A Question For You Showers!!

[masta]

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I think that the assumption that all show whippets are over weight and over size is not true. Yes we have big dogs in the ring as you do in the field. But we also have many that are correct size whippets that are very successful in the ring, granted more so in *bitches than dogs.Another point is that the height and weight requirements of track raced whippets are in my opinion no different to breeding a 'type' for the show ring. Dogs of all breeds have been bred for years to fore fill the requirements & pleasure of humans, breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure. 

A well constructed, fit show whippet will be able to work in the field regardless of meeting racing requirements for height. Do track racing rules have different weight categories? If it has is this because we have always had variations in types with the breed according to the breeder’s preference and possibly the area you live and work them? 

When speaking to a person at a show recently they said, I hope he doesn't go over size as I want to race him. If he did go over size by 1/2 inch would this mean he was any less able to work? No he would still be able to do the job he was actually bred for which wasn't racing round a track chasing a stuffed toy.

Look at the picture, I can see difference in types and size dating back many years.

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"breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure".

i think racing is less artificial than parading round a ring ie as already stated the breed were originally created to hunt and race, years of selected breeding to produce a type suited to those activities

 

[doris]

I think that the assumption that all show whippets are over weight and over size is not true. Yes we have big dogs in the ring as you do in the field. But we also have many that are correct size whippets that are very successful in the ring, granted more so in *bitches than dogs.Another point is that the height and weight requirements of track raced whippets are in my opinion no different to breeding a 'type' for the show ring. Dogs of all breeds have been bred for years to fore fill the requirements & pleasure of humans, breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure. 

A well constructed, fit show whippet will be able to work in the field regardless of meeting racing requirements for height. Do track racing rules have different weight categories? If it has is this because we have always had variations in types with the breed according to the breeder’s preference and possibly the area you live and work them? 

When speaking to a person at a show recently they said, I hope he doesn't go over size as I want to race him. If he did go over size by 1/2 inch would this mean he was any less able to work? No he would still be able to do the job he was actually bred for which wasn't racing round a track chasing a stuffed toy.

Look at the picture, I can see difference in types and size dating back many years.

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"breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure".

i think racing is less artificial than parading round a ring ie as already stated the breed were originally created to hunt and race, years of selected breeding to produce a type suited to those activities

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I think the fact that the breed has been created means that whether we show or race or hunt, it is all artificial, we have produced these types to suit the activities we wish to persue - after all, wild dogs don't look like whippets :- " :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

I think the fact that the breed has been created means that whether we show or race or hunt, it is all artificial, we have produced these types to suit the activities we wish to persue - after all, wild dogs don't look like whippets :- "  :thumbsup:

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Yes, but the original breed was created by selecting the best hunters. Then when they started to be raced, the fastest dogs were bred from. The type was determined by the dogs' ability to do their job. Our original standard was created to describe the already existing dog. When the breed was pretty much divided into the racing, lure coursing and show lines, they inevitably started to look slightly different, not necessarily because their look was particularly better for what ever they were used. For instance if one very fast dog would have had lets say gay tail, he would have sired lots of litters and gay tail would have become the norm in racing line. That would not necessarily mean that gay tail makes the dog faster. It is just a trait that show people would not want in their lines. Show people thrive for perfection of conformation = dogs with correct skeletal structure, as well as traits that make the breed. Like ear size, shape and set, coat length etc.

Most dogs will chase small animals, and Whippets given chance and encouragement will most likely also catch them, but how would they perform in competition with other Whippets cannot be guessed unless they actually compete. Just as all Whippets can run, but that does not mean they could win race. My first Whippet Marlie, lovely show bitch was allowed to have a run in races, although she loved it and ran with passion, she was always last - long long way last :b

Same way, at least here in OZ, a mediocre dog can be taken to small country shows with very little competition, and can place well, even get his tittle if his owner perseveres.

I am sure that some of our show dogs would run well, however many are too long in the body. My friends in Europe, who have been racing their dogs can say which dog has a potential and which not, just by looking at him. The length of the body being particularly important.

Photo of my Marlie, show champion but failed racer :wub:

 

[seaspot_run]

The weight-graded system of racing in the UK makes it well-nigh impossible to have a dog who performs at the highest levels in both racing and showing. Here in the USA, we have no weight restrictions or grades (except for a very minor sideline in weight grade which a few clubs are doing)....we have height disqualifications which are applicable to straight racing, lure coursing, and showing--and they are the same. Therefore, it is much easier over here to have dogs who are good at all three. The specialist programs still churn out the most consistent top winners, but versatility is a reachable goal here because we aren't weight-restricted in racing.

I'm not saying that our system is BETTER...just that it's easier over here to have an all-around dog. I am very aware that some of our top competitors would be very shocking in size and mass, not to mention some aspects of "type", to WCRA and show people in the UK. But the fact remains that is is possible here to have a dog who is a champion in all three. It's rare, but it happens far more often than in the UK.

I compete in all three venues with every single one of my Whippets, and we have several organizations which sponsor straight racing, and two which sponsor lure coursing.

The field is a bit different in each, but I can literally show my dogs and win championship points on them one weekend and go out the next weekend to a race or lure course and do well there with the same dog without drastically altering their weight or conditioning. Here, every single dog who is eligible to be shown is also eligible to compete in racing or lure coursing. While many of them wouldn't be stellar, they wouldn't be disqualified from competition based on being too tall or too heavy.

My primary concern is to produce a show quality dog with good racing and coursing temperament who fits the standard well enough, and then secondary to that, I like a bit more speed than the average show Whippet has. There are some compromises that have to be made from a show ring standpoint in order to get that dog. Moderate to slightly straighter-than-ideal angulation fore-and-aft, hipbones as high as the top of the shoulder blades, at least decent length of body, and a very strong back are key to getting a bit of racing speed in a show line. In order to win with a dog built like this, they must show very well, and have beautiful head and neck properties, and very true gait. The big, splashy, sporting breed side gait with the kick-out rears that is very popular here at the highest levels of breed ring competition is seldom found on a fast racer, so you have to emphasize perfect soundness on the up-and-back to make up for it.

It's a tough challenge, but one that several kennels over here have excelled at.

I don't think that a dog should have to be a meet winner to be called a good racer. There are many fine races in lower grades between dogs who are fast enough and much faster than any other breed of comparable size, and which are real races run by racers who have good style and racing habits. Only one dog can win a meet, but a good race meet will have a number of dogs who race well and hard and can make for exciting finishes.

To discount these dogs is like saying that dogs who got their JW or qualified for Crufts or won many classes at the championship level but never got 3 CC's aren't show quality.

Karen Lee

 

[seaspot_run]

I think that the assumption that all show whippets are over weight and over size is not true. Yes we have big dogs in the ring as you do in the field. But we also have many that are correct size whippets that are very successful in the ring, granted more so in *bitches than dogs.Another point is that the height and weight requirements of track raced whippets are in my opinion no different to breeding a 'type' for the show ring. Dogs of all breeds have been bred for years to fore fill the requirements & pleasure of humans, breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure. 

A well constructed, fit show whippet will be able to work in the field regardless of meeting racing requirements for height. Do track racing rules have different weight categories? If it has is this because we have always had variations in types with the breed according to the breeder’s preference and possibly the area you live and work them? 

When speaking to a person at a show recently they said, I hope he doesn't go over size as I want to race him. If he did go over size by 1/2 inch would this mean he was any less able to work? No he would still be able to do the job he was actually bred for which wasn't racing round a track chasing a stuffed toy.

Look at the picture, I can see difference in types and size dating back many years.

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"breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure".

i think racing is less artificial than parading round a ring ie as already stated the breed were originally created to hunt and race, years of selected breeding to produce a type suited to those activities

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I think the fact that the breed has been created means that whether we show or race or hunt, it is all artificial, we have produced these types to suit the activities we wish to persue - after all, wild dogs don't look like whippets :- " :thumbsup:

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Alison makes a really good point. Unless you are breeding Pariah dogs or dingos, it's ALL artificial.

It's what the fanciers want. A Pekingese which has a perfect coat. size, and head and is an ideal lap dog and a great companion is JUST as functional for its breed as a Labrador that waits patiently by its owner's side until instructed to jump in the water and bring back a shot bird.

In both cases,the dog is doing something which would be unnatural to the wolf or wild dog, but which is an expression of its artificial "function" for which it was bred.

 

[seaspot_run]

With regard to hunting, my fastest two racers had no "take" and were therefore lousy hunters, but my three BEST hunters were decent lure coursers, not at all fast in racing, but had that good hunting instinct where they had the patience to work the prey or even stalk it stealthily, and then they had a killing and punishing "take", so for me, I don't see any connection between being a speedster and being a clever and efficient hunter of prey animals.

I think it's 90% mental as almost all Whippets are fast enough to catch a bunny rabbit if they are released withing good sight range of it. Not all are clever hunters and good killers, though.

 

[Seraphina]

I'm not saying that our system is BETTER...just that it's easier over here to have an all-around dog.  I am very aware that some of our top competitors would be very shocking in size and mass, not to mention some aspects of "type", to WCRA and show people in the UK. But the fact remains that is is possible here to have a dog who is a champion in all three.  It's rare, but it happens far more often than in the UK.
It's a tough challenge, but one that several kennels over here have excelled at.

Karen Lee

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I would like to know how the times that your dogs in the USA are achieving would compare to those dogs that are only being raced, like the dogs in UK and in Europe. Of-course, if in the USA the dogs that are competing in racing, also do lure coursing and are all shown, you have a pretty level playing field. My friends in Europe who only race their dogs, do lot of road work with them, their dogs have very powerful muscles but are very lean. Everything revolves about getting the dogs ready for the track, and they are racing champions. But they are too lean for the show ring. Some of them are very nice and do well in the ring, once they are rested and put bit of weight on. In this process, which takes about 6 months, they also loose bit of the muscle tone. With their racing muscles their rear does not look right.

But of course if i raced my Marlie against other show Whippets, maybe she would win

 

[masta]

I think that the assumption that all show whippets are over weight and over size is not true. Yes we have big dogs in the ring as you do in the field. But we also have many that are correct size whippets that are very successful in the ring, granted more so in *bitches than dogs.Another point is that the height and weight requirements of track raced whippets are in my opinion no different to breeding a 'type' for the show ring. Dogs of all breeds have been bred for years to fore fill the requirements & pleasure of humans, breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure. 

A well constructed, fit show whippet will be able to work in the field regardless of meeting racing requirements for height. Do track racing rules have different weight categories? If it has is this because we have always had variations in types with the breed according to the breeder’s preference and possibly the area you live and work them? 

When speaking to a person at a show recently they said, I hope he doesn't go over size as I want to race him. If he did go over size by 1/2 inch would this mean he was any less able to work? No he would still be able to do the job he was actually bred for which wasn't racing round a track chasing a stuffed toy.

Look at the picture, I can see difference in types and size dating back many years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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"breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure".

i think racing is less artificial than parading round a ring ie as already stated the breed were originally created to hunt and race, years of selected breeding to produce a type suited to those activities

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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I think the fact that the breed has been created means that whether we show or race or hunt, it is all artificial, we have produced these types to suit the activities we wish to persue - after all, wild dogs don't look like whippets :- " :thumbsup:

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:blink: i think that post says it all. Whippets were created to hunt all the inherent traits through years of selective breeding have been put in for that reason. racing and lure coursing mimic hunting showing does not in any shape or form resemble hunting.

when a whippet is in the ring it is representing the "breed" ie a dog bred to hunt---

taken from the breed standard -- Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for SPEED AND WORK. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

I wonder how many show breeders have that in mind when breeding.

quote--E.L. Hagedoorn, a Dutch consulting geneticist to dog breed societies around the world, believed the show ring would ruin working dog breeds, and time has proven him right. As he noted in his 1939 book:

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

 

[*Mark*]

I think that the assumption that all show whippets are over weight and over size is not true. Yes we have big dogs in the ring as you do in the field. But we also have many that are correct size whippets that are very successful in the ring, granted more so in *bitches than dogs.Another point is that the height and weight requirements of track raced whippets are in my opinion no different to breeding a 'type' for the show ring. Dogs of all breeds have been bred for years to fore fill the requirements & pleasure of humans, breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure. 

A well constructed, fit show whippet will be able to work in the field regardless of meeting racing requirements for height. Do track racing rules have different weight categories? If it has is this because we have always had variations in types with the breed according to the breeder’s preference and possibly the area you live and work them? 

When speaking to a person at a show recently they said, I hope he doesn't go over size as I want to race him. If he did go over size by 1/2 inch would this mean he was any less able to work? No he would still be able to do the job he was actually bred for which wasn't racing round a track chasing a stuffed toy.

Look at the picture, I can see difference in types and size dating back many years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

"breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure".

i think racing is less artificial than parading round a ring ie as already stated the breed were originally created to hunt and race, years of selected breeding to produce a type suited to those activities

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think the fact that the breed has been created means that whether we show or race or hunt, it is all artificial, we have produced these types to suit the activities we wish to persue - after all, wild dogs don't look like whippets :- " :thumbsup:

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:blink: i think that post says it all. Whippets were created to hunt all the inherent traits through years of selective breeding have been put in for that reason. racing and lure coursing mimic hunting showing does not in any shape or form resemble hunting.

when a whippet is in the ring it is representing the "breed" ie a dog bred to hunt---

taken from the breed standard -- Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for SPEED AND WORK. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

I wonder how many show breeders have that in mind when breeding.

quote--E.L. Hagedoorn, a Dutch consulting geneticist to dog breed societies around the world, believed the show ring would ruin working dog breeds, and time has proven him right. As he noted in his 1939 book:

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

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I think you have a very short sighted view of show people if you think when we breed we don't aim to do so with the breed standard in mind.

If you consider the breed over many years I would think that showing whippets started around the same time as lure or track racing.

Of cause showing is artificial, it’s a beauty contest at the end of the day, and so? what’s wrong with that?

As for showing been more of a menace to the breed, that is your opinion, all you need to do is never breed, own or work any whippet that might have any show whippets in the pedigree, your concerns are resolved.

All judges of whippets will look at the dogs with 'utility in mind' could the dog catch a rabbit?

Yes it is a competitive game, it that not true for racing? Chasing a rabbit is also competitive between rabbit & dog, slightly more at stake for the rabbit!

None of our dogs, working or show would choose to do what we ask of them, they would be very happy to sit in front of the fire all day and go to the food and eat when hungry.

It is all a game/hobby to satisfy human interaction with dogs. No one dose it as the only means of supplying food for the dinner table.

 

[anniewhippet]

And there is recognition of both at most breed club shows with the racing, coursing classes often entered by dogs which have or can compete in these and the 'beauty' classes. There are quite a few people out there who compete and belong to racing clubs, some also 'beauty' show too as briefly touched on in a previous post. You only need to look in the index of this, and other forums, to see the 'overlap' of what is one breed with differing functions.

I can see the argument for 'show' dogs versus 'working' dogs as I have working ESS but there comes a time when the continuation of the breed, bearing in mind the Breed Standard, is needed. After all my working ESS of today is getting less and less oportunity to do what my original one of 30+ years ago was bred for in todays PC society. For example Foxhounds, Irish Wolfhounds......if these weren't shown, and bred to the BS, what would have become of them?

And we are getting more PC everyday.......

 

[posh totty]

to keep the post on topic, it seems that very rarely a dog can have a working career and also show too? jeff at pennymeadow has acheived this and beejays bean has shown they can be racing dogs and also show dogs, and i think 2 others were mentioned as to being able to do dual purpose activities and still be successfull, interesting to read its more common in the states where uk bloodlines heavily influence? :thumbsup:

it is our choice what we do with our dogs as lifestyle and beliefs in many will differ to some very wide angles, this is life , what ever way we look at it we have chosen the whippet due to the qualities WE personally feel are 2nd to none

 

[masta]

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Mark, i can only speak as i see, lets not kid ourselfs you only have to watch crufts each year to to see how working breeds have deterioated and i could if i was really mean troll the web for pictures of working breeds being shown that would prove my point look at the show greyhounds its pityful, i dont have short sighted opion of show breeders persay i myself have been involved in showing (not dogs)

i dont believe "All judges of whippets will look at the dogs with 'utility in mind' could the dog catch a rabbit?" because lets face it that can not be judged by looking at the dog which is my original point!

Your point "all you need to do is never breed, own or work any whippet that might have any show whippets in the pedigree, your concerns are resolved". this statement tells me we are a millions miles away from understanding each other, i would happliy buy my next pup from a show breeder if i found one breeding to the breeds true strengths, i race and lure course agianst show bred dogs who are excellent, i think your statement points to were we are heading unfortunately

 

[seaspot_run]

I'm not saying that our system is BETTER...just that it's easier over here to have an all-around dog.  I am very aware that some of our top competitors would be very shocking in size and mass, not to mention some aspects of "type", to WCRA and show people in the UK. But the fact remains that is is possible here to have a dog who is a champion in all three.  It's rare, but it happens far more often than in the UK.

It's a tough challenge, but one that several kennels over here have excelled at.

Karen Lee

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I would like to know how the times that your dogs in the USA are achieving would compare to those dogs that are only being raced, like the dogs in UK and in Europe. Of-course, if in the USA the dogs that are competing in racing, also do lure coursing and are all shown, you have a pretty level playing field. My friends in Europe who only race their dogs, do lot of road work with them, their dogs have very powerful muscles but are very lean. Everything revolves about getting the dogs ready for the track, and they are racing champions. But they are too lean for the show ring. Some of them are very nice and do well in the ring, once they are rested and put bit of weight on. In this process, which takes about 6 months, they also loose bit of the muscle tone. With their racing muscles their rear does not look right.

But of course if i raced my Marlie against other show Whippets, maybe she would win

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Without a doubt the top dogs in racing over here are conditioned at a level which would make them too lean and muscular to do well under most judges, but some people do race a dog first and then recondition them for the show ring. Some dogs have naturally smooth, hard, flat muscle and they don't bunch up or get too bulky when they are in shape for racing. They just need to be shown at a slightly higher weight. I don't want to give the impression that there are lots of dogs who are capable of being tops in racing AND showing, because there aren't. But we have an easier time of striving for that because we don't have restrictions on what can be raced or coursed that do not correspond to what can be shown. With lure coursing, showbred dogs who are conditioned and just taken to a lot of lure trials are very often to be found quite high in the rankings. You don't need to have blistering straightaway speed to excel at that. Most of the top lure coursing dogs over here have some mixture of racing blood and show/dual blood, but the playing field in coursing is extremely level and dogs really do go back and forth from the show ring to the coursing fields and can do very well at both at the same time. I don't find that there are many showbred dogs who have lost their instincts to chase an artificial lure. Most run clean as well. So, the instinct has not been lost in show lines.

Here, we race the 200 yard distance. It would probably requires some math and metric conversion to figure out what the speed of our dogs is relative to yours. Our top straight racing dogs are capable of doing about 11-11.1 over 200 yards (and a number can break 11 seconds), and the fastest showbred dogs in racing run in the low 12's,maybe 11.8 at best).

We don't have sponsored hunting competitions here except for a few places in the West, and even then, it's still artificial because they are running them on Jackrabbits, which are much faster and larger than the typical game that the English Whippet was bred to hunt, and it's also being done over terrain that is different. It's done in very arid areas and ranchland and there is barbed wire at times the dogs must learn to go under. Most show people don't want to risk their dogs at that sport. The top open field coursing dogs over here are going to be dogs from racing lines, and are usually going to be fairly large dogs, as well. Speed is very necessary because they have to run the jacks down in open terrain.

Nobody specifically breeds Whippets for hunting purposes over here. Despite that, most of mine are very game and have high prey-drive, but since I don't hunt myself, they have to free-lance. I imagine that if they had been with an owner who liked hunting and brought them up to hunt, they'd be all right at it. They certainly kill plenty of small game without my permission.

We have the same split over here in the the gun dog breeds as you see anywhere. The working gun dog lines are different in appearance than what is shown. Hunting ability is not found to the same extent in show lines. But show lines can often make for better (or should I say--EASIER) pet dogs for the average owner.

Anyhow, my main point is--we DO have a show race split here, and in some places it's a sizable one. But at least every single dog in our ring is ELIGIBLE to race, and I don't think that's remotely the case in the UK, due to weight restrictions.

Karen

 

[neave]

Years ago when i was knee high to a grass hopper! My dad had two whipppets which worked, raced and showed. Barnesmore Summer Wine and Buckpool Loon of Mine. He worked them with ferrets and often went out lamping. He ran his own racing club and it Buckie nothing too serious just for fun and the dogs would run out of traps chasing the lure with no problems. Both dogs did pretty well in the show ring aswell, winning rec green stars across in Ireland and many placings in Scotland too.

The dogs we have now will course rabbits if they see ones while out walking but we have never tried them with running on a lure YET! and they have all done realy well in the show ring. :thumbsup:

 

[seaspot_run]

My English import from Bluestreak, btw, was a natural at lure coursing and racing. While she was not any better than a Grade C straight racer, she was at her prime a Grade B on the oval track (the bend), and she cleaned UP in lure coursing until I got tired of coursing her due to the difficulty of catching the little devil after the course was done! :rant:

But despite not having ancestors who were titled in coursing or racing close up in her very showbred pedigree, she grasped the concept of racing/coursing very quickly.

I believe the situation in gun dogs isn't at all the same. It's not that the dogs in the ring would be physically incapable of hunting. It's that they have very often lost the genetic mentality than makes for a good hunter.

I just don't think this is the case in Whippets. I think most of them take well still to coursing, racing, and still have high prey drive and this can be found in all the lines, even the the most foofy of showbred foo-foo's. The difference is in the achievable top speed, which is clearly much greater on average in the lines bred specifically FOR racing speed.

But that doesn't mean that showbred Whippets are no longer capable of racing. They certainly can race. The vast majority of them love to race and will race hard given a chance. They just don't beat the best dogs from the racing lines.

It's important to make sure that you don't lose that racing/coursing instinct by at least testing your stock at it. I have eliminated any bitch from my breeding program who doesn't chase a lure and run clean. It's ok with me if they aren't speedburners, but they have to demonstrate that they haven't lost the mentality.

Karen

 

[dessie]

Of course the other way of looking at the question is that maybe not a lot of people who show their dogs WANT to work them or vice versa.

 

[quintessence]

I would love to do so much more with my dogs than I do but am limited by time. Showing is my first love and that is the path I have always taken. I have to work in order to fund my hobby, and there are many shows I would like to go to but am unable to. I do not have the time to consider doing anything else, even though I would love to try both lure coursing and racing. I wish I was able to do more but it's not to be, however, I know Dylan is so much faster than Sparky, who himself is no slouch, and I would so love to see him have a go at lure coursing, but there are only so many hours in a day and all that I have are filled.

Many of my friends who show have dogs who often catch a bunny or two on their walks, you can't ask for more than that.

Jenny

 

[Gill Andrew]

My first whippet was bought as my husband wanted to have a dog which could go lamping. A friend suggested I showed him and from that time, ALL my dogs have been pets first but have also been able to hunt as well as win in the show ring. I had a RCC winning black (show bred) who was absolutely LETHAL with foxes.

There have been very many well known kennels who have produced both dual show/coursing whippets - Ballagan, Tweseldown, Martinsell, Moonlake, Chyton. Shoalingam - the list could go on and on.

Just my own opinion, but I think you could draw a bit a of a comparison between "race bred" whippets versus "show/coursing bred" whippets by thinking of them in terms of racehorses - An out and out short distance sprinter would have a hard job to win a 3 mile chase. It takes a lot of strength and endurance to bring down and hold a full sized hare (illegal now of course!!) and just maybe a sprint bred dog would lack the size and strength. One of my current, successful, show dogs loves being able to chase the lure but unfortunately there are very few lure coursing meetings down in the depths of the South West.

To me, there is no better sight than one of my dogs doing what comes so naturally - pitting his wits against natural prey. To see them twisting and turning in full flight showing all their agility and balance is amazing.

Gill

 

[posh totty]

My first whippet was bought as my husband wanted to have a dog which could go lamping.  A friend suggested I showed him and from that time, ALL my dogs have been pets first but have also been able to hunt as well as win in the show ring.  I had a RCC winning black (show bred) who was absolutely LETHAL with foxes. 
There have been very many well known kennels who have produced both dual show/coursing whippets - Ballagan, Tweseldown, Martinsell, Moonlake, Chyton. Shoalingam - the list could go on and on.

Just my own opinion, but I think you could draw a bit a of a comparison between "race bred" whippets versus "show/coursing bred" whippets by thinking of them in terms of racehorses - An out and out short distance sprinter would have a hard job to win a 3 mile chase.  It takes a lot of strength and endurance to bring down and hold a full sized hare (illegal now of course!!) and just maybe a sprint bred dog would lack the size and strength.  One of my current, successful, show dogs loves being able to chase the lure but unfortunately there are very few lure coursing meetings down in the depths of the South West.

To me, there is no better sight than one of my dogs doing what comes so naturally - pitting his wits against natural prey.  To see them twisting and turning in full flight showing all their agility and balance is amazing.

Gill

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well done , black beautiful and showing!!! do you mind me asking what was his breeding? :thumbsup: it is good to see whippets can still do all activities and still get show awards too, the beauty contest comment is true , we are all paying for that persons opinion on the day , however we all know we take the best dog home

time money personal belief/choice are all factors to what we choose to do with our dogs, we are all equal to have own opinions too as to what we chose to do? i find it hard sometimes to take my working head off when trying to show, what i personally like isnt perhaps going to be anothers view for our own reasons?

i think threads like this are useful to see what lines are doing what and to what degree? and also others new to the reed can see what others are doing with their dogs and maybe have a go at some of the activities too :thumbsup:

if anyone has any pics of show winning working/coursing whippets please could you post them ? also racing show winners would be good too :thumbsup:

 

[posh totty]

My English import from Bluestreak, btw, was a natural at lure coursing and racing.  While she was not any better than a Grade C straight racer, she was at her prime a Grade B on the oval track (the bend), and she cleaned UP in lure coursing until I got tired of coursing her due to the difficulty of catching the little devil after the course was done! :rant:
But despite not having ancestors who were titled in coursing or racing close up in her very showbred pedigree, she grasped the concept of racing/coursing very quickly.

I believe the situation in gun dogs isn't at all the same.  It's not that the dogs in the ring would be physically incapable of hunting.  It's that they have very often lost the genetic mentality than makes for a good hunter.

I just don't think this is the case in Whippets. I think most of them take well still to coursing, racing, and still have high prey drive and this can be found in all the lines, even the the most foofy of showbred foo-foo's.  The difference is in the achievable top speed, which is clearly much greater on average in the lines bred specifically FOR racing speed.

But that doesn't mean that showbred Whippets are no longer capable of racing.  They certainly can race.  The vast majority of them love to race and will race hard given a chance.  They just don't beat the best dogs from the racing lines.

It's important to make sure that you don't lose that racing/coursing instinct by at least testing your stock at it.  I have eliminated any bitch from my breeding program who doesn't chase a lure and run clean.  It's ok with me if they aren't speedburners, but they have to demonstrate that they haven't lost the mentality.

Karen

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i think this is a highly honourable , and responsible thing to do :thumbsup: am i correct in thinking it is you whom bred surreyhills , the witching hour? apologies if name is correct, i have seen this dog run at EAWWC very well :thumbsup: