British And American Whippets

[Juley]

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Hi Judy, you are absolutely correct, we were going round a left hand corner, slightly uphill and the ground was also very uneven.

 

[maggie217]

The other day I was watching the Kennel Club DVD "A DVD Guide to Understanding Canine Conformation and Movement". In the section 'On the Move' the commentary on front action is as follows:-

"the ideal is parallel movement with the feet coming straight down......As the dogs pick up speed the legs will have a slight tendency to converge along the same line which is known as single tracking.............however as dogs are shown at a trotting pace you will probably only see this in very long legged breeds when they are moved at a fast trot'

 

Convergence isn't mentioned in relation to the hind legs. As expected the comentator states close rear movement is a fault.

 

Pauline

 

[Judy]

The other day I was watching the Kennel Club DVD  "A DVD Guide to Understanding Canine Conformation and Movement".  In the section 'On the Move' the commentary on front action is as follows:-"the ideal is parallel movement with the feet coming straight down......As the dogs pick up speed the legs will have a slight tendency to converge along the same line which is known as single tracking.............however as dogs are shown at a trotting pace you will probably only see this in very long legged breeds when they are moved at a fast trot'

Ahhh, so they do say they will converge. And whippets are a long legged breed. 

Convergence isn't mentioned in relation to the hind legs.  As expected the comentator states close rear movement is a fault.

The bit you quoted didn't mention front legs either, just "legs" and close rear movement is a fault as I'm sure we'll all agree but its not the same thing as convergence which is something that both front and rear legs do.

Pauline

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[maggie217]

The other day I was watching the Kennel Club DVD  "A DVD Guide to Understanding Canine Conformation and Movement".  In the section 'On the Move' the commentary on front action is as follows:-"the ideal is parallel movement with the feet coming straight down......As the dogs pick up speed the legs will have a slight tendency to converge along the same line which is known as single tracking.............however as dogs are shown at a trotting pace you will probably only see this in very long legged breeds when they are moved at a fast trot'

Ahhh, so they do say they will converge. And whippets are a long legged breed. 

He does say though it will only be seen at a FAST trotConvergence isn't mentioned in relation to the hind legs.  As expected the comentator states close rear movement is a fault.

The bit you quoted didn't mention front legs either, just "legs" and close rear movement is a fault as I'm sure we'll all agree but its not the same thing as convergence which is something that both front and rear legs do.

Although he only says 'legs' here it is in the section when he is specifically talking about front action. Pauline

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I agree close movement is seen as a fault in the rear and is not the same as, and shouldn't be confused with convergence.

Pauline

 

[Judy]

Ahhh, so they do say they will converge. And whippets are a long legged breed. 

He does say though it will only be seen at a FAST trot

Only easily seen at a fast trot perhaps but even a slow trotting dog must begin to converge (but to a lesser degree and so not as visible) as it still only has two legs in support at any one time.

The bit you quoted didn't mention front legs either, just "legs" and close rear movement is a fault as I'm sure we'll all agree but its not the same thing as convergence which is something that both front and rear legs do.

Although he only says 'legs' here it is in the section when he is specifically talking about front action. Pauline

But this doesn't preclude the back legs converging as well. They have to for the same reason the front legs do. And if they didn't then surely the dog would be moving wider behind than in the front.

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I agree close movement is seen as a fault in the rear and is not the same as, and shouldn't be confused with convergence.

Pauline

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[kris]

i think someone mentioned before that an easy way to see it is to take your dog to the beach and move him at different paces and then go look at the pawprints.i was chatting to an old friend yesterday who is a top judge in akitas but shes also done utility groups at ch sh level.and she agreed about convergance and as she lives near to ainsdale beach where we take our dogs she would take her dogs there to check out their movement and to see if there were any problems with them and at which pace the dog moved best.so shes seen all the pawprints in the sand bit as we have when we go there.of course nowaays we had cheap cameras that we can video movement but in our early showing days we didnt have these (or couldnt afford them) so i think its so much easier now for people to check out their dogs movement as they can video it and watch the film at home in the comfort of their living rooms. trackerslike red indians,safari guides etc) can do this all the time.they can look at footprints and see if an animal or man is moving slowly or fast depending on the footprints and also the depth of them too if the ground is soft enough so can see if an animal is injured and is favouring a particular leg etc.

 

[dawn]

An interesting if not totally relevant site on canine movement - aimed mainly at showing some forms of lameness

Canine Lameness

 

[kris]

thats a brilliant site dawn,thanks for posting it :thumbsup:

 

[parnew]

forgot to add in my post that the 'pace' of Dollys dog , Harry, in his super movement picture is totally different to the 'pace' in the lovely pic. of Juley with her pup but can I ask, as she did , can anyone see a noticeable difference?

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This is an interesting question - can anyone see a noticeable difference? I've had my husband move Frankie up and down the gargen at various speeds today (Frankie wondered what on earth we were doing i think!) At the rear he stayed the same, he did not go close as we picked up the pace. Front movement (as is Berry's in the pick Juley posted), lovely and straight both slow and at a pretty brisk pace too.

However, we are looking at pictures of Whippets who do move well. If pace is increased with a dog that does not move correctly, does the problem become easier to spot?

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Have looked back at your pic jok of Frankies lovely side profile movement, if as you say he moves in front as per the pics suppied by Juley & Harry, I too would be interested in the replies with respect to the 'centre line' part of this overall discussion. :thumbsup:

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Ok, here's my reply :thumbsup:

It seems to me there must be some confusion over what is moving straight, moving to close and converging. We must be talking about different things because converging is moving straight. The columns of the legs are straight and the front and hind legs on the same side are in the same plane but the paws are set down closer to the dogs centre line than when the dog is standing still with straight legs, being supported by all 4 paws instead of just two as in the trot.

If the dog did not converge it would have to constantly move his weight from side to side, depending on which leg was supporting him at the time, in order to shift his centre of gravity over the support and this produces a rolling gait.

On the other hand moving close, which is a different thing and is faulty movement, (perhaps caused by a long weak second thigh as Patsy says) is when the columns of the legs are not moving in straight planes. This is much easier to see with the naked eye than convergence because convergence looks so natural (because it is). I suspect that when people are observing their dogs being moved up and down they are looking at how close the legs come together rather than where the paw is set down which is much harder to see.

If you look at some of the racing photographs on this board, where the dogs are running toward the camera, you can see picture after picture after picture that clearly show that the paws are being set down under the centre of the dog. Of course the amount of convergence is much more dramatic in the gallop as there is only one paw on the ground at any one time. Here's a link Racing photos

In this picture Harry is showing off (as everybody has agreed) his beautiful, correct and straight movement. On both sides his legs are moving in perfectly straight planes which are parallel to his direction of motion and he is in fact (at least in my opinion) starting to converge.

The photo is not quite straight (look at the line of the carpet and the struts between chair legs) but if you draw a line down his centre line and perpendicular to the ground you can see that his front left paw which is supporting him has in fact been set down closer to his centre line than is the other leg which is in the act of being brought forward and is not in a support phase. The vertical planes of the left and right legs are not quite parallel to each other, although the direction of their motion is.

If Helen would give me permission I could reproduce the photo with a grid over it to show you what I mean and I think this might help to show that properly moving dogs do converge. I don't think we are disagreeing about what correct movement is, just whether or not dogs do in fact converge, perhaps because of our different understandings of what it is.

The photo of Juley looks to me like she has just come round a left hand corner or is just starting out as both her and the dog are leaning to the left to balance themselves. Neither Juley's or her dogs legs are perpendicular to the ground. Nothing wrong there, they just haven't straighten up yet. If you look at the left foreleg it is being bought forward at an angle not perpendicular to the ground but angled in toward the centre line of the dog.

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Yes... well said :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

thats a brilliant site dawn,thanks for posting it :thumbsup:

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fantastic Thanks!

Could the link be put somewhere in FAQs?

 

[Judy]

An interesting if not totally relevant site on canine movement - aimed mainly at showing some forms of lamenessCanine Lameness

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That is a really brilliant site. Thanks Dawn... or Richard :thumbsup: I think I'll be bookmarking that one

To quote from the site "In trotting, some dogs will single track and some will parallel track. In single tracking, all foot prints will form a single line. In parallel tracking, the front left and hind left foot print will form one line that runs parallel to the right front and right hind foot print. This dog does parallel tracking."

If you look at the healthy dog trotting and slow up the motion you can very clearly see that though not single tracking, the vertical planes of the legs are converging inwards and the paws are being set down towards the centre line of the dog. The overhead view makes it particularly clear.

 

[dessie]

An interesting if not totally relevant site on canine movement - aimed mainly at showing some forms of lamenessCanine Lameness

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That is a really brilliant site. Thanks Dawn... or Richard :thumbsup: I think I'll be bookmarking that one

To quote from the site "In trotting, some dogs will single track and some will parallel track. In single tracking, all foot prints will form a single line. In parallel tracking, the front left and hind left foot print will form one line that runs parallel to the right front and right hind foot print. This dog does parallel tracking."

If you look at the healthy dog trotting and slow up the motion you can very clearly see that though not single tracking, the vertical planes of the legs are converging inwards and the paws are being set down towards the centre line of the dog. The overhead view makes it particularly clear.

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Absolutely brilliant site, thanks Richard/Dawn!!

Agree with Judy, slow down the trot and watch from above.

Also interesting is the head position. I have been criticised on occasions for allowing my dogs to trot out with their heads 'down' and that I should "get their head up". It is not a natural position for dogs to trot (or gallp for that matter) with their head up because if they are correctly made you just throw them off balance.

 

[quintessence]

Thank you Dawn/Richard for the link and thank you Judy for your post yesterday.

Jenny

 

[julie_s]

Also interesting is the head position.  I have been criticised on occasions for allowing my dogs to trot out with their heads 'down' and that I should "get their head up".  It is not a natural position for dogs to trot (or gallp for that matter) with their head up because if they are correctly made you just throw them off balance.

As complete newbies we have always been told to get Ruby's head up, when she's moving. I think she's more comfortable and her movement is better when she has her head lower.

 

[dessie]

Also interesting is the head position.  I have been criticised on occasions for allowing my dogs to trot out with their heads 'down' and that I should "get their head up".   It is not a natural position for dogs to trot (or gallp for that matter) with their head up because if they are correctly made you just throw them off balance.

As complete newbies we have always been told to get Ruby's head up, when she's moving. I think she's more comfortable and her movement is better when she has her head lower.

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Precisely, because it is more natural. You need to maintain light contact but allow the dog to have its head in a position that will allow it optimum extension. I don't like seeing dogs being allowed to slop along but I really, really loathe seeing dogs strung up so tight that they have trouble swallowing and it affects their front movement.

 

[neave]

Also interesting is the head position.  I have been criticised on occasions for allowing my dogs to trot out with their heads 'down' and that I should "get their head up".   It is not a natural position for dogs to trot (or gallp for that matter) with their head up because if they are correctly made you just throw them off balance.

As complete newbies we have always been told to get Ruby's head up, when she's moving. I think she's more comfortable and her movement is better when she has her head lower.

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Precisely, because it is more natural. You need to maintain light contact but allow the dog to have its head in a position that will allow it optimum extension. I don't like seeing dogs being allowed to slop along but I really, really loathe seeing dogs strung up so tight that they have trouble swallowing and it affects their front movement.

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I agree with dessie there is nothing worse than seeing a dog strung up or being dragged roung a ring :rant:

 

[UKUSA]

Well it now seems that the movement/ convergence thing has been done to death! So..... there has been much talk lately in the dog press in this country about the addition or not of a champions class, already a feature of North American shows. The chairman of our kennel club says over his dead body but what do others think? Does it lower the bar, making it easier for lesser dogs to gain their title thus devaluing the U.K title( still the hardest to win anywhere in the world) or is it about time?

Nicky

 

[quintessence]

I wonder if someone could explain how the system works in USA. How do you make up a Champion, and then how do compete against dogs which have already gained their title.

Jenny

 

[UKUSA]

I wonder if someone could explain how the system works in USA.  How do you make up a Champion, and then how do compete against dogs which have already gained their title.
Jenny

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O.k, Ive been back here for some time now so Ill do my best to remember how it works and Im sure that if Ive got any of it wrong one of our American friends will put me right.

To become an American Champion you have to win a certain number of points. They go from 1 to 5, 3,4 and 5 are considered majors and you must have two sets of majors in your points tally. I want to say you must have 21 points but I could be wrong. The number of points on offer depends on how many are present in the breed however the points in dogs can be different to the number of points offered in bitches, it depends on how many are entered in each sex. The country is split into regions and the points can differ from region to region, so the areas that have a larger number, in our case Whippets,number shown the harder it can be to win the majors. Are you still with me?

If at a show the major is in dogs but not in bitches the Winners bitch Will have to go Best of Winners to share the major or if she went on to Best of Breed and beat enough dogs to bump her points up to a major.

So from the classes W.D and W.B go forward and compete against the Champions in the B.O.B class for B.O.B. Only Champions can be entered for this class, they do not compete for points or in our case the C.C

Nicky

 

[dessie]

Well it now seems that the movement/ convergence thing has been done to death! So..... there has been much talk lately in the dog press in this country about the addition or not of a champions class, already a feature of North American shows. The chairman of our kennel club says over his dead body but what do others think? Does it lower the bar, making it easier for lesser dogs to gain their title thus devaluing the U.K title( still the hardest to win anywhere in the world) or is it about time?Nicky

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Good one Nicky, now this could be a can of worms!! LOL!! Would it not be better to start a new topic though??

I think we would like to do a lot of things over the KC Chairman's dead body ............... :- "