British And American Whippets

[UKUSA]

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Thank-you Dolly for reminding me that it was the late, great Don Weiden that said a correctly made dog does not converge. For those that do not know Don Weiden was the breeder exhibitor of the world famous Sedeki Salukis, an international judge of many hound breeds and an acclaimed columist,artist and sculptor. As for parallel movement, Ive been checking through my previous posts and I cannot find anywhere that Ive said that.

Nicky

 

[zafonic]

Hi Lana, I said in the post earlier what you should look for when judging movement, but I also asked about the speed you want to see a dog move. I will not change my mind it is the dogs with long weak second thighs that the faster they are moved the closer they become.  It is no good using any examples of the bull breeds or terriers they are so different in construction. I have lived for over 25yrs with Bull Terriers and still have a lovely old lady, I also award challenge certificates in Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

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i have to agree with patsy. too many hounds today do odd things with thier legs and still win, this is still a running animal and when at pace there should be no chance of legs hitting each other as the animal would naturally fall. when watching a whippet gallop the hind legs are kept well apart so as not to hinder the action and surely at any pace this would be preferable?

We also have to remember that the standard is not only the blueprint, but the total ideal of a whippet and many of us may think we have the ideal whippet but the perfect animal hasn't been born. If it had there would be no reason to show whatsoever as it would always be a foregone conclusion. Personal preferance may account for judges differing opinions when stacked but in an animal who is bred to run and who moves properly should be at the top of the line?

Zafonic

 

[UKUSA]

Hi Lana, I said in the post earlier what you should look for when judging movement, but I also asked about the speed you want to see a dog move. I will not change my mind it is the dogs with long weak second thighs that the faster they are moved the closer they become.  It is no good using any examples of the bull breeds or terriers they are so different in construction. I have lived for over 25yrs with Bull Terriers and still have a lovely old lady, I also award challenge certificates in Staffordshire Bull Terriers.

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i have to agree with patsy. too many hounds today do odd things with thier legs and still win, this is still a running animal and when at pace there should be no chance of legs hitting each other as the animal would naturally fall. when watching a whippet gallop the hind legs are kept well apart so as not to hinder the action and surely at any pace this would be preferable?

We also have to remember that the standard is not only the blueprint, but the total ideal of a whippet and many of us may think we have the ideal whippet but the perfect animal hasn't been born. If it had there would be no reason to show whatsoever as it would always be a foregone conclusion. Personal preferance may account for judges differing opinions when stacked but in an animal who is bred to run and who moves properly should be at the top of the line?

Zafonic

n

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Well said Zafonic.

My final thoughts on this whole "convergence" thing are these. As long as the breed standard approved by the Kennel Club asks for a Whippet to move in the way described in that standard, with not one word about convergence, then that is how I shall judge them and that is all I am going to say on the topic that I feel has taken us away from the discussion of thediffering standards and into red herring territory.

 

[patsy]

Now getting back on track to the English/American whippet differences. In the Biennial covering activities 1981/1982, Bo Bengtson did the American report 1982.

Gillian Usher was the editor of the Biennial and the American standard was published to coinside with Bo's article

There were no emails in those days so to quote Gillian: I asked the secretary of the A.K.C. for more details about the disqualifications.He replied that judges would ordinarily measure only those dogs that they felt were not within the standard.Any dog found to have any of the listed disqualifications must be disqualified.The judge enters in his judging book "disqualified" and the reason why.

JUST IMAGINE THE WHOOO HAAA HERE IF A JUDGE HAD TO DO THAT.

WIll not type the whole of the aricle as it is too long, my old biennials are being passed on to someone worthy, who is active on K9 so maybe she could scan it and post.

Will type the last two paragraphs.

There is a lot of talk about the discrepancy between the so-called

English and American types.There is not much foundation for any differences as the two breed standards are fairly in most important respects(size is the exception,with the American standard stating 19-22 inches as the ideal for dogs, 18-21inches for bitches, with one half inch above or below these figures being a disqualification)

Anyway most American Whippet pedigrees are saturated with English blood only a few steps back. The Current top sire Ch. Misty Moor's Chalmondoley, who is also the all-time top producer with over 80 Champions to his credit,is strongly line-bred on both sides through two sons of Ch Laguna Ligonier.

It is also a fact that since back in 1956 when a point score for the Top Whippet of the year was set up, the winner every year except two has been either an English import or sired by an English dog.

I really enjoyed reading this again.

Gillian use to take the measure when she judged the breed, am sure she would have fainted at a 21inch bitch. I well remember her taking me to one side when I was showing a top winning puppy bitch who did go to live overseas and gained many titles PATSY beautiful creature that she is, she is not a true whippet, Bless her that was Gillian.

 

[dolly]

I remeber Gillian having the measure on the table when she used to judge, and as she walked towards you to go over you whippet, shewould casualy glance across at her measure !

 

[T Hoare]

I remeber Gillian having the measure on the table when she used to judge, and as she walked towards you to go over you whippet, shewould casualy glance across at her measure !

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I believe Shelagh Thompson also used a measure on a couple of occasions??

 

[seaspot_run]

Convergence is easy to test.

All you have to have is some damp smooth sand or a fresh light snowfall.

Take them at a straight, brisk trot.

Measure the distance between their feet in a parallel stance.

Then, measure the distance between their pad prints on the sand or snow.

That will tell you if they are converging towards a central line, or not.

I have done this with some of my dogs and the results have surprised me. You can also look for things like whether or not the front and rear pads track the same line, and whether or not the rear foot falls into the track left by the front foot.

There are many things the eye has trouble seeing, but which are revealed by the track pattern.

 

[UKUSA]

I seem to have messed my post up a bit!!!!! My reply to Patsys post started with me thanking her for looking up the infomation

Nicky

 

[UKUSA]

Ill start again.

Thanks for taking the time to look out that interesting infomation. I remember the Misty Moors dog and certainly siring so many champions is an achievment, not one that could happen here with any ease but then our systems our so different. Those were the days when British dogs were sort after,in fact the American dogs that I brought back with me with two exceptions, had quite a bit of British blood.

The size issue is interesting.My Americans were considered big back then, how things have changed because now it seems to me that quite a few of the dogs shown in the ring here size wise would not be out of place in the U.S ring. I suppose it would be interesting to ask at what point does a Whippet become Greyhoundy in type. I know what I think but it would be interesting to hear what others have to say.

Sorry Patsy that your post got interfered with, to read Patsys post go back to page 15

Nicky

 

[parnew]

Ill start again.Thanks for taking the time to look out that interesting infomation. I remember the Misty Moors dog and certainly siring so many champions is an achievment, not one that could happen here with any ease but then our systems our so different. Those were the days when British dogs were sort after,in fact the American dogs that I brought back with me with two exceptions, had quite a bit of British blood.

  The size issue is interesting.My Americans were considered big back then, how things have changed because now it seems to me that quite a few of the dogs shown in the ring here size wise would not be out of place in the U.S ring. I suppose it would be interesting to ask at what point does a Whippet become  Greyhoundy in type. I know what I think but it would be interesting to  hear what others have to say.

Sorry Patsy that your post got interfered with, to read Patsys post go back to page 15

Nicky

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The size must be a problem between the two standards when you have the English dogs the same size as the US bitches with the dogs 22 inches, I raced a geryhound bitch that weighed 25.5 kilo and was 26 inches tall so the big males in the US would go 23 to 24 if they get dogs the same we do with some of the boys going 21 to 22 here, so whippets like greyhounds the height is nearly there now as for the type of racing greyhounds there simlar to some whippets any way.

I have two bitches 18 inches and our English bred Roscoe is 19.5 inches so size is ok in my kennel at the minute, but like most breeders I've had big ones too. Lets hope we all can try to get the size where it should be so the two breeds are easy to tell apart.

 

[anniewhippet]

Thank-you Dolly for reminding me that it was the late, great Don Weiden that said a correctly made dog does not converge. For  those that do not know Don Weiden was the breeder exhibitor of the world famous Sedeki Salukis, an international judge of many hound breeds and an acclaimed columist,artist and sculptor. As for parallel movement, Ive been checking through my previous posts and I cannot find anywhere that Ive said that.Nicky

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Nicky I do remember Dons views on this........I attended a w/end seminar run by The Irishwolfhound Club in 1995 where Don was part of a four 'man' notable breed panel.

Unfortunately his session was run with the aid of flip charts, so sadly no actual printed notes, but he really disagreed with the movement part of the talk on the breed standard given by a very knowledgeable lady of the day. He held very strong views which sometimes did not make him any friends easily but boy could he give an interesting talk.....very thought provoking.

And in reply to Traceys post yes Shelagh Thompson very often used, or had set up like Gillian, a measure.

 

[UKUSA]

Hi Annie, Yes Don was aman with very strong views, and boy do I miss him, I knew him for forty years and there was never a dull moment. I learnt a lot from Don and his words often ring in my ears.

Nicky

 

[anniewhippet]

forgot to add in my post that the 'pace' of Dollys dog , Harry, in his super movement picture is totally different to the 'pace' in the lovely pic. of Juley with her pup but can I ask, as she did , can anyone see a noticeable difference?

 

[Seraphina]

Now getting back on track to the English/American whippet differences.   There is a lot of talk about the discrepancy between the so-called

English and American types.There is not much foundation for any differences as the two breed standards

  It is also a fact that since back in 1956 when a point score for the Top Whippet of the year was set up, the winner every year except two has been either an English import or sired by an English dog.

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Somebody pointed out to me that while that is true, the Americans chose a certain type of a dog (long legs, long neck) to import and then refined that type. Famous imports and their progeny are always widely used and therefore leave significant mark on the breed in the country of residence.

 

[jok]

forgot to add in my post that the 'pace' of Dollys dog , Harry, in his super movement picture is totally different to the 'pace' in the lovely pic. of Juley with her pup but can I ask, as she did , can anyone see a noticeable difference?

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This is an interesting question - can anyone see a noticeable difference? I've had my husband move Frankie up and down the gargen at various speeds today (Frankie wondered what on earth we were doing i think!) At the rear he stayed the same, he did not go close as we picked up the pace. Front movement (as is Berry's in the pick Juley posted), lovely and straight both slow and at a pretty brisk pace too.

However, we are looking at pictures of Whippets who do move well. If pace is increased with a dog that does not move correctly, does the problem become easier to spot?

 

[seaspot_run]

Now getting back on track to the English/American whippet differences.   There is a lot of talk about the discrepancy between the so-called

English and American types.There is not much foundation for any differences as the two breed standards

  It is also a fact that since back in 1956 when a point score for the Top Whippet of the year was set up, the winner every year except two has been either an English import or sired by an English dog.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Somebody pointed out to me that while that is true, the Americans chose a certain type of a dog (long legs, long neck) to import and then refined that type. Famous imports and their progeny are always widely used and therefore leave significant mark on the breed in the country of residence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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Well, now, the way I heard it from some of the breeders, such as my dear friend the late Mrs. Peggy Hodge (Highlight) who brought over English imports such as Barn Dance, Ch. Selbrook Highlight, Ch. Dondelayo Shaun, Poltesco Polka, etc. etc. was that in order to get a really good one from the UK, you had to take the larger ones because the ones that were that nice and small enough to fit the English standard were too desirable to let go.

So, it's not JUST that Americans brought over the taller dogs deliberately--very often, these were the ones that were available as they were thought a bit big for the UK, but just right to be big winners and producers over here.

There's no question that glamour and flash means more to Americans, though. We tended to take the long necks that came out of dogs like Barn Dance and try to breed them even longer.

English sires bred to American line bitches was for many years the "Golden Cross" that gave the best dogs. Then, breeders started bringing over bitches, such as Baydale Parsley. "Dill", who I saw in the flesh, was a really useful bitch but she was definitely not small. I would imagine that was a part of the reason she was available.

 

[parnew]

Now getting back on track to the English/American whippet differences.   There is a lot of talk about the discrepancy between the so-called

English and American types.There is not much foundation for any differences as the two breed standards

  It is also a fact that since back in 1956 when a point score for the Top Whippet of the year was set up, the winner every year except two has been either an English import or sired by an English dog.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Somebody pointed out to me that while that is true, the Americans chose a certain type of a dog (long legs, long neck) to import and then refined that type. Famous imports and their progeny are always widely used and therefore leave significant mark on the breed in the country of residence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well, now, the way I heard it from some of the breeders, such as my dear friend the late Mrs. Peggy Hodge (Highlight) who brought over English imports such as Barn Dance, Ch. Selbrook Highlight, Ch. Dondelayo Shaun, Poltesco Polka, etc. etc. was that in order to get a really good one from the UK, you had to take the larger ones because the ones that were that nice and small enough to fit the English standard were too desirable to let go.

So, it's not JUST that Americans brought over the taller dogs deliberately--very often, these were the ones that were available as they were thought a bit big for the UK, but just right to be big winners and producers over here.

There's no question that glamour and flash means more to Americans, though. We tended to take the long necks that came out of dogs like Barn Dance and try to breed them even longer.

English sires bred to American line bitches was for many years the "Golden Cross" that gave the best dogs. Then, breeders started bringing over bitches, such as Baydale Parsley. "Dill", who I saw in the flesh, was a really useful bitch but she was definitely not small. I would imagine that was a part of the reason she was available.

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True, so how do the countries with the smaller height standards fix this problem of dogs just over the standard if the imports that come to our country are from bigger stock, it raises our over all height standard. If you bred with a real nice dog who is 21 inches and get great types but both the girls and the boys are on the top or just over the standard has this been a good mating or breed to a lesser dog 19.5 inches that sire some big and some in the standard and lesser types which would you think would be the right way to go. This is a problem here in Oz and makes it hard when you look for the next stud dog.

 

[seaspot_run]

True, so how do the countries with the smaller height standards fix this problem of dogs just over the standard if the imports that come to our country are from bigger stock, it raises our over all height standard. If you bred with a real nice dog who is 21 inches and get great types but both the girls and the boys are on the top or just over the standard has this been a good mating or breed to a lesser dog 19.5 inches that sire some big and some in the standard and lesser types which would you think would be the right way to go. This is a problem here in Oz and makes it hard when you look for the next stud dog.

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No clue, parnew...at least our standard is hospitable to dogs an inch or so higher than what is desired FCI or UK.

 

[aslan]

I will not change my mind it is the dogs with long weak second thighs that the faster they are moved the closer they become.
I don't disagree with that Patsy. 

 

My point is that moving close is not the same as converging toward the centre of gravity to maintain stability.

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[zafonic]

it is interesting, how though the americans have thier own desired choices, when they have come to judge here in ireland more often than not it is the very english type that they put up! 3 of our baggio's (ir/int ch barnesmore goes zafonic) cacibs came from american judges and he could not be more english in type! Also interestingly here, it is the european judges who tend to put up the more american types, which you would have thought that it would have been the other way around. :blink: