British And American Whippets

[dolly]

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same dog in side profile

PS its mydog

 

[dolly]

I will say, in not one of 17 ch 1st placings, has it said, wish he moved closer behind, or wish he converged !!

:- " :- "

 

[doris]

I was always taught dogs should move to andfro something like this ~~~~Moving across the carpet at crufts, not converging

Not a great photo but

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Sorry to disagree, but this IS a great photo!! Not only can I see a fab pair of shoes, but clearly, Harry is winking at ME!! :lol:

On a serious note, I'm really enjoying the posts/pics/drawings on this thread :thumbsup:

 

[parnew]

I was always taught dogs should move to andfro something like this ~~~~Moving across the carpet at crufts, not converging

Not a great photo but

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Nicky just trying to explain was is ment by that term and if you move the dog to fast they will transfur there weight under themselves. Just what I've seen in the ring and also the oppisite where they get wide in front. It may be that there is something wrong with them and the true whippet movement is hard to find but if all your dogs have moved like the dog of Dolly's then you are very lucky as this is the closest to perfect that you will see.

Love it, this is the speed to move your dog and this to me is how they should look, yum yum yum.

 

[dolly]

:cheers: Thank you :cheers:

 

[jayp]

Nobody is saying the converge at speed is a smack you in the face noticable thing that needs to be in the Standard but is the way a dog of normal build ie not bred to be wide in construction will naturally move, its what makes the dog look balanced and fluid in movement asopposed to say the bull breeds which are bred spread the load over the centre of gravity so if they are barged into they are not knocked off their feet. These dogs move with a noticeable roll because of this.

In a small running breed like the whippet this convergance is barely noticeable in some in others more so depending on speed and drive but non the less is not parallel, The standard says true coming and going which is still true in the dog which tends to converge at speed. jan

 

[Juley]

This is my (then) 8 1/2 month old puppy moving at a decent speed! (w00t) . She ( to me) seems to look like Harry and be lovely and straight at the front.

 

[seaspot_run]

This is my (then) 8 1/2 month old puppy moving at a decent speed!  (w00t) . She ( to me) seems to look like Harry and be lovely and straight at the front.

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Who's that lady in black behind you, sitting with her dog held in a very provocative pose?

 

[Juley]

This is my (then) 8 1/2 month old puppy moving at a decent speed!  (w00t) . She ( to me) seems to look like Harry and be lovely and straight at the front.

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Who's that lady in black behind you, sitting with her dog held in a very provocative pose?

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LOL, we always joke that my arm is a fig leaf as I usually have it over my face. In this case it is covering Alison's dogs errrrrrrrrr ummmmmmmmmm "plums"!! (w00t)

 

[quintessence]

This is my (then) 8 1/2 month old puppy moving at a decent speed!  (w00t) . She ( to me) seems to look like Harry and be lovely and straight at the front.

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Who's that lady in black behind you, sitting with her dog held in a very provocative pose?

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I just know she's thinking "Um that's a smart jacket, I must get myself a little number like that"

 

[seaspot_run]

I thought that was Alison, letting Mr. Monty's "boys" do a bit of al fresco suntanning.

Monty is really shameless in showing his wares to the ladies, isn't he?

:- "

Well, back to the serious discussion......

 

[Seraphina]

if you go to butcher and ask for hock you get the bit from the knee down, not the trotter, which is the bit from the hock joint down. 

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Right-e-o! Spoke to my butcher bosses this avo and this is what they told me and showed me as they were boning pigs at the time.

When you ask for "hock" on a pig you actually get the forearm (from the forequarter). The actual hock joint on the hindquarter forms part of the "leg of ham" so it doesn't get sold separately.

'well let down hocks' was probably used originally because most people in those day were familar with the term from the world of horses and would interpret it in the same way.Pauline

Correct!

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Thanks Lana, I thought I was going bit senile. :b So it is bit confusing. also I have consulted every dictionary and all of them define hock as a joint. All skeletal drawings I poses have the joint described as hock (or hock joint) and the bit from hock down as metatarsus or as this one does the pastern. Although i always thought that when we talk about pastern we talk about the front legs.

As long as we know what we are all talking about, I guess metatarsus by any other name is still metatarsus

 

[Seraphina]

McDowell Lyons 'the dog in action' is an excellent book on movement too.ive had my copy for over 20 years :thumbsup:

pacing is the most economical gait thats why tired or ill dogs use it a lot. also if they are badly built

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This is a good book but it was written in the 50's and modern techniques have proved that some of it is not right.

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It has been reprinted in 2002 (???) I would imagine it would have been updated???

 

[aslan]

Ill ask again. Where oh where do ANY of our standards ask for a dog to converge at speed or otherwise?The British Standard states: Gait and Movement.

Forelegs should be thrown forward and over the ground. Hindlegs should come under the body giving great propelling power. General movement not to look stilted, highstepping, short or mincing. True coming and going .(Thisshould have been at the beginning) Should possess great freedom of action. In profile should move with a long easy stride whilst holding topline.

U.S.A Standard: Gait and Movement.

Low free moving and smooth, with reach in the forequarters and strong drive in the hind quarters. The dog has great freedom of action when viewed from the side, the forelegs move forward close to the ground to give a long low reach, the hindlegs have strong propelling power.When moving and viewed from front or rear, legs should turn neither in nor out, nor should feet cross or interfere with each other. Lack of front reach or rear drive , or short, hackney gait with high wrist action should be strictly penalised. Crossing in front or moving too close should be strictly penalised.

I dont see the word converge in either of those standards and I dont think that those two standards leave ANYTHING to interpretation

Nicky

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It doesn't need to say it Nicky - it's a given under the basic laws of physics. Even dogs that are not very tall and very wide in front will attempt to converge as the speed gets faster. Their wide centre of gravity prevents them from hitting the central line with their feet - but they will still attempt to get there.

Even humans do it. Draw a straight line on the ground in the sand and walk (naturally) along it (not like you were walking on a tightrope-because that's not how we walk normally). You will find that your footprints fall a little way either side of the line. Run along it and you will find your feet fall much closer or even on that line. If you tried to run in the footprints you made whilst walking you would be VERY awkward.

You might also notice that the standard says nothing about moving PARALLEL. And this is my point - if the dogs two front legs are moving parallel with each other and the two hind legs are moving parallel with each other at the trot the dog's body will roll, because it's like it's trying to have the same footfall as when it is walking. A whippet CANNOT move parallel at speed. It is not built to do so. If you ever see a whippet whose front legs/back legs move as wide apart and as perpendicular as they were when it was standing four square then it is built totally wrong!

TRUE COMING AND GOING - means that that when the dog is moving towards you, you shouldn't see the back legs/feet splaying off in different directions from the front. The right back leg should move on the same plane as the front right leg (and same for the left of course) and the same going away from you. The way to describe this is NOT parallel - it is ON THE SAME PLANE.

Viewing from the front or the rear, the line from shoulder to foot or from hip to foot will still be a straight line but it will be angled inwards towards the centre of gravity.

 

[aslan]

I will say, in not one of 17 ch 1st placings, has it said, wish he moved closer behind, or wish he converged !!
:- "  :- "

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I doubt that you were running on that carpet Helen. And you can actually tell by the positioning of your legs that you weren't. So at that pace yes Harry is correct. I'll also bet if you got a photo of him on the move where you were going at a good jogging pace you would see him converge. And he would still be correct! It's just that the line his leg forms at speed will not be perpendicular to the ground it will be at a slight angle - but still a straight line.

 

[aslan]

Moving close behind is a TOTALLY different thing from converging to the centre of gravity - and this is where so many people get confused. Here you will see that the hocks (rear pasterns) are moving perpendicular to the centre line and break from the desired straight line of the leg. This is moving close.

The diagram of the front shows moving too close in front.

The red line is the desired straight line of the leg. Coming or going if you can see the dog's pasterns (front or rear), elbows or stifles breaking free of that plane of the red line then he's not correct. All the bones should move along the plane of the red line (at speed). Again, at a slow trot or at a walk, the red line would be more perpendicular.

 

[Judy]

McDowell Lyons 'the dog in action' is an excellent book on movement too.ive had my copy for over 20 years :thumbsup:

pacing is the most economical gait thats why tired or ill dogs use it a lot. also if they are badly built

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This is a good book but it was written in the 50's and modern techniques have proved that some of it is not right.

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It has been reprinted in 2002 (???) I would imagine it would have been updated???

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I don't know but the author is very unlikely to have been still been alive so maybe not. Its still a good book though and worth reading, it's just that any reader needs to be aware that some of his theories have been disproved by more modern research :thumbsup:

 

[kris]

well although ive never shown or judged whippets the breeds i have had i was always taught that they converge as the gait is speeded up.like someone else here said its a law of physics even if it isnt in the breed standard

 

[Judy]

I've just had another look at Rachel Page Elliotts, "The New Dogsteps" which is one of the books that I think many people on here will have. There's a whole chapter entitled "The Physical Reasons for Limb Convergence Toward A Center Line Of Travel" which is of interest. It takes an anatomical approach to the reasons whilst other books take a more biomechanical approach to the subject.

 

[patsy]

Hi Lana, I said in the post earlier what you should look for when judging movement, but I also asked about the speed you want to see a dog move. I will not change my mind it is the dogs with long weak second thighs that the faster they are moved the closer they become.

It is no good using any examples of the bull breeds or terriers they are so different in construction. I have lived for over 25yrs with Bull Terriers and still have a lovely old lady, I also award challenge certificates in Staffordshire Bull Terriers.