A Question For You Showers!!

[midlanderkeith]

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My first whippet was bought as my husband wanted to have a dog which could go lamping.  A friend suggested I showed him and from that time, ALL my dogs have been pets first but have also been able to hunt as well as win in the show ring.  I had a RCC winning black (show bred) who was absolutely LETHAL with foxes. 
There have been very many well known kennels who have produced both dual show/coursing whippets - Ballagan, Tweseldown, Martinsell, Moonlake, Chyton. Shoalingam - the list could go on and on.

Just my own opinion, but I think you could draw a bit a of a comparison between "race bred" whippets versus "show/coursing bred" whippets by thinking of them in terms of racehorses - An out and out short distance sprinter would have a hard job to win a 3 mile chase.  It takes a lot of strength and endurance to bring down and hold a full sized hare (illegal now of course!!) and just maybe a sprint bred dog would lack the size and strength.  One of my current, successful, show dogs loves being able to chase the lure but unfortunately there are very few lure coursing meetings down in the depths of the South West.

To me, there is no better sight than one of my dogs doing what comes so naturally - pitting his wits against natural prey.  To see them twisting and turning in full flight showing all their agility and balance is amazing.

Gill

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full flight, twisting n turning, nowt better, worked night n day

 

[Pennymeadow Whippets]

Pennymeadow Skywalker & Pennymeadow Skydiver do their bit in the show ring & are just as much at home in the field :thumbsup:

Also Pennymeadow True Blue litter brother of Pennymeadow Blackjack also likes a bit of live quarry (pic pre ban)

 

[nigelmcfc]

Here`s a show dog that works , Jack had a fair bit of success when he was with Jeff .

Although a successful show dog - he prefers to work and work very well

Not just catching the odd rabbit here and there , but working all day with the ferrets marking bushing up and most importantly catching, in all weathers . That is what a true worker should be capable of .

 

[beaker]

i try to keep mine as dual/multi purpose as possible but there just isn't enough time in the year to everything well, so i tend to concentrate on one thing with one dog at a time.

as a pup Oto was doing his "training", he went to ringcraft when he was between 3 and 6 months, then at six months he started to do the odd open show, his first he was best pup in breed and best of breed at, he had a few more wins and places at opens, then at around 10/11 months old he came out of the ring and learnt his craft on the track and with his dad behind a few bunnies,

he spent the next season racing at club level and did ok concidering his owner really didn't have a clue :b despite this he was in the top 10 at the club that year.

then during the winter months he did some lure coursing and over the 2003/2004 season was the top overall lure courser

while doing all this he attended a few champ shows with a few wins and qualified for crufts (again his owner was a newbie at this and still clueless :b ) he was placed at crufts twice.

all the while (time and energy pemitting) he picked off bunnies for fun, though i've never been a serious worker so he didn't get many opportunties

and if all goes to plan i'll be doing the same things with his son :thumbsup:

 

[nigelmcfc]

I think that the assumption that all show whippets are over weight and over size is not true. Yes we have big dogs in the ring as you do in the field. But we also have many that are correct size whippets that are very successful in the ring, granted more so in *bitches than dogs.Another point is that the height and weight requirements of track raced whippets are in my opinion no different to breeding a 'type' for the show ring. Dogs of all breeds have been bred for years to fore fill the requirements & pleasure of humans, breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure. 

A well constructed, fit show whippet will be able to work in the field regardless of meeting racing requirements for height. Do track racing rules have different weight categories? If it has is this because we have always had variations in types with the breed according to the breeder’s preference and possibly the area you live and work them? 

When speaking to a person at a show recently they said, I hope he doesn't go over size as I want to race him. If he did go over size by 1/2 inch would this mean he was any less able to work? No he would still be able to do the job he was actually bred for which wasn't racing round a track chasing a stuffed toy.

Look at the picture, I can see difference in types and size dating back many years.

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"breeding for showing is no less important or artificial than running round a track, it is for human pleasure".

i think racing is less artificial than parading round a ring ie as already stated the breed were originally created to hunt and race, years of selected breeding to produce a type suited to those activities

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I think the fact that the breed has been created means that whether we show or race or hunt, it is all artificial, we have produced these types to suit the activities we wish to persue - after all, wild dogs don't look like whippets :- " :thumbsup:

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:blink: i think that post says it all. Whippets were created to hunt all the inherent traits through years of selective breeding have been put in for that reason. racing and lure coursing mimic hunting showing does not in any shape or form resemble hunting.

when a whippet is in the ring it is representing the "breed" ie a dog bred to hunt---

taken from the breed standard -- Balanced combination of muscular power and strength with elegance and grace of outline. Built for SPEED AND WORK. All forms of exaggeration should be avoided.

I wonder how many show breeders have that in mind when breeding.

quote--E.L. Hagedoorn, a Dutch consulting geneticist to dog breed societies around the world, believed the show ring would ruin working dog breeds, and time has proven him right. As he noted in his 1939 book:

"In the production of economically useful animals, the show ring is more of a menace than an aid to breeding. Once fancy points are introduced into the standard of perfection, the breeders will give more attention to those easily judged qualities than to the more important qualities that do not happen to be of such a nature that we can evaluate them at shows. Showing has nothing to do with utility at all, it is simply a competitive game."

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I think you have a very short sighted view of show people if you think when we breed we don't aim to do so with the breed standard in mind.

If you consider the breed over many years I would think that showing whippets started around the same time as lure or track racing.

Of cause showing is artificial, it’s a beauty contest at the end of the day, and so? what’s wrong with that?

As for showing been more of a menace to the breed, that is your opinion, all you need to do is never breed, own or work any whippet that might have any show whippets in the pedigree, your concerns are resolved.

All judges of whippets will look at the dogs with 'utility in mind' could the dog catch a rabbit?

Yes it is a competitive game, it that not true for racing? Chasing a rabbit is also competitive between rabbit & dog, slightly more at stake for the rabbit!

None of our dogs, working or show would choose to do what we ask of them, they would be very happy to sit in front of the fire all day and go to the food and eat when hungry.

It is all a game/hobby to satisfy human interaction with dogs. No one dose it as the only means of supplying food for the dinner table.

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It might be a game but it is done for a reason. ask the landowners who ring me to thin out their rabbit populations, it also puts healthy organic meat in the dogs bowl and on your plate . I don`t think my dogs would be happy to sit in front of a fire all day, given the chance they would be out on their own hunting

 

[posh totty]

lol nigel cant imagine mine sitting or laying about either !!! (w00t)

 

[Seraphina]

None of our dogs, working or show would choose to do what we ask of them, they would be very happy to sit in front of the fire all day and go to the food and eat when hungry.

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(w00t) You must be joking. None of my dogs would be happy to spend their days curled up in front of the fire. Over the years all my dogs had the choice to sit inside or run/hunt around my property, and while they certainly come in to rest, they just love the outdoors. I would not say my dogs love showing, but many like the day out, meeting their doggy and human friends. The few minutes in the ring is just an unimportant tiny bit of the experience for them.

Going to race meetings with my friends and seeing how excited their dogs get when we got closer to the track, leaves me in no doubt these dogs love it. Anyway, there is no way dogs would run fast enough to win if they did not want to. That is not something you can train them to do.

 

[Seraphina]

Maybe we should clarify what exactly do we mean by a "show quality dog" and "racing dog".

To me "show quality" that means a dog that can be shown in large championship shows and has a good chance of being placed. Successfull show dog is a dog that regularly places in large champ shows.

While "racing dog" IMO would be dog capable of keeping up with the big shots of racing.

 

[doris]

(w00t)   You must be joking.  None of my dogs would be happy to spend their days curled up in front of the fire. 

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Erm, you're not in England in the middle of a freezing December, are you :- " :lol: Today, I think the vast majority of whippets would be curled up in front of the fire if they had the chance - I know mine are :thumbsup:

 

[midlanderkeith]

:- "

(w00t)   You must be joking.  None of my dogs would be happy to spend their days curled up in front of the fire.  

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Erm, you're not in England in the middle of a freezing December, are you :- " :lol: Today, I think the vast majority of whippets would be curled up in front of the fire if they had the chance - I know mine are :thumbsup:

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Erm, mine wouldnt, with pictures to prove :- "

 

[Seraphina]

(w00t)   You must be joking.  None of my dogs would be happy to spend their days curled up in front of the fire. 

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Erm, you're not in England in the middle of a freezing December, are you :- " :lol: Today, I think the vast majority of whippets would be curled up in front of the fire if they had the chance - I know mine are :thumbsup:

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:b No, not in this moment, but even when we lived in Europe the dogs enjoyed good run in the snow

 

[quintessence]

(w00t)   You must be joking.  None of my dogs would be happy to spend their days curled up in front of the fire.  

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Erm, you're not in England in the middle of a freezing December, are you :- " :lol: Today, I think the vast majority of whippets would be curled up in front of the fire if they had the chance - I know mine are :thumbsup:

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It's been dangerous to be out with the dogs on these cold freezing mornings this week as I learnt to my cost on Monday. From now on my main priority is to keep safe, keep upright and keep out of the A&E Department. The dogs do not appear to have a problem curled up on the sofa and we will go onto the fields when it is reasonable and safe for everyone. Tesco and Asda are open 24 hours so it's not imperative we catch our dinner.

Jenny

 

[Liz Third]

I think this thread is on the same line of thinking as my piece in the "Whippet" magazine referred to in another thread. I try to do as much as possible with my whippets, my show champion Bruntsfield Playaway races regularly with SPWRC , not very fast but a very genuine racer who traps fast and never interferes, he has won a club scratch trophy in his younger days. He has also caught rabbits and hares while out on a walk, I know this does not not make him a "working whippet" but I think it makes him quite an allrounder, but I consider him first and foremost a typical whippet who will enjoy any activity his owner wishes to try out! By the way, he also does obedience quite successfully and is a KC Good Citizen (GOLD). He is banned from lure coursing as he pulls up the pulleys!

I have also a much faster dog, the black Bruntsfield Beetle who has done a fair bit of show winning, and has his stud book number. A joy to watch him racing on the bends, he loves to come up on the outside and overtake the opposition on the final straight. Has not had much chance with the bunnies because of myxie round here, and his racing has been curtailed this year due to aa tendon injury sustained while lure coursing.

One of the reasons many show people do not take part in racing and lure coursing is the risk element, it is frustrating to spend £20 on a show entry to have to withdraw a lame dog which may take several weeks to be sound again.

 

[posh totty]

there would be many reasons why someone would not work their dogs, time, risk, personal views on hunting etc etc , time and money can also play factors, you are correct in thinking why waste x amount of pounds on a show because your dog has an injury from field? some just simply wouldnt want a mark on their show dog?

my original question was, is there or have there been any successful show dogs which were also working whippets, which pennymeadow have shown there are and so have a few others, well done to those people :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

Here, we race the 200 yard distance.  It would probably requires some math and metric conversion to figure out what the speed of our dogs is relative to yours. Our top straight racing dogs are capable of doing about 11-11.1 over 200 yards (and a number can break 11 seconds), and the fastest showbred dogs in racing run in the low 12's,maybe 11.8 at best). 

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Thanks Karen, I have searched through my old European mags for some race results and all I found was 360m race with top speed 23.843, which is not much help to us. OK, 360m is 393.70078 yards. I will ask my friends what other distances their dogs run.

Does anybody has the speeds for UK racing dogs?

 

[jayp]

A few show whippets lure coursing at Stapeley a few weeks ago

These are mine and Peggy Crosses whippets Jan

 

[Seraphina]

This is my friend's Champion Ithaka z Hedvabi, she is also successful racing bitch,

Her pedigree:

Ithaka pedigree

Her sire is an International champion, her mother very successful racing whippet as well as show champion

 

[Seraphina]

here she flies

 

[posh totty]

she is stunning!!!

 

[Seraphina]

she is stunning!!!

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Yes she is gorgeous, isn't she I nearly got her litter sister Ikona, but it is such complicated process to bring one over from continent, I gave up. They are granddaughters of my Marlie.

Ikona winning BOB in large show in Austria