You cant please all the people all the time.

[JudyN]

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You know, it makes sense to me that a well-bred crossbreed/designer dog should cost more than a pedigree. If you breed a litter of pedigrees, you can select the finest and use them (not two siblings, obviously) to produce the next generation. If you breed well-bred labradoodles or cockerpoos, then you can't use the offspring to start the next generation - once the original pair have reached the end of their breeding life, you will need new pedigree dogs. I suppose with your business head on you should aim to breed, say, labradors, poodles and labradoodles.

Of course, if labradoodles and cockerpoos have admirable qualities, it may make sense to develop them so they breed true, i.e. they don't have to be first-generation crosses. That is how other breeds have been developed in the past. But this should be done by knowledgeable breeders, of course.

And then there's the argument that we shouldn't be breeding anyway when there are so many great dogs in rescue centres, but that's a different argument....

 

[Flobo]

Mongrels used to be the norm, some pedigrees as we all know come with breed problems(ie looks over function). The poodle crosses, especially, that we have now are amazing crosses, bright, energetic, totally trainable, and actually proper great 'pets'(imo),(learning the appropriate shorthand I think/hope!)What is wrong with a cross breed? I know people on here are dog lovers over breed perfectionists, but I am really trying not to ramble on about the crufts and the kennel club as it's Saturday night and I've had a glass of wine or two...
Last year at the RSPCA open day, I was talking to one of the women that work there and she said how sad she was that there was so many pedigree dogs there. And yes I agreed with her, sadly a lot of pedigrees are a trend/fashion accessory, or a 'I'd love one of those dogs because they look amazing' , which imo encourages the puppy farms, 'ooh these dogs are the latest trend quick lets breed them..' but then it seems even the poodle crosses have become a viable money maker and probably over bred by the puppy farmers as a consequence... all dogs deserve a whole lot better don't they?...

 

[leashedForLife]

.

Once U breed an F1 generation crossbreed to another F1 crossbreed, U get random assortment of traits.

This is genetics-101, so for those who already know, i apologize for playing Capt. Obvious, but there are also well-intended folks who have NO IDEA what 'hybrid' means in breeding, whether in flowers, fruit, nut-trees, or other plants, or in animals - 2 wild species, domestic / wild crosses, or across domestic breeds.

If i cross a wild pig with a domestic hog, i've created a hybrid. European wild-boar were crossed with American domestic swine to produce bigger trophies for hunters, with wild instincts to let them survive in the wild; they were kept on "game farms" & hunters paid for the privilege of hunting them.
Now, feral boar-hog hybrids are all over 38 of the 48 states of the USA mainland - rooting, breeding, ripping up pastures, cutting up marshes & swamps, & not least of our concerns, sh!tting in our crops - ONE field of spinach on ONE farm cross-contaminated "leaf spinach" at the centralized processing / packing facility, & thousands of ppl got sick, from feral-pig poop in a single field. // Hunters have been known to "import" this disastrously-fecund, highly destructive species across state lines. Hybrid vigor is more than just a theory, in U-S feral hogs!


In domestic breeds, if i mate a Beagle & a Pug, i am cross-breeding 2 well-established dog breeds that breed true; i am also creating a hybrid, & these hybrids are readily recognizable, with clear inherited traits from both parents. Practically all the pups will be fawn, 3/4 of them will have facial masks, & every one i've seen in the flesh or in photos has been countershaded: lighter beneath, darker above. So a pale cream belly & a light fawn body, a light fawn belly & a darker fawn body, etc.
However... if i mate the F1 hybrids, with their neat consistent type - moderately shortened foreface, tail curled but not a corkscrew, ears shorter than a Beagle's & longer than a Pug's, countershaded fawn bodies, mostly masked faces... I get God-only-knows-what in the F2 litter. The F2 pups can be pied, skewbald, tricolor, have corkscrew tails, saber tails, curled tails, Beagle forefaces, Pug accordioned faces, stenotic nares or nice round hound-y nostrils!
They are no longer identifiable as Pug x Beagle crossbreeds, but are random blends of this & that with no consistent appearance.

That's what cross-breeding 2 carefully-maintained separate parent strains gives U: a consistent result, IOW an F1 hybrid of known traits.

- terry

.

 

[JudyN]

.

Once U breed an F1 generation crossbreed to another F1 crossbreed, U get random assortment of traits.

Haven't a lot of pedigrees been developed from a mix of breeds, and 'improved' by introducing a new breed, though? I assume that if you bred the F2 dogs that looked most like the F1s, then bred the F3s that looked most like the F1s, then at some stage they would breed true and could be accepted as a breed.

 

[Mad Murphy]

@Flobo have to agree with you , nothing wrong with a good old mongy dog..had plenty of those in my time.

Also agree with the fashion trend when it comes to pedigrees, when we adopted Benny everybody you met had a beagle. They have all reached the ends of their lives now and I see the trends changing husky types were popular as was the trend for canicross.. That seems to be dying a death now and the poularity of the big East European and Russia herders seems to be growing which is a trend that scares me because these dogs are not pets in the strict sense of the word, they are barely even domestic dogs as they are bred to guard livestock aganst wolves and bears.

When will humans learn that dogs or other animals are not there to be used as fashion accessory or a boost to the ego?

 

[JoanneF]

pedigrees are a trend/fashion accessory, or a 'I'd love one of those dogs because they look amazing' , which imo encourages the puppy farms,

This. And not just with pedigrees but also with a lot of "designer crosses" too. Years ago you would never see certain breeds, now they are everywhere and a lot will have been churned out of puppy farms. Also many people are not prepared to wait for a well bred puppy (pedigree or cross) that may not be born until next year when someone can supply one right now.

But - and this makes me angry too - so called responsible breeders have engineered exaggerated features such as the the flatter face shape in French Bulldogs through selective breeding. And that is sad because until the breed clubs change their standards, competitive people will continue to create these poor deformed animals.

 

[merlina]

Oh flat-faced dogs! Don't get me started...the lives of misery we are allowing breeders to produce.

 

[leashedForLife]

Haven't a lot of pedigrees been developed from a mix of breeds, and 'improved' by introducing a new breed, though?
I assume that if you bred the F2 dogs that looked most like the F1s, then bred the F3s that looked most like the F1s, then at some stage they would breed true and could be accepted as a breed.

.

yes, but it takes some time to accomplish. // In the case of Lab x Poodles, genuinely low-allergen, consistently non-shedding pups from mandatory-groom / low-shed, low-allergen, multiple generation parents have still not been achieved, despite stringent controls & careful breeding.
They began this project in the 1980s in Australia, & still have pups who don't meet the standard born today.

Other crossbreeds & outcrosses have been very successfully stabilized, breeding true predictably - such as the Low-UA Dalmatians, developed from a careful outcross to English Pointer to introduce normal metabolism of purines, & a subsequent backcross program to fix the desired spotting & conformation traits of the Dal breed once more.
Today - & for decades, now - Low-UA Dals are physically impossible to distinguish from "gouty" traditional Dals.

- terry

.

 

[Nanny71]

.

Once U breed an F1 generation crossbreed to another F1 crossbreed, U get random assortment of traits.

This is genetics-101, so for those who already know, i apologize for playing Capt. Obvious, but there are also well-intended folks who have NO IDEA what 'hybrid' means in breeding, whether in flowers, fruit, nut-trees, or other plants, or in animals - 2 wild species, domestic / wild crosses, or across domestic breeds.

If i cross a wild pig with a domestic hog, i've created a hybrid. European wild-boar were crossed with American domestic swine to produce bigger trophies for hunters, with wild instincts to let them survive in the wild; they were kept on "game farms" & hunters paid for the privilege of hunting them.
Now, feral boar-hog hybrids are all over 38 of the 48 states of the USA mainland - rooting, breeding, ripping up pastures, cutting up marshes & swamps, & not least of our concerns, sh!tting in our crops - ONE field of spinach on ONE farm cross-contaminated "leaf spinach" at the centralized processing / packing facility, & thousands of ppl got sick, from feral-pig poop in a single field. // Hunters have been known to "import" this disastrously-fecund, highly destructive species across state lines. Hybrid vigor is more than just a theory, in U-S feral hogs!


In domestic breeds, if i mate a Beagle & a Pug, i am cross-breeding 2 well-established dog breeds that breed true; i am also creating a hybrid, & these hybrids are readily recognizable, with clear inherited traits from both parents. Practically all the pups will be fawn, 3/4 of them will have facial masks, & every one i've seen in the flesh or in photos has been countershaded: lighter beneath, darker above. So a pale cream belly & a light fawn body, a light fawn belly & a darker fawn body, etc.
However... if i mate the F1 hybrids, with their neat consistent type - moderately shortened foreface, tail curled but not a corkscrew, ears shorter than a Beagle's & longer than a Pug's, countershaded fawn bodies, mostly masked faces... I get God-only-knows-what in the F2 litter. The F2 pups can be pied, skewbald, tricolor, have corkscrew tails, saber tails, curled tails, Beagle forefaces, Pug accordioned faces, stenotic nares or nice round hound-y nostrils!
They are no longer identifiable as Pug x Beagle crossbreeds, but are random blends of this & that with no consistent appearance.

That's what cross-breeding 2 carefully-maintained separate parent strains gives U: a consistent result, IOW an F1 hybrid of known traits.

- terry

.

Exactly what I was trying to say

 

[Nanny71]

Haven't a lot of pedigrees been developed from a mix of breeds, and 'improved' by introducing a new breed, though? I assume that if you bred the F2 dogs that looked most like the F1s, then bred the F3s that looked most like the F1s, then at some stage they would breed true and could be accepted as a breed.

With dogs the looks don't always match the temperament

 

[Josie]

My friend picked up a staffy from a gumtree advert. There was no home visit, no care at all really about where the dog was going.
My friend also took for granted that the dog could have behavioural issues (she has children) or health issues.

Luckily for her the dog had a very good temperament and was healthy. This was her 6th home :-( so sad.

 

[JudyN]

yes, but it takes some time to accomplish. // In the case of Lab x Poodles, genuinely low-allergen, consistently non-shedding pups from mandatory-groom / low-shed, low-allergen, multiple generation parents have still not been achieved

It would have to be regarded in the same way as planting a tree seed now, knowing that you would never see the tree reach its full glory - or planning to build a cathedral which wouldn't be completed for a couple of generations. Of course, you then need the motivation to launch into such a venture, and there's also the problem of all the crossbreeds that aren't quite what you were hoping for.

@Nanny71 , yes, of course, selecting for temperament is at least as important, and arguably more so, as selecting based on appearance.

 

[merlina]

"My friend picked up a staffy from a gumtree advert. There was no home visit, no care at all really about where the dog was going.
My friend also took for granted that the dog could have behavioural issues (she has children) or health issues.

Luckily for her the dog had a very good temperament and was healthy. This was her 6th home :-( so sad.

This poor staffy has had a wonderful escape. Unwanted bullbreeds can have terrible fates, used as 'bait dogs'. If I ever find a 'free to good home' ad I will plead with the owner to contact a rescue.

 

[leashedForLife]

With dogs, the looks don't always match the temperament.

.

my Akita bitch as a puppy was cute as a button, & resembled nothing so much as a stuffed toy - specifically, a child's fluffy teddy-bear, with her kitten-soft plush coat, panda-like black & white markings, & dark-brown eyes.
She was ADORABLE. I do not use the term lightly.

She also bit like a fiend with her needle-teeth , was completely unfazed by time-outs or loss of social contact , had a will of spring-steel that re-oriented to her original goal with a snap after any distraction , & a jaw like a bear-trap; I'm 5' 8" & weigh 150#, she was 12-WO & weighed about 15# at the time, & she would do her level damnedest to hang onto anything i attempted to take from her... no growling, just massive persistence & intense physical resistance. // Don't tell me "offer something else"; been there, done it, got nowhere. She was a mule in dog's clothing. I could offer her food, a toy, tug, a flirt-pole... as soon as i reached for the forbidden item, she glommed onto it like a limpet to a rock.
The ONE distraction that really worked, with her? - Ducks. Go figure, a Nordic with a mania for ducks. Live, mobile, waddling or paddling or dabbling. // That's a hard thing to keep on hand, when living in a house with 3 other ppl, as a caregiver for yer landlady.

She snatched gloves right off their wearer's hands so slickly, ppl wouldn't know they were GONE till i caught up, panting, & returned them; the 1st 2 or 3 times, i thought it was accidental - nope. She chose her targets, distracted ppl who were in a hurry, & snagged the glove in passing so fast, i often didn't realize she had one for a city-block or so.
I quickly learned to put her to the OFF side from any stranger approaching us on a sidewalk! - it was winter, everyone was gloved, & she was delighted by her new hobby.

Aside from being a biting monster, completely indifferent to most negative punishers, & a consummate thief - she was self-contained, self-assured, & assertive. NOT a teddy-bear - if there was an anti-teddy, she was the embodiment.
A year later, at 15-MO, the former "teddy bear" was 75# of muscle, cool-headed, deliberate, & she suffered no fools. I should have named her Justice - she judged everything & everyone, every situation, & if she found U wanting, she'd freeze U out. Nothing U could do would win her attention or favor, if she took a dislike to U or distrusted U.

Similar packages also don't mean similar contents - if i was a utility employee & met a Siberian in the yard of a house i needed to visit, so long as s/he met me on friendly terms at the gate, i'd go in. // U couldn't pay me enuf to enter a yard with an Akita whose owners were not there, to introduce us - even if s/he was delighted with me OUTSIDE the fence, within & without are very distinct worlds, & boundaries matter to Akitas. These distinctions between breeds who look very similar are important.

- terry

.

 

[Josie]

"My friend picked up a staffy from a gumtree advert. There was no home visit, no care at all really about where the dog was going.
My friend also took for granted that the dog could have behavioural issues (she has children) or health issues.

Luckily for her the dog had a very good temperament and was healthy. This was her 6th home :-( so sad.

This poor staffy has had a wonderful escape. Unwanted bullbreeds can have terrible fates, used as 'bait dogs'. If I ever find a 'free to good home' ad I will plead with the owner to contact a rescue.

She was VERY lucky.