Working Strains?

[nigelmcfc]

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Much has been said and deleted about the Sooty Sam line , we know Mike breeds an excellent working strain despite what some on here think (w00t) . Paul Cork of Lynperry fame breeds good workers too. What I want to know is where are all the other working strains that we hear so much about , who breeds them and where are they???

By working I mean dogs that are capable of taking a dozen or so rabbits in a morning or on a nights lamping session, not just the odd youngster in the summer

 

[sparky]

Much has been said and deleted about the Sooty Sam line , we know Mike breeds an excellent working strain despite what some on here think (w00t) . Paul Cork of Lynperry fame breeds good workers too. What I want to know is where are all the other working strains that we hear so much about , who breeds them and where are they???By working I mean dogs that are capable of taking a dozen or so rabbits in a morning or on  a nights  lamping session, not just the odd youngster in the summer

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my little racing bred bitch can do all of the above and at only 17 n 3/4 and 18 pounds makes me quite proud. ferreting the bunnies makes it easier for her and she doesnt favour a long run up.. :thumbsup:

 

[nigelmcfc]

Much has been said and deleted about the Sooty Sam line , we know Mike breeds an excellent working strain despite what some on here think (w00t) . Paul Cork of Lynperry fame breeds good workers too. What I want to know is where are all the other working strains that we hear so much about , who breeds them and where are they???By working I mean dogs that are capable of taking a dozen or so rabbits in a morning or on  a nights  lamping session, not just the odd youngster in the summer

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my little racing bred bitch can do all of the above and at only 17 n 3/4 and 18 pounds makes me quite proud. ferreting the bunnies makes it easier for her and she doesnt favour a long run up.. :thumbsup:

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How is she bred Sparky?

 

[Strike Whippets]

I think most/all Whippets could work if taught correctly on how to do so (ie restrain, obedience, kill, retrieve etc .....) .....I know my few that are allowed to kill always bring back to hand as I've taught them to retrieve (it wasn't a good thing when the ban had just come in and we killed something bigger than ourselves though and was dragging said thing back to me ), but I don't work my lot as such, we just dabble (though I was brought up with working Lurchers, so do have a little clue :- " ) .......My original topic was prompted by the fact that for working dogs there really is only the 1-2 lines you've mentioned above ever being mentioned ......I thought there should be more as there are so many different lines about ......Plus we know there's problems in the 2 breeders lines mentioned above ......I think its sad that racers, show and working Whippet people can be soooo blinkered ........My racing brood bitch who at 21lbs and 18.5 inches could take fox cleanly (pre ban and it wasn't encouraged) as well as rabbits galore is half coursing bred and half racing .......I put her to a racer / coursing bred and now her daughter is booked to a half racer and half coursing bred dog ....... With the problems about they will be healthy with great bone, the correct size, not inter bred and they will be of sound temperament ......Oh yes and be able to race and fill the pot :thumbsup: ......There are many MANY lines like this out there, but they aren't promoted or advertised in CW as its not needed .....My next bitch has 2-3 bitches and 2 dogs booked already and shes got nearly a year to go before shes mated, but I doubt many people know who she is :- "

 

[milliken]

Much has been said and deleted about the Sooty Sam line , we know Mike breeds an excellent working strain despite what some on here think (w00t) . Paul Cork of Lynperry fame breeds good workers too. What I want to know is where are all the other working strains that we hear so much about , who breeds them and where are they???By working I mean dogs that are capable of taking a dozen or so rabbits in a morning or on  a nights  lamping session, not just the odd youngster in the summer

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can u really say that its a working strain if they are only worked on rabbit

 

[Strike Whippets]

Much has been said and deleted about the Sooty Sam line , we know Mike breeds an excellent working strain despite what some on here think (w00t) . Paul Cork of Lynperry fame breeds good workers too. What I want to know is where are all the other working strains that we hear so much about , who breeds them and where are they???By working I mean dogs that are capable of taking a dozen or so rabbits in a morning or on  a nights  lamping session, not just the odd youngster in the summer

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my little racing bred bitch can do all of the above and at only 17 n 3/4 and 18 pounds makes me quite proud. ferreting the bunnies makes it easier for her and she doesnt favour a long run up.. :thumbsup:

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How is she bred Sparky?

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Parkstone Taboo x WCRCh Chase The Pied Piper

Parkstone Taboo = WCRCh Kerrys Boy x Parkstone Sweet Harmony ....Sweet Harmony is out of a Rowangarth Dawn Wind x Our Girl Of Parkstone ....so goes back to show lines

WCRCh Chase The Pied Piper = WCRCh/SupFedCh/SpCh Hammeron x Firedancer ........ Complete racing breds :thumbsup: ....

 

[Lurch and his tribe]

can u really say that its a working strain if they are only worked on rabbit

well its them and rats mate unless you suggest breaking the law :- "

 

[milliken]

can u really say that its a working strain if they are only worked on rabbit

well its them and rats mate unless you suggest breaking the law :- "

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i dont break the law im one of the lucky ones i live in n.ireland we are exclued from the law happy hunting

 

[tripletree28]

I think alot of whippets show or race bred would work if given the chance. I think Mike Brown gave his the chance and through line and inbreeding fixed the working qualities he was after. I don't think this line is superior but it has been bred for the purpose so it lesens the chance of having a pup that isn't predisposed to work. To get back to the original question I would say all the coursing bred lines would transfer to rabbits with ease I don't think the whippets themselves discriminate between hare and rabbit. Lines like Jimanica, Chyton, Terichline, Banatay to mention just a few. These lines have been carefully bred from tried and tested dogs that have the right balance of pace, stamina and agility. And many of these lines have periodical injections of pace from race bred dogs especially now they are chasing the lure. i know these lines aren't heavily promoted for working but I bet they would compare favourably in the field.

I have a Sooty Sam bred bitch that I'm more than happy with but I'm not blinkered into thinking that she or any other similarly bred dog stands head and shoulders above other whips. I suppose she is identifiable as working bred but I've also got a young dog from different lines that I think and hope will be every bit as good if not better.

I notice another thread has been deleted it's ashame because it's only every so often that a true debate gets going on this site.(most of the time we are dredging through endless puppy pictures or iggies dressed in santa costumes which is great to a point) True that debate is usually about Sooty Sam but other off shoots and interesting mini topics usually develope as well and they keep being pulled. It's a real shame because it's deleted from future reference as well. Much better to delete offending posts rather than whole threads but hey what do I know maybe you could start with this post big brother.

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

Rowangarth Dawn Wind without doubt one of the best rabbiting whippets i have ever seen i saw this dog work many times & plough through the thickest of cover & come out the other side with his rabbit a great ferreting dog too. :thumbsup:

 

[Paula Roberts]

Parkstone Sweet Harmony was IMO the best dog we have ever owned, she was a show dog, race dog, working dog, and ran at the Vale Royal Coursing club, and got the course of the day when she was 7 years old, she was also a great pet, gone but never forgotton, :huggles: great to see she"s passed it on to her granchildren.

 

[nigelmcfc]

I notice another thread has been deleted it's ashame because it's only every so often that a true debate gets going on this site.(most of the time we are dredging through endless puppy pictures or iggies dressed in santa costumes which is great to a point) True that debate is usually about Sooty Sam but other off shoots and interesting mini topics usually develope as well and they keep being pulled.  It's a real shame because it's deleted from future reference as well.  Much better to delete offending posts rather than whole threads but hey what do I know maybe you could start with this post big brother.

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You`re bang on there Tripletree , why pull the other thread when it was getting to the real point, this debate will rumble on and on , the one thing it does show is that there are some people with very strange attitudes in the whippet world, those who work their dogs are looked down on in some quarters and referred to as lurcher owners!! (w00t) I`ve owned lurchers myself in the past, still do in fact , Tia my oldest dog is a collie x whippet .Since the ban, many have looked to the whippet as the perfect hunting dog for legal quarry, i.e rabbit and rat , hence the rise in popularity . True, most whippets will work , but obviously some strains work better than others because they have been bred that way. One-offs occur , but what I want to know where are other working strains apart from Mike Brown`s and Corky`s? I have heard of the Rimrock strain via CMW has anyone any info on them?

The reason I`m posting this is to promote debate, but also to find where the next generation of working blood is coming from, the gene pool isn`t unlimited , so who else is breeding a good strain of workers that can do an honest days graft in the field ?

 

[Mark Roberts]

The other threads were pulled by several mods due to a number of complaints from members as most are sick to the back teath of the same old debates about SS(especialy when aimed at getting a rise by some)

This thread will remain as long as it stays on topic.

 

[~elizabeth~]

there are some people with very strange attitudes in the whippet world, those who work their dogs are looked down on in some quarters and referred to as lurcher owners!!   (w00t) I`ve  owned lurchers myself in the past, still do in fact

No one on this board has said you are lurcher owners. Another individual has, and the remark I made was a reference to this if you have a problem with that, take it up with her. There is nothing wrong with lurchers, the majority are nice dogs bred for a specific purpose. It isn't individuals that remarks have been directed at, but the outdated practices that have followed in the breeding of your favoured strain. Which are largely practices that derive from lurcher breeding (Make F1 and F2 crosses, then inbreed and cull aggressively). The reason many people favour KC reg dogs with a pedigree is that they like a guarantee that the puppy they buy has not been bred in this way

The same people also take a pride in pouring scorn on breed standards and KC registration; personally I tire of arguments over breed standards, not because I think they are irrelevant or wrong, but many people misinterpret them. They should talk about conformation instead, as good conformation is essential in a running/working dog. I'm sure many working dogs have an excellent conformation for their job, but many don't and inbreeding won't help eradicate serious faults that are deeply embedded in a line.

Was not SS himself a one-off by your definition? His breeding derived from a coursing strain, and his foundation partners were from show/coursing lines, so one-offs too

 

[nigelmcfc]

there are some people with very strange attitudes in the whippet world, those who work their dogs are looked down on in some quarters and referred to as lurcher owners!!   (w00t) I`ve  owned lurchers myself in the past, still do in fact

No one on this board has said you are lurcher owners. Another individual has, and the remark I made was a reference to this if you have a problem with that, take it up with her. There is nothing wrong with lurchers, the majority are nice dogs bred for a specific purpose. It isn't individuals that remarks have been directed at, but the outdated practices that have followed in the breeding of your favoured strain. Which are largely practices that derive from lurcher breeding (Make F1 and F2 crosses, then inbreed and cull aggressively). The reason many people favour KC reg dogs with a pedigree is that they like a guarantee that the puppy they buy has not been bred in this way

The same people also take a pride in pouring scorn on breed standards and KC registration; personally I tire of arguments over breed standards, not because I think they are irrelevant or wrong, but many people misinterpret them. They should talk about conformation instead, as good conformation is essential in a running/working dog. I'm sure many working dogs have an excellent conformation for their job, but many don't and inbreeding won't help eradicate serious faults that are deeply embedded in a line.

Was not SS himself a one-off by your definition? His breeding derived from a coursing strain, and his foundation partners were from show/coursing lines, so one-offs too

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I not bothered about being called a lurcher owner, if that means I use my dogs for what they were bred for so be it.. All my rabbiting is done with the landowners consent and with permission , I`m not a poacher . I think it`s sad that certain individuals can`t be more constructive than that .

As far as SS goes , yes he may well have been a one-off , but if you had actually met Mike and listened to his story, he saw potential in SS for the work that he did , which was lamping rabbits . Not only did SS have the speed needed for this, he more importantly had the stamina hunting ability ,drive and desire to continue when other dogs were jacking.This drive and desire is what is prized the most about this line , and why owners of SS line dogs value them so greatly.

This is what I see in my own whippets which are from this line. If you`re out ferreting up on the fells where we go, a dog that will be ready for home after 10 runs or so is about as much use as ..... The reason why owners of Mike`s strain that work them speak so highly of them is for this reason. Fair enough some may not agree with Mike`s breeding method , but hey it`s a free country and he hasn`t done anything illegal .Live and let live is what I say, I`m not a big fan of show dogs and showing but if that`s what people enjoy then fine . The reason we lost live coursing is that united we all stood , but divided we have now all fallen , there is a lot of eliteism in the world of pedigree dogs and whippets are no different.

Times have changed , the breed moves on

 

[~elizabeth~]

he more importantly had the stamina hunting ability ,drive and desire to continue when other dogs were jacking.This drive and desire is what is prized the most about this line , and why owners of SS line dogs value them so greatly.

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Yes, but so do lots of other dogs from his original coursing line, and all the others, a point that keeps being made over and over and over again, with numerous examples. -_- I'm not sure it is univerally 'lacking', though it can be a simplistic marketing tactic to suggest it is.

 

[~elizabeth~]

I think it`s sad that certain individuals can`t be more constructive than that... there is a lot of eliteism in the world of pedigree dogs and whippets are no different.

I'm glad we can agree on something

 

[nigelmcfc]

he more importantly had the stamina hunting ability ,drive and desire to continue when other dogs were jacking.This drive and desire is what is prized the most about this line , and why owners of SS line dogs value them so greatly.

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Yes, but so do lots of other dogs from his original coursing line, and all the others, a point that keeps being made over and over and over again, with numerous examples. -_- I'm not sure it is univerally 'lacking', though it can be a simplistic marketing tactic to suggest it is.

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It`s not a marketing tactic, it`s reality . If there are other lines that exhibit these qualities then I`m all ears , lets hear about them working . Back in my lurcher days more years ago than I`d like to admit, I saw a few whippets out working . Some were clearly not bred for the purpose , fair enough they`d chase well enough, but after afew runs they were ready for going home. My opinion of whippets changed dramatically when I saw a black Laguna bred dog work rabbits up on the fells near Malham. At that time the Dales was in the middle of a plague of rabbits , they were everywhere, with the right dog 30-40 daytime rabbits were possible, not netting , just walking up on them as they sat out on the moor , or bolting them for the dogs.

At the time I owned whippet lurchers, and I thought I had a very good rabbiting dog, a whippet x greyhound. She had speed strike and rarely for this cross stamina. The Laguna dog though blew my mind. He was as intelligent as a collie , had tremendous speed and a superb strike , He also had that special something which you see in dogs of that type. He had great stamina too , and he caught well over 30 daytime rabbits on that fell . From that day on I was hooked, like you said the qualities SS had came from his Laguna blood, everybody acknowledges this , these qualities are very much prized by rabbiting men . We readily recognise the work done by Dorrit McKay and Mrs Bond-Gunning in creating this line, Mike saw the potential of this blood and harnessed it. I can see the same qualities in my own dogs today, that is why it is so important that this line continues :thumbsup:

 

[~elizabeth~]

The Laguna dog though blew my mind. He was as intelligent as a collie , had tremendous speed and a superb strike , He also had that special something which you see in dogs of that type. He had great stamina too , and he caught well over 30 daytime rabbits on that fell . From that day on I was hooked, like you said the qualities SS had came from his Laguna blood, everybody acknowledges this , these qualities are very much prized by rabbiting men . We readily recognise the work done by Dorrit McKay and Mrs Bond-Gunning in creating this line

I'm glad you agree as I have dogs from this line myself and value my older dog for all those qualities and more :thumbsup: But if I'm ever lucky enough get a pup back from my dog I would be looking for an unrelated partner that brings in other valuable traits as well.

 

[nigelmcfc]

The Laguna dog though blew my mind. He was as intelligent as a collie , had tremendous speed and a superb strike , He also had that special something which you see in dogs of that type. He had great stamina too , and he caught well over 30 daytime rabbits on that fell . From that day on I was hooked, like you said the qualities SS had came from his Laguna blood, everybody acknowledges this , these qualities are very much prized by rabbiting men . We readily recognise the work done by Dorrit McKay and Mrs Bond-Gunning in creating this line

I'm glad you agree as I have dogs from this line myself and value my older dog for all those qualities and more :thumbsup: But if I'm ever lucky enough get a pup back from my dog I would be looking for an unrelated partner that brings in other valuable traits as well.

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What myself and others are looking for is the`missing link`if you like that will produce dogs with the same desire and stamina , but which will widen the gene pool, the search will go on. Pennymeadow and others are starting to look at outcrosses , good luck lads!!