Are you a culprit for yanking?

[Josie]

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I was out walking this morning and I suddenly noticed how many owners give their dogs a yank to keep them moving in the direction they want or to stop them sniffing something. Its really painful to see.

Some yanks are obviously more forceful than others and some I think are done without even thinking!

I'm really conscious of not doing this with Den. The only thing he does that causes a halt in proceedings is sniffing EVERYTHING but I just talk to him and hurry him along. I must admit that sometimes the gentle coaxing gets a hint of frustration and becomes something like ' Will you hurry up, you've been sniffing this bit of fence for flipping ages now'

I'm not talking about harnesses being better for a situation like this because even yanking a dog on a harness isn't great.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

 

[Josie]

p.s I witnessed a woman yank her dog so hard (a small terrier so very light) with a harness that it literally disappeared like a flash behind a car

 

[doggie1]

Sorry, if I didn't give the occasional yank, he wouldn't come. For instance when he's seen a duck or a log on the water, he would just keep pulling. He is a very headstrong little dog and wants to do what he wants to do, and has selective deafness. Or can't hear 'cos he's in 'the zone'.
ETA If he's on his flexi, I will 'walk down' it if he won't come, but he has to be pulled away, either by me or on the Halti.

 

[Josie]

Sorry, if I didn't give the occasional yank, he wouldn't come. For instance when he's seen a duck or a log on the water, he would just keep pulling. He is a very headstrong little dog and wants to do what he wants to do, and has selective deafness. Or can't hear 'cos he's in 'the zone'.

It's good to hear the other side of things. I don't own a terrier so I don't have that understanding of when they get in the zone. So I can completely understand where you are coming from!

 

[doggie1]

It's good to hear the other side of things. I don't own a terrier so I don't have that understanding of when they get in the zone. So I can completely understand where you are coming from!

Eddi is lovely in the house.He can be a bit demanding, for instance, he will nag my husband to death for his treat toys after his dinner. He'll start on me if he gets no joy. Starts throwing his treat ball on our feet. He is a little character though, just wish he hadn't done what he did last Saturday.

 

[JudyN]

I never yank and I hate seeing others do it (but you need to do what you need to do, doggie1). I do apply a lot of gradual pressure if, say, Jasper is fixating on a cat or a half-full takeaway carton in the gutter, but 'a lot' is relative, given how big he is and how small I am.

doggie1, would it work if rather than a sharp yank you just hauled Eddi along? If you imagine yourself wearing a collar or Halti and someone jerking on it sharply - well, it wouldn't feel good and it could do damage.

 

[doggie1]

I never yank and I hate seeing others do it (but you need to do what you need to do, doggie1). I do apply a lot of gradual pressure if, say, Jasper is fixating on a cat or a half-full takeaway carton in the gutter, but 'a lot' is relative, given how big he is and how small I am.

doggie1, would it work if rather than a sharp yank you just hauled Eddi along? If you imagine yourself wearing a collar or Halti and someone jerking on it sharply - well, it wouldn't feel good and it could do damage.

I probably o hul him rather than yank him. It's not good for mee

I never yank and I hate seeing others do it (but you need to do what you need to do, doggie1). I do apply a lot of gradual pressure if, say, Jasper is fixating on a cat or a half-full takeaway carton in the gutter, but 'a lot' is relative, given how big he is and how small I am.

doggie1, would it work if rather than a sharp yank you just hauled Eddi along? If you imagine yourself wearing a collar or Halti and someone jerking on it sharply - well, it wouldn't feel good and it could do damage.

I suppose I do haul him rather than yank, but he goes flat sometimes, and when he used to walk, his shoulder was almost on the floor. He's a bit better than that now, but he is still a handful. He also used to flatten his front and hind legs at right angles to his body. He's small but very strong. I nearly had to send him back after three weeks when this started, I had permanent back, shoulder and arm ache, the Halti saved us both, once that's on I have full control of him. I don't like using that all of the time as he can't run off-lead, so his Flexi lead allows him some freedom.

 

[JudyN]

Ah yes, I was forgetting you need to think of your back too!

Something that I did when Jasper put on the brakes and refused to be dragged was to stand at the far end of the lead, facing the other way and holding it behind my back, with fairly firm contact on the collar, and just waiting... and waiting... and waiting (someone advised me to take a book, and possibly a flask of tea). I didn't say anything at all, just let him work it out for himself... Eventually, he'd realise he wasn't going to get any nearer the cat/abandoned takeaway and that he didn't really want to stand there all night, so he'd follow me. Sometimes only a few steps, and then he'd stop again, and I'd wait him out again. Now, once I turn my back on him and hold the lead behind me, he will usually give in straight away as he knows I can't be persuaded.

I'm not saying this will definitely work with Eddi as he's quite reactive and may be more persistent than Jasper, but thought I'd mention it in case you think it's worth a try.

 

[Mad Murphy]

Never mind me yanking him what about him yanking me?
As he hit puberty all those lovely lessons about walking on the lead vanished and Murphy became a bit of a monster. His prey drive kicked in and if he saw anything move he would lurch forward in a movement that pulled my arm so badly I had pins and needles in it. I ended up at physio for the damage he caused.

We are working really hard to re-establish those lessons he learned while young and he is doing well in urban areas and at night but when in wooded areas or nature areas is prey drive kicks in and its hard to get him to walk nicely. We continue to work with him and its gradually getting better but yes sometimes a yank is the only thing that seems to snap him out of the hunting mode. (btw before anyone mentions treats he is not food motivated treats do not interest him esp when there is live prey around)

 

[Caro Perry]

I have to "haul" Harri too at times. He gets in the zone and just doesn't hear me.... It's a gradual increase in pressure though rather than a sharp yank and accompanied by a verbal instruction. If he is totally zoned out, like he was this morning trying to excavate some poor rodent's hole, I tend to pick him up and walk on a few dozen yards before putting him down again.

Being a terrier he also manages to plant all 4 paws firmly if he doesn't want to move and nothing will shift him! If I don't have time to wait him out and/or he's in the middle of the road then again he gets picked up. He doesn't like it but needs must at times.

 

[doggie1]

I have to "haul" Harri too at times. He gets in the zone and just doesn't hear me.... It's a gradual increase in pressure though rather than a sharp yank and accompanied by a verbal instruction. If he is totally zoned out, like he was this morning trying to excavate some poor rodent's hole, I tend to pick him up and walk on a few dozen yards before putting him down again.

Being a terrier he also manages to plant all 4 paws firmly if he doesn't want to move and nothing will shift him! If I don't have time to wait him out and/or he's in the middle of the road then again he gets picked up. He doesn't like it but needs must at times.

Bloody terriers, who invented them?

 

[doggie1]

Never mind me yanking him what about him yanking me?
As he hit puberty all those lovely lessons about walking on the lead vanished and Murphy became a bit of a monster. His prey drive kicked in and if he saw anything move he would lurch forward in a movement that pulled my arm so badly I had pins and needles in it. I ended up at physio for the damage he caused.

We are working really hard to re-establish those lessons he learned while young and he is doing well in urban areas and at night but when in wooded areas or nature areas is prey drive kicks in and its hard to get him to walk nicely. We continue to work with him and its gradually getting better but yes sometimes a yank is the only thing that seems to snap him out of the hunting mode. (btw before anyone mentions treats he is not food motivated treats do not interest him esp when there is live prey around)

Treats will work with Eddi, but not when he is in the 'get the log mode'. (I use that expression, as a vegetarian, I can't bear to think about what he wants to do to other living things).

 

[JoanneF]

I think not all yanks are the same. I cannot bear to see a really painful leash correction on a young / small dog learning to walk properly, used as a substitute for training by gentle leading but I don't think that is the same thing as we are talking about here.

 

[Violet Turner]

I have seen a vet yank dogs and the dogs are so lame and sad looking. I think I have only yanked olive but it was because there was chickens but I didn't pull hard...

 

[leashedForLife]

Never mind me yanking him -- what about him yanking me?
As he hit puberty, all those lovely lessons about walking on the lead vanished, & Murphy became a bit of a monster. His prey drive kicked in, and if he saw anything move, he'd lurch forward in a movement that pulled my arm so badly, I had pins & needles in it. I ended up at physio for the damage he caused.

We're working really hard to re-establish those lessons he learned while young, and he's doing well in urban areas and at night, but in wooded or nature areas, his prey-drive kicks in, & it's hard to get him to walk nicely.
We continue to work with him & it's gradually getting better, but yes, sometimes a yank is the only thing that seems to snap him out of hunting mode.
(btw, before anyone mentions treats, he's not food motivated - treats don't interest him, esp'ly when there's live prey around.)

.

Have U tried a front-clip Y-harness? --- or a pre-conditioned headcollar?

With both, U keep Ur hands low & wrists / arms relatively straight, turning from the hips to use yer torso rather than upper-body or arm strength. // A front-clip harness converts his forward push from his rear legs into a sideways arc, & simply stepping BACK with yer off leg [the one on the side away from the dog] & turning toward that side, while moving the leash with both hands toward that side's hip at the side-seam of yer pants, will move him into a U-turn with very little force exerted on the dog, & very little muscular work by U as handler.
It's all his momentum, U just re-direct it.

Also, while he might not be motivated by treats when he's completely caught-up in a critter nearby, he IS "food motivated" - as if he wasn't, he'd starve to death. It's just that in the context of an overwhelming excitement, food is 2nd-best by a mile.

OTOH, if U teach him an obsessive fascination with a tug-toy at home, & really build his desire for it, since *that* is an immediately-reachable target, U could very possibly divert him from the unattainable game, to the exciting tuggee.
Here's an example of how-to -

A brief tug-session can still be vigorous & highly exciting, while avoiding the complications of, say, fetch - he won't need to run out & get it, the tuggee is right here in Ur hands the whole time. A small tuggee can fit in most jacket pockets, & if U're jacketless, a locking carabiner can hold it via the tug-loop to a belt-loop, purse strap, backpack strap, or just stick it in a fanny-pack to take along.
NOTICE he must learn __never to initiate__ his own TUG-GAME, or one day Ur pants will tear when he tries to rip the tuggee off the belt-loop! - We won't punish his enthusiasm, we'll teach him a default behavior before we teach tug, so it's all under control --- w/o tainting the fun by scolding.
U start the game, U end the game, & U control the intensity.

1st thing: teach a default "drop".
As a good tuggee, i'd suggest a Planet Dog floating Orbee ball - durable, kind to dogs' teeth, resilient, & fairly lightweight. When the ball dies, it's recyclable - send it to Orbee, they make more stuff.
Any outdoor-supply carries climbing rope, or marine supplies have floating-poly line, all in varying diameters - fold one in a loop, hold the end & the rope with one hand & put Ur hand in the bend. How does it feel? Comfy? Too thin? - will it be painful, with the weight of a dog on it?
Choose a good diameter for U, that fits thru the ball TWICE - a loop on one side for Ur hand, & a sturdy knot on the other, to secure the ball. If the only comfy diameter is too fat to run side-by-side thru the ball, don't panic, that's OK. Just string the ball like a bead, & knot the rope 'above' the ball, so it can spin freely but isn't suspended under a big open O. U'll need enuf length of rope to make the knots; if the rope passes thru the ball twice, a simple half-knot under the ball using both ends is dandy. The loop handle comes out one end, the fat knot is under the ball at the other.

A floating poly line in a bright yellow, from any marine supply, is good for visual in the water, & it won't drag the ball under - fetch in water or tug in water add more aerobic exercise. . U only pay for the rope U need; cost is by the running length; diameter & material or purpose determine the price per foot / meter.

Whether marine-poly or climbing-rope, if U cut Ur own rope with the heated blade, Turn ON The Vent to exhaust the nasty fumes -before- U turn on the blade to preheat. If the salesnik cuts the rope, be sure s/he turns on the vent. The fumes are toxic.

Try the knots to decide on the correct length; cut the rope, then melt the ends slightly to ensure they won't ravel: roll the rope's circumference along the hot blade. Keep Ur hands AWAY from the blade & the melted rope ends! - hold the rope like a stick, & roll it while watching the fibers curl on the heat.
U don't want a blob, & U don't want to burn it; U want to fuse the outer-tube fibers to one another. Let that end cool under the vent, sucking all the stinky fumes out along with the heat. Then heat-seal the other end, cool that one, & test both to see if they can still fray. If they can frazzle, give each another roll on the hot blade, cooling the 1st before fusing the 2nd.

OK - assemble Ur tuggee, using the thoroughly cooled rope. Ask the sales-staff for help if U need it, they'll know knots & be able to help tighten 'em, too. With U pulling one side & the salesnik on the other, U can get the knot well-tightened.
U've got a comfy open loop to fit Ur hand, & a tightly-secured ball for the dog's teeth. Good! Take it home, & wash Ur brand-new tuggee, then rinse it well & set it aside to dry, someplace the dog can't get to.

that's the making bit - next is the default-drop & teaching an intense desire for the tuggee.

- t

.

 

[leashedForLife]

.

Part II:

Once it's dry, U're ready to teach a default drop.
Get the tuggee out, & play with it *alone*. Get him intrigued, but don't play with him or offer the ball yet. U play - toss it hand to hand, do isometric exercises with it, spin Ur arm so the ball whirls like a plane's propeller, anything. React - laugh, gasp, grunt with effort. Then put it away.
10-mins later or the next day, whatever, get it out - play with it solo again. Put it away. // Always store it where the dog can't get it out himself - & never leave it with the dog to be chewed, stashed, carried as a trophy, guarded from others, etc. It's for interactive play **with** U, period.

After a 3rd solo play-session, with lots of self-involved enthusiasm, he should be busting to get at this thing - curiosity & frustration are driving him mildly nutz. He's whining, staring, trotting around U to stay under it as it moves, maybe trying to climb Ur thighs to get to it. That's OK. Stop, & put it away.
The next time U get it out, be prepared - - we're going to teach the default drop.

Get the tuggee out, start to play, & then... pause, & offer him the ball. Let him mouth it, tug back gently till he feels bold enuf to begin pulling with some power. DROP Ur ARM, hang it deadweight off his jaw - just go limp. As soon as he lets go, & he will, give him time... praise him warmly, & INSTANTLY offer the ball, shake it enticingly, get him to grab it.
Tug again to get some tension & engage him, & as soon as he's tugging with some power, go deadweight.
The dog will quickly learn, if Ur timing is good, that the faster he lets go, the faster the game starts again, & the wilder it can become. U can use 2 hands to lift him by his clamped teeth, & shake him gently while praising him.
U can airplane-fly him around U while U turn with him suspended.
U can build up to really intense tug-games, & always know that as soon as U stop pulling, he'll DROP the tug like a hot potato.

U can leave it as a mute signal, or add a cue - a verbal label. Go deadweight, & AS HE DROPS IT, say "drop" - or give, or whatever U like. After sufficient repetitions of deadweight / he lets go, U say ___, he'll pair the act of letting go with the sound of that word.
Try the word alone - if he doesn't instantly drop it, he hasn't connected act & word. Go back to deadweight & saying the label with his action.
.
Now U can build intensity without worrying - if he grabs Ur sleeve or arm, yip & go deadweight. If he tries to nab the tuggee from a bag, box, or drawer, or off Ur pants-loop, yip & say "Off!" or whatever he knows as off the couch, off the person, etc, or assuming he's grokked the concept & attached the cue, "Drop!" / "Give!"
If he knows none of the above, an ugly raucous yawp like an angry parrot works fine. U know Ur dog - don't make it so intense he's now scared of U, or scared of the tuggee. Just-enuf, so he lets go [of Ur arm, sleeve, the tuggee, Ur pantsleg, etc].
.
Tug sessions should be short so he still wants to play - after all, U can start & stop a half-dozen sessions in 5-mins when they're just brief distractions. Longer tug-sessions can be great ways to physically tire a dog.
.
Don't be afraid to growl playfully to up the intensity, or to stare at him while SMILING - don't forget the smile!
A dead-eye-dick look paired with a stare can either intimidate a soft dog, or challenge a pushy dog; we just want to play, as hard as the dog likes. Intensity can always be raised.
Letting him haul back in short jerks with all 4 of his feet planted is one way to give him a good workout.

Within a week or less, the mere sight of his tuggee should pop his gaze off any other person, most moving objects, & even running / flying prey, *if* he's not very predatory. If it doesn't, shake it & laugh, offer it & snatch it back, play with it Urself, fling it out [holding the loop firmly! - don't let go] & call his play-name, etc.

Keep working on building his excitement & intensity at home, so that when U pull it out or offer it "on the road", he's instantly engaged. Build & reward his intensity - hold him up one-handed with his forefeet slightly off the ground, & pat his shoulder, yell encouragement - "Get it! - good DOG!...", & so on.
His tuggee can even become a visual cue to recall - pull it out, hold it up, say his name & shake it.
He should come flying in to grab that thing for a good rousing game.

Practice in distraction-free areas 1st, indoors - then move to the garden, a quiet park or empty sidewalk, a cul-de-sac, etc, before expecting that he'll ignore another dog, a soccer game, a jogger... The more U practice, the better he'll get & the faster he'll respond to the sight of his tuggee. It's not the -length- of time in sessions, but the sheer number of fun happy sessions, however brief, that teach intensity, a quick drop to the merest beginning of deadweight / no response from U, & sheer enthusiasm.

Once he's hooked, it's a terrific way to relax & focus him virtually anywhere & anytime, even when he's scared or highly-excited. Super-Tug is terrific for training, B-Mod, & holding a dog's attn under distraction or stress. Once learned, it's a great go-to help.

HTH,
- terry

.

 

[Mad Murphy]

.

Have U tried a front-clip Y-harness? --- or a pre-conditioned headcollar?

With both, U keep Ur hands low & wrists / arms relatively straight, turning from the hips to use yer torso rather than upper-body or arm strength. // A front-clip harness converts his forward push from his rear legs into a sideways arc, & simply stepping BACK with yer off leg [the one on the side away from the dog] & turning toward that side, while moving the leash with both hands toward that side's hip at the side-seam of yer pants, will move him into a U-turn with very little force exerted on the dog, & very little muscular work by U as handler.
It's all his momentum, U just re-direct it.

Also, while he might not be motivated by treats when he's completely caught-up in a critter nearby, he IS "food motivated" - as if he wasn't, he'd starve to death. It's just that in the context of an overwhelming excitement, food is 2nd-best by a mile.

OTOH, if U teach him an obsessive fascination with a tug-toy at home, & really build his desire for it, since *that* is an immediately-reachable target, U could very possibly divert him from the unattainable game, to the exciting tuggee.
Here's an example of how-to -



that's the making bit - next is the default-drop & teaching an intense desire for the tuggee.

- t

.

Thanks we have the Y front fastening harness , it helps but isnt always practical. Food? He can normally take it or leave it although I have to say since his castration last week he hasn't missed a meal. Thats a first! With Murphy its not about the kill its the chase. We have tried toys tugs toys etc but nothing beats the chase..

As I said he did have all the training . recall, lead walking etc down to a T but the last couple of months have been a real PITA Im hoping that most of it was puberty and hormones so that if we keep going we can get him back into good habits.

 

[doggie1]

Thanks we have the Y front fastening harness , it helps but isnt always practical. Food? He can normally take it or leave it although I have to say since his castration last week he hasn't missed a meal. Thats a first! With Murphy its not about the kill its the chase. We have tried toys tugs toys etc but nothing beats the chase..

As I said he did have all the training . recall, lead walking etc down to a T but the last couple of months have been a real PITA Im hoping that most of it was puberty and hormones so that if we keep going we can get him back into good habits.

Can you let him off lead?

 

[Mad Murphy]

Can you let him off lead?

Yes we do .. we are lucky enough to have safe off lead areas. His recall used to be 100% then it dropped and ge would come near but not to heel just far enough away that we couldnt get him.. hoping that will change now!

 

[arealhuman]

Same as @doggie1 - we have to do some yanking to get Jimbo out of his zone from time to time, or to avoid him getting into it in the first place. When we first had him his lunging was much worse, he would jump and spin away from us so hard he'd sort of spring back on the tension on the lead which I'm sure looked horrendous, but there was no avoiding it. Thankfully, that behaviour has all but disappeared now, but he does get the occasional yank to corss a road for example if there are dogs coming in his direction. So yes, I'm probably that terrible person you're all referring to