Working Strains?

[~elizabeth~]

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What myself and others are looking for is the`missing link`if you like that will produce dogs with the same desire and stamina , but which will widen the gene pool, the search will go on.

I genuinely wish you luck in your search then. :thumbsup:

 

[nigelmcfc]

What myself and others are looking for is the`missing link`if you like that will produce dogs with the same desire and stamina , but which will widen the gene pool, the search will go on.

I genuinely wish you luck in your search then. :thumbsup:

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Cheers, :cheers:

 

[Strike Whippets]

Yes, but so do lots of other dogs from his original coursing line, and all the others, a point that keeps being made over and over and over again, with numerous examples. sleeping.gif I'm not sure it is univerally 'lacking', though it can be a simplistic marketing tactic to suggest it is. wink.gif

Yes but as you've just said these "other" lines that have speed, stamina, guts and determination aren't advertised or marketed ......Perhaps we ought to boast about our dogs achievements and have photos taken of them with all of their kills, then may be it might sink in that there are lines out there, easily capable of recognition .......2 of Inca's last litter both work and they do a great job, the dog is only 21lbs and 19 inches and the bitch is only 17lbs and nearly 18 inches but she does her job well :thumbsup: ........This subject just goes round and round :wacko:

The reason I`m posting this is to promote debate, but also to find where the next generation of working blood is coming from, the gene pool isn`t unlimited , so who else is breeding a good strain of workers that can do an honest days graft in the field ?

Working people breed working lines ......Just like coursing, show and racers breed for their particular disciplines .......This is how the types of Whippets gene pools become isolated as show people wouldn't want to add a racer to their lines and vice versa ........ Racers as a majority are too scared to add anything other than pure speed to their lines .....I personally think its only the proper coursing bred dogs that do have show lines and an injection of speed every now and then added to their lines .......Just because you don't see any of these dogs out there working day or night in the field it doesn't mean they aren't out there or that they aren't capable, its just these dogs WON'T be promoted as out and out workers because this isn't their main discipline.........You can go lure coursing or racing and see the dogs that have stamina (as not all do), speed, determination, conformation, guts and most of the time there's relatives there to compare them with .....So strong and weaker lines can be easily judged IMO ........ If we all get blinkered like SS is the only line to go to for a working dog, and racing champion sires are the only studs to use etc .... we'll all make the gene pools smaller and more isolated .......Its happening in the racing lines as the same line/lines have been repeatedly used and now its becoming hard to find a line free from these 1-2 main lines ........ Sometimes someone just has to take a chance and bite the bullet and go to a different type of Whippet and line .....and just see what you get .....

 

[Mini Me]

OMG...I will kill our Pepper. She gave birth last night and I missed all this! I will catch up though...I did post the Kennel club conversation yesterday but people complained and it was deleted. It would seem its a bit animal farm in this place...everyone is equal, just some are more equal than others. Dont worry though Jeff we both know, 'The Truth Is Out There.'

 

[~elizabeth~]

I personally think its only the proper coursing bred dogs that do have show lines and an injection of speed every now and then added to their lines ...

Spot on, and they don't suffer for it in performance, health or temperament. The best, most balanced and some of the most attractive whippets around. I've been equally critical of some people within show circles who breed back generation after generation after generation to half-siblings or other 'line' :- " matches with a single remove and consequently deplete the vigour, fertility, health and life-expectancy of their dogs. I feel it's not fair to single out breeding methods in working circles actually, these are bad practices wherever they are found. :thumbsup:

 

[Judy]

Some posts have already gone off topic and been deleted.

From the rules

# We require all posts to be appropriate, constructive, and on topic. We may delete or move individual posts that could ruin a good topic thread. We reserve the right to remove any topics or posts we deem inappropriate or disruptive to our community. Please note that, from time to time, posts may be removed for being inappropriate even though the individual post in that topic may have been perfectly fine. Please do not feel this reflects badly on the poster.

 

# Do not use K9 Community to air your grievances. As examples: If you have a problem with a breeder, handler, partner, co-owner, or kennel keep it private; do not complain about them publicly on K9. If someone on K9 asks about a particular breeder or kennel and you have negative information about them DO NOT put that information on the board get in touch privately.

 

[Mini Me]

Some posts have already gone off topic and been deleted.
From the rules

If someone on K9 asks about a particular breeder or kennel and you have negative information about them DO NOT put that information on the board get in touch privately.[/b]

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Can I ask, does this rule apply only to breeders who are k9 users, or does it also apply to breeders from the wider dog owning community?

 

[Mini Me]

I think alot of whippets show or race bred would work if given the chance.  I think Mike Brown gave his the chance and through line and inbreeding fixed the working qualities he was after.  I don't think this line is superior but it has been bred for the purpose so it lesens the chance of having a pup that isn't predisposed to work.
I have a Sooty Sam bred bitch that I'm more than happy with but I'm not blinkered into thinking that she or any other similarly bred dog stands head and shoulders above other whips.

I notice another thread has been deleted it's ashame because it's only every so often that a true debate gets going on this site.(most of the time we are dredging through endless puppy pictures or iggies dressed in santa costumes which is great to a point) True that debate is usually about Sooty Sam but other off shoots and interesting mini topics usually develope as well and they keep being pulled.  It's a real shame because it's deleted from future reference as well.

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Common sense... :cheers: I think if you read carefully, EVERYTHING I HAVE POSTED (seriously, not when I have been taking the p!5s) is right along the lines of this post. Well done Tripeltree on excellent observations!

 

[Mini Me]

It isn't individuals that remarks have been directed at, but the outdated practices that have followed in the breeding of your favoured strain. Which are largely practices that derive from lurcher breeding (Make F1 and F2 crosses, then inbreed and cull aggressively). The reason many people favour KC reg dogs with a pedigree is that they like a guarantee that the puppy they buy has not been bred in this way 

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I have had posts from mods saying people have complained about MY posts. I am an individual Elizabeth.

I have never owned a lurched in my life. And as for culling aggressively? Never culled a puppy in my life.

I love KC registered dogs. I am a snob in this respect. I would not home a dog that was not K.C. registered.

 

[Mini Me]

The same people also take a pride in pouring scorn on breed standards and KC registration; personally I tire of arguments over breed standards, not because I think they are irrelevant or wrong, but many people misinterpret them. They should talk about conformation instead, as good conformation is essential in a running/working dog. I'm sure many working dogs have an excellent conformation for their job, but many don't and inbreeding won't help eradicate serious faults that are deeply embedded in a line.
Was not SS himself a one-off by your definition? His breeding derived from a coursing strain, and his foundation partners were from show/coursing lines, so one-offs too 

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I dont feel there is anything wrong with the whippets breed standard. I feel it takes into account all that is necessary to produce a dog that can 'fill the pot.'

I also feel that it is of the utmost importance to bring new blood into a line and I am very aware of peoples 'kennel blindness.' To be honest, I feel that this is human nature (my son Billy is the best looking baby in the world bar none!, my border terriers are the best border terriers ever [in my dreams of course, but it is only human nature], although I am right about my Billy though :- " ). What is important is that you are aware of your dogs fallshorts and deal with them in future generations.

There is NOT a single whippet breeder out there that can say there dogs do not need improving in one way or another, and a little bit 'SS' may just do the trick for yours :thumbsup: I do not intend to take Pepper back to Mikes place and use one of his dogs on her in her next litter (should I breed her again). I see no point in repeating the mating (even though these pups are excellent). That would be a backward move for me.

I already have two other dogs in mind. I want new blood. BUT it has to be the right blood. I feel I have been lucky enough to have found it, or more importantly, IT found ME. That is not to say that once I have imported new blood into my line, I would not go back to Mike again in the future. Without any doubt, his dogs have got what it takes for me. And for me, in my kennel, its my opinion that counts way before anyone elses.

Sooty Sam was not a one off. He was one of MANY MANY dogs bred from that kennel that has everything you could wish for in a working Whippet.

 

[Mini Me]

I'm glad you agree as I have dogs from this line myself and value my older dog for all those qualities and more :thumbsup: But if I'm ever lucky enough get a pup back from my dog I would be looking for an unrelated partner that brings in other valuable traits as well.

What breeding is your dog Elizabeth? Its not the same as Sooty Sam's obviously, so I may be interested in using him in the future

 

[Mini Me]

What myself and others are looking for is the`missing link`if you like that will produce dogs with the same desire and stamina , but which will widen the gene pool, the search will go on. Pennymeadow and others are starting to look at outcrosses , good luck lads!!

:cheers:

 

[Mini Me]

Working people breed working lines ......Just like coursing, show and racers breed for their particular disciplines .......This is how the types of Whippets gene pools become isolated as show people wouldn't want to add a racer to their lines and vice versa ........ Racers as a majority are too scared to add anything other than pure speed to their lines .....I personally think its only the proper coursing bred dogs that do have show lines and an injection of speed every now and then added to their lines .......

And Mike Brown's! 'Glen' his stud dog is out of Drakeoaks on wings of gold over his working bitch 'Micky's Clwyd'. plenty of show stock in there! 8)

Pedigree Of Drakeoaks on wings of gold

Sex: Dog

Breed: Whippet

+----------------------------------------- - Birkonbrae Coeur de Lyon

+-------------------------------- Hillsdown Fergal

| +------------------------------------------ Siobhan of Hillsdown

+-------------------- Champion Pencloe Dutch Gold :BIS Crufts 1991, Top Whippet 1991

| | +----------------------------------------- - CH Oakbark Middleman

| +---------------------------------- Moonbeam of Pencloe & Kienford

| +------------------------------------------ Siobhan of Hillsdown

+--------- Champion Millwold Gold Dust to Exhurst :Top Stud Dog 2005

| | +----------------------------------------- - CH Newbold Muffinman

| | +---------------------------------- CH Norwill Barley at Hammonds

| | | +------------------------------------------ Barley Horn Josie

| +-------------------- Champion Millwold Suntan

| | +----------------------------------------- - Zachariah Aurum

| +---------------------------------- Millwold Sunburst

| +----------------------------------------- - Trundlegate Tiddlywink

+-- Drakeoaks on wings of gold

| +------------------------------------------ Birkonbrae Coeur de Lyon

| +---------------------------------- Hillsdown Fergal

| | +------------------------------------------ Siobhan of Hillsdown

| +-------------------- Champion Cobyco Candyman

| | | +----------------------------------------- - CH Master Shoemaker of Oakbark | | +---------------------------------- Oakbark Mistletoe and Wine

| | +------------------------------------------ Oakbark Calendar Girl

+--------- Oakbark Magical Dancer at Drakesoak

| +------------------------------------------ CH Master Shoemaker of Oakbark | +---------------------------------- CH Oakbark Masterplan | | +------------------------------------------ CH Oakbark Generation Girl

+-------------------- Champion Savilepark Saucy Shrimp of Oakbark

| +------------------------------------------ CH Cottonmere Monty of Oakbark +---------------------------------- Savilepark Spickerty Witch at Sylbecq

+------------------------------------------ Showpiece at Savilepark

 

[Judy]

Some posts have already gone off topic and been deleted.
From the rules

If someone on K9 asks about a particular breeder or kennel and you have negative information about them DO NOT put that information on the board get in touch privately.[/b]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Can I ask, does this rule apply only to breeders who are k9 users, or does it also apply to breeders from the wider dog owning community?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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It applies to everyone

The rules are there to protect everyone. The reason some posts are deleted or topics closed is because some people break them.

Here's another

Users may not argue a Moderators or Administrators decision publicly. Any and all complaints directed at a Moderator must first address the Moderator in question via PM. Posts that ask where has such and such a post gone? are not acceptable. If the problem cannot be resolved, then the Moderator and user must send their positions to an Administrator.

So if any of you have any further questions about the rules or moderating then please PM moderators privately. :thumbsup:

 

[Mini Me]

Sorry, this may be a bit clearer...

And Mike Brown's! 'Glen' his stud dog is out of Drakeoaks on wings of gold over his working bitch 'Micky's Clwyd'. plenty of show stock in there! 8)

Drakeoaks on wings of gold - Linechaser Info, 4 generations

--G1------

M-CH Millwold Gold Dust to Exhurst

F-Oakbark Magical Dancer at Drakesoak

--G2------

M-CH Pencloe Dutch Gold

F-CH Millwold Suntan

M-CH Cobyco Candyman

F-CH Savilepark Saucy Shrimp of Oakbark--G3------

M-Hillsdown Fergal

F-Moonbeam of Pencloe & Kienford

M-CH Norwill Barley at Hammonds

F-Millwold Sunburst

M-Hillsdown Fergal

F-Oakbark Mistletoe and Wine

M-CH Oakbark Masterplan

F-Savilepark Spickerty Witch at Sylbecq

--G4------

M-Birkonbrae Coeur de Lyon

F-Siobhan of Hillsdown

M-CH Oakbark Middleman

F-Siobhan of Hillsdown

M-CH Newbold Muffinman

F-Barley Horn Josie

M-Zachariah Aurum

F-Trundlegate Tiddlywink

M-Birkonbrae Coeur de Lyon

F-Siobhan of Hillsdown

M-CH Master Shoemaker of Oakbark

F-Oakbark Calendar Girl

M-CH Master Shoemaker of Oakbark

F-CH Oakbark Generation Girl

M-CH Cottonmere Monty of Oakbark

F-Showpiece at Savilepark

 

[Mini Me]

Someone else unafraid to mix up the lines...If I am not mistaken, young Jeff Hutchings...Purple dogs are racing, red dogs are show, black dogs are working, green dogs are coursing...

Pennymeadow Chase the Ace - Linechaser Info, 4 generations

Inbreeding: 1.0%

M - AF03294203 - 03/08/2005

--G1------

M-Parkstone Buttons

F-Trudys scrumptious of Pennymeadow Pennymeadow - AE00129201 - 04/12/2003

--G2------

M-WCRA +CH of CHAMPS Casaloma Perry'sboy

F-Parkstone Sweet Harmony

M-Kenzed Bobslad - ZO318501Z01

F-Chiltons Lively Lady - AA03837903

--G3------

M-WCRA + FED CH Perry Lane

F-Casaloma Sea Breeze M-Rowangarth Dawn Wind - S506306T01

F-Our Girl of Parkstone

M-Sooty Sam - R04 - 13/08/1991 - Working

F-Mysitc Sight

M-Laguna Lively Lad

F-Tryquill Tiara

--G4------

M-WCRA + FED CH Pippawood Mountain Appollo

F-WRCA + FED CH Black Orbit

M-WCRA Ch Casaloma Sea Pigeon

F-FED + VET CH Papadaro Camilla

M-Hillsdown Fergal

F-Rowangarth Midnight Rose

M-Mithrandir Parneaius

F-Trajax Jay of Makhill

M-Black Lance - P02 - 21/06/1985 - Working

F-Gillscar Soft Whisper - K08 - 22/08/1984 - Working

M-Sooty Sam - R04 - 13/08/1991 - Working

F-Sally Honey - T01 - 25/12/1992 - Working

M-Lilting Laird Of Laguna - TO4

F-Laguna Liberty Lace - TO2

M-CH Pennybeck Silver Sixpence

F-Silver Ash

And guess who's working lines they are...

 

[Strike Whippets]

Well done to Jeff ..... I know Gill and her Drakesoak line and I think its great ....I know her lines are more than capable of working ....being show dogs and all .... ....Out crosses are good ...

 

[tripletree28]

This is the beauty of breeding for work or otherwise finding two complimentary dogs it's what everyone is searching for those interested in breeding that is. The amount of times I've decided on a stud for the future and bored our brother senseless with the merits of using that particular dog, only to come up with a completely new possibilty two days later. I've got through so many possibilties from the obvious to Sooty sam outcrosses to racing studs for a pace injection (Just Dandy has always been a favourite) to coursing dogs from race backgrounds (I like the look of photofinish) to coursing dogs from classic coursing lines (with a dash of race blood) my current favourite. I think about it alot sad I know but I think you've got to carefully consider your choice. Ps I haven't even any plans to breed so at least when I do I'll have considered every possibility.

 

[*Lesley*]

Someone else unafraid to mix up the lines...If I am not mistaken, young Jeff Hutchings...Purple dogs are racing, red dogs are show, black dogs are working, green dogs are coursing...
Pennymeadow Chase the Ace - Linechaser Info, 4 generations

Inbreeding: 1.0%

M - AF03294203 - 03/08/2005

--G1------

M-Parkstone Buttons

F-Trudys scrumptious of Pennymeadow Pennymeadow - AE00129201 - 04/12/2003

--G2------

M-WCRA +CH of CHAMPS Casaloma Perry'sboy

F-Parkstone Sweet Harmony

M-Kenzed Bobslad - ZO318501Z01

F-Chiltons Lively Lady - AA03837903

--G3------

M-WCRA + FED CH Perry Lane

F-Casaloma Sea Breeze M-Rowangarth Dawn Wind - S506306T01

F-Our Girl of Parkstone

M-Sooty Sam - R04 - 13/08/1991 - Working

F-Mysitc Sight

M-Laguna Lively Lad

F-Tryquill Tiara

--G4------

M-WCRA + FED CH Pippawood Mountain Appollo

F-WRCA + FED CH Black Orbit

M-WCRA Ch Casaloma Sea Pigeon

F-FED + VET CH Papadaro Camilla

M-Hillsdown Fergal

F-Rowangarth Midnight Rose

M-Mithrandir Parneaius

F-Trajax Jay of Makhill

M-Black Lance - P02 - 21/06/1985 - Working

F-Gillscar Soft Whisper - K08 - 22/08/1984 - Working

M-Sooty Sam - R04 - 13/08/1991 - Working

F-Sally Honey - T01 - 25/12/1992 - Working

M-Lilting Laird Of Laguna - TO4

F-Laguna Liberty Lace - TO2

M-CH Pennybeck Silver Sixpence

F-Silver Ash

And guess who's working lines they are...

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Young Jeff Hutchings :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[nigelmcfc]

This is why we value the SS blood so much, 15 healthy daytime rabbits caught in 2 hours or so by Jack and a lurcher(shock horror!!) Most were caught by the dogs after some fine work

To me the important thing is to get out and do it , not talk about it.............