British And American Whippets

[kris]

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theres a very old saying in the dog game.a good big 'un will allus beat a good little 'un :thumbsup:

i think this was attributed to joe braddon

 

[petrezselyem]

My own thoughts about size:

The size in the FCI standard is just one of the requirements what have to be judged. Oversize (and undersize) is not a disqualificationing fault ( like it is in the US sandard) and even not a serious fault. Only a fault what has to be taken account.

There are other requirements: lines, movement, balance, head, ear, angles etc. with the same importance so I think that if there were two excellent dogs with the same qualities and one of them was in size and one of them was oversized no question that the standard sized dog had to be the winning one.

The question is that where the theoretical limit is?

My own experience is that my 47 cm (so top standard sized) bitch is just simply too small for international competition, international rings in Europe. The bitches are much more higher and the dogs even more.

This is not a big problem for me because my first whippet has been an 53,5-54 cm male so this is the "whippet size" for me and my tiny girl looks just small.

The size has importance here in the eastern part of Europe and is sometimes more important than other requirements and this is not good at all. The standard size itself is simply profitless if we have to pay through the nose.....with less quality.

Of course the best was we could keep the standard size and excellent qualities together......was it possible? 8)

About condition:

I think that not the size but the balance is what makes a good and quick dog.

Whippets need long legs, very deep chest what means there is enough place for the heart and lungs ( good underline, well tuck-up), not too wide front and not too arched (not humped) topline. Of course an arch is needed what gives flexibility. And moderate condition.

The trend what I really dislike nowadays is: short legs (even wearing by a big dog), too wide fronts, very heavy built and big round bones, flat topline and no underline. Often FAT conditioned show dogs.

That is not THE Whippet for me and this whole thing debases the racing qualities of the breed.

"Utilization: racing dog" This is what in the FCI standard still stands.

This is something that we tend to forget!

Whippet is still an athletic and functional breed. All the standard requirements should have been interpret in the light of the original function.

I think that function can show us how the correct angles, lines, condition, etc. should look like.

This is my own "religion" again, do not want to hurt or stress anyone, and sorry again, my english is really not perfect. o o o

 

[seaspot_run]

theres a very old saying in the dog game.a good big 'un will allus beat a good little 'un :thumbsup: i think this was attributed to joe braddon

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I appreciate Patsy's input and the above quote I think explains why, without a rock solid height disqualification, size tends to creep up (and this is true in just about any breed) over time.

Here in the US, we have had a disqualifying upper and lower limit on height for awhile and it is my feeling that it has reduced the number of Whippets who measure out in show litters over time, so that most breeders are not sweating height as much as they used to. So, our disqualifications seem to have dealt with the problem of numerous dogs who are otherwise nice, but who are pushing 23". Canada does NOT have a height disqualification, but Canadian judges are very shy about putting up dogs who would be disqualified on the other side of the border, so it's unusual to see anything over 22 1/2" do much winning up there.

But our top winners are all to be found in the top half of the height range. For example, our ideal height on a bitch is 18-21" and one half inch over or under that will disqualify.

It is rare to have a competitive show bitch who isn't between 19 1/2-21" and most fall into that 20-21" range.

Males can be 19-22, but most of the top show males are over 21". While I've had a lot of bitches who were 19 1/4-19 3/4", it's hard to campaign champions unless they are a bit larger than that. The reason is that a good-moving 22" dog always looks like it has a lot more extended and powerful side movement than a 19" bitch. And so it gets bigger awards because so much of the American judging is done at the trot on the go-around (and we do take our dogs at a VERY brisk pace).

Plus, they appear to have more scope and they stand out a little more in big classes.

The breeders and judges have to make a conscious effort to reward correct size without a height disqualification, but this is very hard to do in many circumstances because height is just one part of the standard, and often the bigger ones have plenty of quality other than that.

The great thing about our way of dealing with height problems is that if a dog is eligible for the show ring here, it is also eligible for lure coursing and racing and isn't penalized or handicapped in any way. I am thinking that a lot of the Whippets who are shown successfully in the UK exceed maximum height/weight requirements for racing and lure coursing.

The size controversy will be ever with us, I suppose. There are still breeders and judges here who find a 22" male too big, and won't put it up, but they are a vanishing breed. Without a height DQ, I firmly believe we'd have a lot of 23" dogs out there, because so many of the huge ones just move so impressively from the side. At least....mine always did.

 

[fable]

theres a very old saying in the dog game.a good big 'un will allus beat a good little 'un :thumbsup: i think this was attributed to joe braddon

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I'm not sure about dogs, but this has always been said about horses - most people showing a horse/pony want it as big as the class allows.

I've also found this an absolutely fascinating discussion - very informative. I am a newcomer to the breed , I got my first whippet five years ago, I'd be very sorry if they got any bigger - my girls are generally considered to be of the correct size - although I doubt if they would measure under 18 1/2 " - but I would much rather have them a size smaller than bigger.

 

[playawhile]

Personally I find it very irritating that the FCI has stepped away from its usual way of using the standard of a breed’s home country, for whippets off course the UK. Apparently there are strong forces on the continent about the height issue in the standard but for me the UK standard is the “correct”, although I breed whippets in a country using the FCI standard.

Henrik

 

[maggie217]

theres a very old saying in the dog game.a good big 'un will allus beat a good little 'un :thumbsup: i think this was attributed to joe braddon

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I'm not sure about dogs, but this has always been said about horses - most people showing a horse/pony want it as big as the class allows.

I've also found this an absolutely fascinating discussion - very informative. I am a newcomer to the breed , I got my first whippet five years ago, I'd be very sorry if they got any bigger - my girls are generally considered to be of the correct size - although I doubt if they would measure under 18 1/2 " - but I would much rather have them a size smaller than bigger.

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Just as an aside..I found the comment re: horses and size interesting. I had a friend in the horse world who always said that a horse with superb conformation would actually look smaller than it really measured. Could that apply to dogs, especially whippets, too? So that one perfectly constructed and balanced could maybe look smaller than it actually would measure. Altenatively if the animal looked bigger than it really measured it was maybe because its conformation/balance was not as good as it should be. I haven't a clue myself but would be interested in comments.

Pauline

 

[rubywhip]

Hi All

Not posted on here for quite a while, but this topic is really interesting and thought I would add my humble opinion ! ! ! (for what its worth)

Whilst I can see the both sides of the argument, would we want a splt in our wonderful breed the Whippet,

A split in type has occured in the German Shepherd Dog ((split being German type or English )

My thoughts would always be to follow the Breed Standard of that breeds birthplace, in this case good old England, as already posted on here by more experienced Breeders than myself !

Thanks again Nicky and Patsy for your thoughts on this subject, and I for one totally agree in full with them ! :cheers:

Take care all

Heather and the Khabaray Whippets

 

[neave]

This has been a really interesting topic :thumbsup: Everyone has a diffferent interpations of the breed standard but at the end of the day we have a breed standard here in the UK that is here for a reason and we should therefore be aiming to conform to that standard. If we dont what is the point of having it in place in the first place. I love the English Whippet but i love the elegance of the American Whippet and i think we could learn alot from each other :thumbsup: .

We shouldnt loose sight of our breed standard we should use it to our strenghts, there are so many lovely English and of course Scottish Whippets :lol: :lol: :lol: out there and i think those responsable breeders out there who are breeding for the good of the breed standard and not for the sake of their back pockets should be very proud of themselves. :cheers:

 

[Seraphina]

I know that rear was described that way in the past, in the same time front was thought to suppose to have 90degree angle between the shoulderblade and upper arm, with shoulder blade being at 45degrees with the ground.  I do not think that anybody would agree with that at present.  I think that we all  now understand that the Whippet the scapula-humerus angle needs to be far more open, about 120degrees.

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Does everybody agree with that? I'm not sure I do. What's the reasoning?

The ANKC extended whippet standard [for judges] (prepared with the co-operation of the WAV and W&GCSA) says that the shoulder angle of 90 deg is correct and 130 deg is too upright.

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How many people have Whippets with 90deg ? If that is the correct angulation for Whippet then we are truly in trouble. Dogs with narrow deep chest need to straighten the shoulder angle somewhat to accommodate the chest. I agree that 130deg is too straight but somewhere between 110-120 deg seem to be well balanced.

 

[petrezselyem]

How many people have Whippets with 90deg ?  If that is the correct angulation for Whippet then we are truly in trouble.  Dogs with narrow deep chest need to straighten the shoulder angle somewhat to accommodate the chest.  I agree that 130deg is too straight but somewhere between 110-120 deg seem to be well balanced.

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Have to agree.

 

[UKUSA]

Thank-you Heather and well said Neave its really great that people are getting involved and

are enjoying this topic.

Nicky

 

[fable]

Just as an aside..I found the comment re: horses and size interesting. I had a friend in the horse world who always said that a horse with superb conformation would actually look smaller than it really measured. Could that apply to dogs, especially whippets, too? So that one perfectly constructed and balanced could maybe look smaller than it actually would measure. Altenatively if the animal looked bigger than it really measured it was maybe because its conformation/balance was not as good as it should be. I haven't a clue myself but would be interested in comments.

Pauline

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Pauline - that's interesting,I've never heard that comment about horses before, must admit I don't think that would be the case. If a horse has a very flat or very high wither , it will often appear bigger or smaller than it's height measurement, and of course a chunky cob will seem bigger than a narrower type. A horse that is well muscled and in show condition , and on it's toes at a show will look bigger than when it's grazing in the field at home.

Val

 

[seaspot_run]

Bolt upright pasterns, an open shoulder angle and straight shoulders can add over an inch of height to a Whippet who would be well within size if it were properly constructed in the front.

 

[Sarsanet]

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that, yes, we all interpret the standard in our own way and have a "type" we may prefer BUT when selecting what to breed from or too should not let our own preference for one particular feature overide the general picture.  i do believe we should try to endeavour to breed to the standard not alter the standard to fit the breed.

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Surely, changing the Standard to fit the breed is exactly what's happened with the revising of the Standard. Why would anyone want to change it if the dogs being bred today conformed to it?

There are certainly 18 & 18.5 inch bitches running around Australian showrings. And they often struggle against their taller opposition.

Rivarco Classic Jazz is bred from Sportingfields & Nevedith blood. He may have been born in Italy but he has no Italian blood as such. I have a girl here bred from imported UK parents. Is she Australian or English? In fact she, too, is bred from Nevedith/Sportingfields blood just like Avalonia's new litter so this combination of bloodlines has spread all around the world. So quickly too; it hasn't taken several years like it used to. By the time the rest of the world caught up with the UK it had moved on but now we all seem to be moving in a much more parallel time sphere which is almost entirely due to Nev & Edith allowing their champions to travel to all corners of the world. For which I, for one, am extremely grateful.

 

[doris]

great posts, I'm loving this thread :thumbsup:

and if anyone wants to show some examples of shoulder angles, I for one would be very interested to see them :- "

like the ones earlier with rear angulation

 

[patsy]

Hello Gail, In my humble opinion the breed standard regarding height did need changing, to breed better specimens they did need a bit more size, without going over the top, in an ideal world my wish would be for a 20inch dog and a 19inch bitch, this is what we try to breed to. Yes I have had them bigger not in bitches but old special Brew as lovely as he was I would be the first to admit I would have liked him smaller.

Now to my beloved Jason (Classic Jazz) he is as you say carrying Sportingfield and Nevedith his dam the lovely First Lady was bred by Rivarco and believe me Jason was a very expensive production, Hilary was taken by Mauro to America to be mated to Jazz Fest so you can imagine the cost, and to get the blood behind Hilary. So credit must go to Rivarco. without Jason we would not have had Our top whippet 2007 at Courthil and runner up top bitch Lady Love is his daughter. I am very proud of him and he only mated one bitch last year.He won his last C.C and best in show from veteran 18mths ago and still looks great. He is now longer at public stud, as I feel he has been very under rated.

 

[Seraphina]

The original standards were constructed by people over 100 years ago by trying to describe what the dogs of particular breed looked like. I doubt that the 90degree shoulder was in that standard, as I have never seen anything close to that in any of the old photos.

The 90 deg shoulder is an accepted norm for dogs, but there are breeds whose shape does not support this. Actually if you have a careful look at wild dogs and wolves most have very open angle.

this is 120deg angle (give or take a degree)

 

[Seraphina]

and this is 90 degree

 

[Seraphina]

Bolt upright pasterns, an open shoulder angle and straight shoulders can add over an inch of height to a Whippet who would be well within size if it were properly constructed in the front.

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Upright pasterns is one of my petty hates :b

The question is if a dog is upright in pastern and also badly constructed up the top, should he be even considered for breeding?

 

[Seraphina]

By the way the blue girl above is my Genevieve, her angle is not 120degs, as with most blue it is more upright than that. But I did draw the lines as close to 120degs as I could manage to illustrate what the angle would look like, when superimposed over living dog.