance was anything between about 380 metres and 480 metres over four bends. I know there were shorter and longer distances than these but this was the standard run and the end of these races the greyhounds were blowing hard. You knew (and I'm sure they did) they had just had a good run!

Now I know that we are talking about whippets here and they are a lot smaller than greyhounds and I'm not saying the whippets should be made to over- extend themselves. I cannot help noticing though from my very limited experience that when a whippet has just had it's 150 yards race it appears to be hardly blowing at all compared to greyhounds at the end of a race! Please don't think I'm saying that your whippets aren't being given a work-out, it's just doesn't look like it through my newcomer eyes.

So, following on from my other topic about whether bitches really are faster than dogs, could the answer be that 150 yards is too short to really present a true test of speed? I'm not saying that whippets should be run over anything like the distances a greyhound would run over but does it mean that 150 yards is long enough to truly test a whippet's speed, especially a non-ped?

I have run greyhounds over a stiff 400 yard straight gallop at Wickwar in Gloucestershire and at the end of that you are left in no doubt that the stronger, faster dog has won!

That might be a bit too stiff a test for a most whippets but perhaps say 200 or 275 yards might be a fairer test of outright speed than 150 yards?

Once again I'm not moaning or suggesting any change but just wondered people might think. I suspect you may find some surprising results!

So what if you have a dog that takes Sup over 150/160 yards straights and Sup over 200/240 meters bends ?

same dog won a 32 dog coursing lurcher stake over 400 yards up to 24 inches in hight

 

[wild whippies]

Hi Jac's, does this guy keep his camera in his shorts? :-

Ah Geoff you know me well, me and my fascination with cameras o

 

[moonlake]

Hi Nubian

Sorry I've been late getting back to this. IMO Wickwar is not a test of speed because it is uphill and too long for dogs smaller than greyhounds (and yes, I have run a track greyhound there). As others have said, whippets can hit top speed inside 150 yds and that is what whippet racing is - a test of sprint pace, ped or non-ped. What is peculiar, in my view, is that we handicap them on weight so that some of them are less than ideal weight whereas for greyhound sprints, you pack muscle (and therefor weight) on to the dog. I can't help feeling that some whippets - especially the peds - would run faster with more muscle mass. Maybe the owners think they have more chance in a particular weight group.

Those of us that elect to do more than one sport with our dogs sometimes have to sacrifice early pace for stamina and of course the size of the dog comes into that. The other thing is that bitches generally have more early pace than dogs because their hearts are physically larger (sorry, I can't find the link that explains this - I'll post it if I can get it back). But for coursing, where stamina and power come into play, gives powerful dogs the advantage. Luke won his WCR Ch title over 24lbs straight and 25lbs bends and never lacked the stamina for a 16 coursing stake but he was prettyunusual (he qualified for BWRA finals, too). In greyhounds, my Moonlake Mr Oak who ran up in the Anglia was 100lb dog and when I used to put him in local stakes as a veteran to make up the numbers, the racing trainers with their two-year old bitches thought they had an easy draw against a 6 year old 100lber but although their bitches led out of slips for about 50 yards, it was always the old man who got to the hare first. As always, it is horses for courses and people breed for what they want to do. You haven't asked for my advice but it would be that if you want to race, concentrate on getting a dog that can win over 150 yards and when you can do that, think about what else you want to do and what kind of a dog you would need. ie Don't try to do too many things at once or you won't succeed at any of them. :luck:

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[JOHNG]

Think it's difficult not to agree with everyones point of view cos we all come into racing with different expectations and goals. Maybe there are several factors that affect the distances races are held over, none moreso than the length of track available to clubs over which they can race and utilise in their opens. I think there should be more diversity in the length of the track, weight classes, allowance for dogs against bitches etc, just takes some brave minded club with the capacity to alter the 'goal posts' so to speak and try something different. To try change out at club level might be an interesting experiment, and one that already happens, speaking from my limited experience.As for a true test of a whippet, think that can only be set and achieved by individual dogs and owners themselves. Just because a dog is a supreme champ of champs doesnt mean it is the best..........................only that it won at a time where the conditions were right for it to win, there will always be a better dog, maybe because of the length of track, conditions, gender etc. No-one or thing is invincible....................................................except Liverpool FC and Hartlepool United :lol: :lol:

chris

i think the goal posts have been moved enough , if your not happy with the distance of 150/165yds then go into a sport that you are happy with or get out like i did,as for a dog not being the best because it won supreme champion i have to disagree it was the best on the day over whatever distance they run and thats what counts. like i said before WHIPPETS ARE SPRINTERS NOT STAYERS.whippets have raced over these distances for years and years so why should it be changed to suit a minority of people.

 

[milly]

Think it's difficult not to agree with everyones point of view cos we all come into racing with different expectations and goals. Maybe there are several factors that affect the distances races are held over, none moreso than the length of track available to clubs over which they can race and utilise in their opens. I think there should be more diversity in the length of the track, weight classes, allowance for dogs against bitches etc, just takes some brave minded club with the capacity to alter the 'goal posts' so to speak and try something different. To try change out at club level might be an interesting experiment, and one that already happens, speaking from my limited experience.As for a true test of a whippet, think that can only be set and achieved by individual dogs and owners themselves. Just because a dog is a supreme champ of champs doesnt mean it is the best..........................only that it won at a time where the conditions were right for it to win, there will always be a better dog, maybe because of the length of track, conditions, gender etc. No-one or thing is invincible....................................................except Liverpool FC and Hartlepool United :lol: :lol:

chris

i think the goal posts have been moved enough , if your not happy with the distance of 150/165yds then go into a sport that you are happy with or get out like i did,as for a dog not being the best because it won supreme champion i have to disagree it was the best on the day over whatever distance they run and thats what counts. like i said before WHIPPETS ARE SPRINTERS NOT STAYERS.whippets have raced over these distances for years and years so why should it be changed to suit a minority of people.

I can feel another poll coming on John :-

 

[rustic]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

Good point but remember :

1) that still doesn't mean 150 yards is a true test of speed and

2) have you seen what coursing greyhounds used to do in a day? A simpe eight dog stake would involve as many as three or more runs after a hare!! That would be an absolute but-guster! Some of those dogs were track-bred greyhounds as opposed to coursing bred and would still race on the track a couple of weeks later. Each run after the hare would be several times more than the 750 yards (5 times 150 yards) that the whippet would do in a day!

Even a drag coursing event at Wickwar would often involve three 400 yards gallops uphill some times with less than 30 minutes break in between each run!

if running 150yards in just over 9 seconds isnt a test of speed what is it

 

[Fleesh]

I suppose it's horses for courses yet again, "breeding" two sprinting human athletes would not necessarily produce another sprinting human athlete. We always see a number of African distance runners and yet there are the likes of Francis Obikwelu (Nigerian born but runs for Portugal :- ) one of the top sprinters in the world.

Sometimes genetically a dog naturally develops the larger muscles, shorter stocky physiology etc. required of the out and out sprinter (if memory serves just look at sprinter Zhanna Pintusevich-Block she was short and compact - a little brick sh*t house o ), the more compact the build the quicker the runner gets up to top leg speed etc. Of course this is not condusive to bend racing where a shorter leg stride and larger muscles lead to more overall strides, a faster build-up of lactic acid, the compact sprinter tires quicker than the more rangy runner with lower muscle mass meaning more rapid oxygen exchange in muscle cells, longer legs to take less strides and an overall longer length of time to get up to full speed meaning as their stockier competitors and beginning to "feel the burn" they are just about at full speed and the lag between the two gives the rangier dog the advantage.

Of course the tendency is to breed to get straight supreme winners as having a straight supreme winner is most popular aspiration (no doubt also to do with the length of the straight season and the number of prestigious straight events), therefore we can identify an increasing number of stocky built dogs.

IMHO the upmost achievement in breeding is not to produce as many Supreme, Classic and Title winners and possible but to produce the best quality all rounder, a dog capable of winning on both bends and straights in my eyes is worthy of far more praise than a one track pony.

Ooooh can of worms ... officially ... open ...

(I'm going to duck and cover for the abuse)

 

[ahorsnall]

I suppose it's horses for courses yet again, "breeding" two sprinting human athletes would not necessarily produce another sprinting human athlete. We always see a number of African distance runners and yet there are the likes of Francis Obikwelu (Nigerian born but runs for Portugal :- ) one of the top sprinters in the world.
Sometimes genetically a dog naturally develops the larger muscles, shorter stocky physiology etc. required of the out and out sprinter (if memory serves just look at sprinter Zhanna Pintusevich-Block she was short and compact - a little brick sh*t house o ), the more compact the build the quicker the runner gets up to top leg speed etc. Of course this is not condusive to bend racing where a shorter leg stride and larger muscles lead to more overall strides, a faster build-up of lactic acid, the compact sprinter tires quicker than the more rangy runner with lower muscle mass meaning more rapid oxygen exchange in muscle cells, longer legs to take less strides and an overall longer length of time to get up to full speed meaning as their stockier competitors and beginning to "feel the burn" they are just about at full speed and the lag between the two gives the rangier dog the advantage.

Of course the tendency is to breed to get straight supreme winners as having a straight supreme winner is most popular aspiration (no doubt also to do with the length of the straight season and the number of prestigious straight events), therefore we can identify an increasing number of stocky built dogs.

IMHO the upmost achievement in breeding is not to produce as many Supreme, Classic and Title winners and possible but to produce the best quality all rounder, a dog capable of winning on both bends and straights in my eyes is worthy of far more praise than a one track pony.

Ooooh can of worms ... officially ... open ...

(I'm going to duck and cover for the abuse)

sorry but what crap you calling a supreme racing chp a one track pony :blink: let me know if you feel the same if you get one

 

[JOHNG]

I suppose it's horses for courses yet again, "breeding" two sprinting human athletes would not necessarily produce another sprinting human athlete. We always see a number of African distance runners and yet there are the likes of Francis Obikwelu (Nigerian born but runs for Portugal :- ) one of the top sprinters in the world.
Sometimes genetically a dog naturally develops the larger muscles, shorter stocky physiology etc. required of the out and out sprinter (if memory serves just look at sprinter Zhanna Pintusevich-Block she was short and compact - a little brick sh*t house o ), the more compact the build the quicker the runner gets up to top leg speed etc. Of course this is not condusive to bend racing where a shorter leg stride and larger muscles lead to more overall strides, a faster build-up of lactic acid, the compact sprinter tires quicker than the more rangy runner with lower muscle mass meaning more rapid oxygen exchange in muscle cells, longer legs to take less strides and an overall longer length of time to get up to full speed meaning as their stockier competitors and beginning to "feel the burn" they are just about at full speed and the lag between the two gives the rangier dog the advantage.

Of course the tendency is to breed to get straight supreme winners as having a straight supreme winner is most popular aspiration (no doubt also to do with the length of the straight season and the number of prestigious straight events), therefore we can identify an increasing number of stocky built dogs.

IMHO the upmost achievement in breeding is not to produce as many Supreme, Classic and Title winners and possible but to produce the best quality all rounder, a dog capable of winning on both bends and straights in my eyes is worthy of far more praise than a one track pony.

Ooooh can of worms ... officially ... open ...

(I'm going to duck and cover for the abuse)

with a statement like that elise you deserve all the abuse you get. i have had two supreme champions and won countless titles ,i can tell it's far better than winning a top ten open, you should try it

 

[Fleesh]

I'm sure you enjoyed winning titles as much as I have enjoyed winning them in the relatively short period of time I have been racing though as I said my personal opinion when observing the qualities of a dog is that I hold all rounders in greater regard than dogs that can only win on just bends or just straight. To me an all rounder epitomizes the aim of breeding a racing whippet in that it can take to both disciplines with relative success.

Though either way this is irrelevant to the question asked in the original topic which was asking if 150yds was a true test of a racing dog not how many supreme champions you've had.

 

[JOHNG]

I'm sure you enjoyed winning titles as much as I have enjoyed winning them in the relatively short period of time I have been racing though as I said my personal opinion when observing the qualities of a dog is that I hold all rounders in greater regard than dogs that can only win on just bends or just straight. To me an all rounder epitomizes the aim of breeding a racing whippet in that it can take to both disciplines with relative success.
Though either way this is irrelevant to the question asked in the original topic which was asking if 150yds was a true test of a racing dog not how many supreme champions you've had.

you hav'nt clue what your talking about like a few more on here,i know it's not about how many champions iv'e had,but what you said is rubbish i.e.

HO the upmost achievement in breeding is not to produce as many Supreme, Classic and Title winners and possible but to produce the best quality all rounder, a dog capable of winning on both bends and straights in my eyes is worthy of far more praise than a one track pony.

there's a lot of people that will disagree with that statement,iam sure the majority of racers would love a one track racing champion PONY :teehee: :thumbsup:

 

[Fleesh]

I'm sure you enjoyed winning titles as much as I have enjoyed winning them in the relatively short period of time I have been racing though as I said my personal opinion when observing the qualities of a dog is that I hold all rounders in greater regard than dogs that can only win on just bends or just straight. To me an all rounder epitomizes the aim of breeding a racing whippet in that it can take to both disciplines with relative success.
Though either way this is irrelevant to the question asked in the original topic which was asking if 150yds was a true test of a racing dog not how many supreme champions you've had.

you hav'nt clue what your talking about like a few more on here,i know it's not about how many champions iv'e had,but what you said is rubbish i.e.

HO the upmost achievement in breeding is not to produce as many Supreme, Classic and Title winners and possible but to produce the best quality all rounder, a dog capable of winning on both bends and straights in my eyes is worthy of far more praise than a one track pony.

there's a lot of people that will disagree with that statement,iam sure the majority of racers would love a one track racing champion PONY :teehee: :thumbsup:

I'm sure many would disagree with my opinion, I'm sure many people have a different opinion, I'm sure all some people live for is to have a string of whippet racing champions, I'm sure some people would do just about anything to make sure their dog got an advantage, I'm sure many people race whippets purely for the love of the sport, I'm sure some race just for something to do on a weekend and I'm sure if they have an opinion of their own they'll use their common sense, disagree politely and put forward their own opinion which I'm also sure shall be treated with respect by myself whether I agree or not.

Though again we digress, and I wish to return to the topic at hand if anyone else holds any opinion on Nubians original post I would also enjoy reading it.

 

[mutley]

i think for anyone to win anything in whippet racing is a good acheivement it is easier nowadays to win a title due to less dogs :sweating: harder to win an open :sweating: again depending on the dogs present.... dont think you can beat that feeling of winning a champs title especialy sup

 

[friggsy]

i think for anyone to win anything in whippet racing is a good acheivement it is easier nowadays to win a title due to less dogs :sweating: harder to win an open :sweating: again depending on the dogs present.... dont think you can beat that feeling of winning a champs title especialy sup

well said :thumbsup:

 

[jasper.]

my turn now, in this topic people have stated that a big greyhound is usually a stayer, and a sprinter is usually a smaller dog...this is not true, infact it is usually the other way around...a small dog usually is a stayer, and your best sprinters are usually big dogs...this is common greyhound trainer knowlage.....

but at the end off the day,..a good bigun will beat a little one,....and a good little one will beat a bigun..and thats that.

 

[friggsy]

my turn now, in this topic people have stated that a big greyhound is usually a stayer, and a sprinter is usually a smaller dog...this is not true, infact it is usually the other way around...a small dog usually is a stayer, and your best sprinters are usually big dogs...this is common greyhound trainer knowlage.....but at the end off the day,..a good bigun will beat a little one,....and a good little one will beat a bigun..and thats that.

and thats true :thumbsup:

 

[rob67]

Think it's difficult not to agree with everyones point of view cos we all come into racing with different expectations and goals. Maybe there are several factors that affect the distances races are held over, none moreso than the length of track available to clubs over which they can race and utilise in their opens. I think there should be more diversity in the length of the track, weight classes, allowance for dogs against bitches etc, just takes some brave minded club with the capacity to alter the 'goal posts' so to speak and try something different. To try change out at club level might be an interesting experiment, and one that already happens, speaking from my limited experience.As for a true test of a whippet, think that can only be set and achieved by individual dogs and owners themselves. Just because a dog is a supreme champ of champs doesnt mean it is the best..........................only that it won at a time where the conditions were right for it to win, there will always be a better dog, maybe because of the length of track, conditions, gender etc. No-one or thing is invincible....................................................except Liverpool FC and Hartlepool United :lol: :lol:

chris

i think the goal posts have been moved enough , if your not happy with the distance of 150/165yds then go into a sport that you are happy with or get out like i did,as for a dog not being the best because it won supreme champion i have to disagree it was the best on the day over whatever distance they run and thats what counts. like i said before WHIPPETS ARE SPRINTERS NOT STAYERS.whippets have raced over these distances for years and years so why should it be changed to suit a minority of people.

Haway John nothing ventured nothing gained..................if man had stuck with monkeys as mates then you would never have met us fairer sex !! :lol:

It's never the wrong time to think of what might change racing for the better :thumbsup:

 

[jasper.]

Think it's difficult not to agree with everyones point of view cos we all come into racing with different expectations and goals. Maybe there are several factors that affect the distances races are held over, none moreso than the length of track available to clubs over which they can race and utilise in their opens. I think there should be more diversity in the length of the track, weight classes, allowance for dogs against bitches etc, just takes some brave minded club with the capacity to alter the 'goal posts' so to speak and try something different. To try change out at club level might be an interesting experiment, and one that already happens, speaking from my limited experience.As for a true test of a whippet, think that can only be set and achieved by individual dogs and owners themselves. Just because a dog is a supreme champ of champs doesnt mean it is the best..........................only that it won at a time where the conditions were right for it to win, there will always be a better dog, maybe because of the length of track, conditions, gender etc. No-one or thing is invincible....................................................except Liverpool FC and Hartlepool United :lol: :lol:

chris

i think the goal posts have been moved enough , if your not happy with the distance of 150/165yds then go into a sport that you are happy with or get out like i did,as for a dog not being the best because it won supreme champion i have to disagree it was the best on the day over whatever distance they run and thats what counts. like i said before WHIPPETS ARE SPRINTERS NOT STAYERS.whippets have raced over these distances for years and years so why should it be changed to suit a minority of people.

Haway John nothing ventured nothing gained..................if man had stuck with monkeys as mates then you would never have met us fairer sex !! :lol:

It's never the wrong time to think of what might change racing for the better :thumbsup:

yea bring it on, why not 4 bends for the sc dogs,