British And American Whippets

[05whippet]

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I wonder if someone could explain how the system works in USA.  How do you make up a Champion, and then how do compete against dogs which have already gained their title.
Jenny

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O.k, Ive been back here for some time now so Ill do my best to remember how it works and Im sure that if Ive got any of it wrong one of our American friends will put me right.

To become an American Champion you have to win a certain number of points. They go from 1 to 5, 3,4 and 5 are considered majors and you must have two sets of majors in your points tally. I want to say you must have 21 points but I could be wrong. The number of points on offer depends on how many are present in the breed however the points in dogs can be different to the number of points offered in bitches, it depends on how many are entered in each sex. The country is split into regions and the points can differ from region to region, so the areas that have a larger number, in our case Whippets,number shown the harder it can be to win the majors. Are you still with me?

If at a show the major is in dogs but not in bitches the Winners bitch Will have to go Best of Winners to share the major or if she went on to Best of Breed and beat enough dogs to bump her points up to a major.

So from the classes W.D and W.B go forward and compete against the Champions in the B.O.B class for B.O.B. Only Champions can be entered for this class, they do not compete for points or in our case the C.C

Nicky

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To my knowledge under FCI rules most of if not all of the European Countries are similar in the sense that Ch's can only be entered in the Ch Class and no other & also only compete for BOB and not the dog or bitch challenges.This is a bit of a bone of contention in Ireland as the first rule applies but not the second one regarding the challenges...it is perfectly acceptable for a Ch to keep on taking the Green Stars as it is perfectly acceptable for an English Ch to keep on taking CC's. But a lot of people in Ireland feel that the Ch's could be holding up other dogs from gaining ther titles as the judges know who is a Ch as they are entered in the Ch class (unlike in England where they are in Open along with other dogs that may not be Ch's and therefore unless the judge knows who's who they wont be able to differentiate) and unfortunately there are a few judges who will not look past the Ch's for awarding the top honors. The feeling in Ireland is that the IKC should follow the other EU countries lead and Ch's should not be able to challenge for the GS's.

 

[UKUSA]

Well it now seems that the movement/ convergence thing has been done to death! So..... there has been much talk lately in the dog press in this country about the addition or not of a champions class, already a feature of North American shows. The chairman of our kennel club says over his dead body but what do others think? Does it lower the bar, making it easier for lesser dogs to gain their title thus devaluing the U.K title( still the hardest to win anywhere in the world) or is it about time?Nicky

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Good one Nicky, now this could be a can of worms!! LOL!! Would it not be better to start a new topic though??

I think we would like to do a lot of things over the KC Chairman's dead body ............... :- "

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Thanks Dessie, We had thought of starting this as a separate topic but thought it kind of fell under the original heading.So whats your feeling on this topic?

Nicky

 

[dukie]

I have divided opinions on this subject. Pam (05Whippet) is quite right in what she says about judges, on occasions, not going past the winner of the Ch class here in Ireland when awarding major honours. But I also believe that the champion is there to be beaten. When I make up an Irish champion in any of my breeds, I very rarely show it again as I have achieved what I hoped I would, but I can also see why others continue to show champions, it may be because they have no youngsters coming on, or they are chasing "Top Dog" awards etc.

If a champions class was brought into being in the Uk I don't think it could be done without adapting all the classes because if a Champion were only allowed to enter in that class, would it then be fair that any non champion could enter in any class it wished? In theory this would lead to a smaller number of classes if the Uk followed the FCI template, and, judging by the entries for whippets at most Ch shows, massive class sizes, even allowing for a one class per dog rule!

And to quote Nicky in saying that the UK title is the hardest to get, I have to disagree slightly :- " :- " , it's hard enough making up one in Ireland!!

Janet

 

[patsy]

I am not for a Champions class at all, the English title is the most prized title in the world and have always felt that a top class animal will get there.

Having judged in many countries where entries are very small, forty a really good entryI always grade the Champions the same as any other class, and they have'nt all received champion quality in their gradings. Also in many countries they do not have many breed specialist judging, a very high percentage are allrounders, not a bad now and again as in this country, it is good to have their views. I have lost count of the number of times when I have been asked for a puppy for abroad it has got to be flashy, for the all round judges.

 

[Natalia]

To my knowledge under FCI rules most of if not all of the European Countries are similar in the sense that Ch's can only be entered in the Ch Class and no other & also only compete for BOB and not the dog or bitch challenges.

Under FCi rules, a dog with a champion title can be entered in the Ch Class, bo it isn't obligatory. To be in Ch Class the dog must be an international champion or a champion of any country recognized by FCI. It can be entered in the Open class (for all dogs above 15 months), or, when talking about working breeds, in the Working Class. However, one dog can be entered in one class only. Depending on the country, a dog from the Ch Class can or cannot be awarded with CAC.
In Scandinavia rules are a bit different, and, as far as I know, dogs from the Ch Class cannot be awarded with CAC, so if one wants to achieve for examlple Sewidish Ch. title, he must enter the dog in open (or working) class, even, if the dog already has, for example, his international ch title.

 

[seaspot_run]

I wonder if someone could explain how the system works in USA.  How do you make up a Champion, and then how do compete against dogs which have already gained their title.
Jenny

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O.k, Ive been back here for some time now so Ill do my best to remember how it works and Im sure that if Ive got any of it wrong one of our American friends will put me right.

To become an American Champion you have to win a certain number of points. They go from 1 to 5, 3,4 and 5 are considered majors and you must have two sets of majors in your points tally. I want to say you must have 21 points but I could be wrong. The number of points on offer depends on how many are present in the breed however the points in dogs can be different to the number of points offered in bitches, it depends on how many are entered in each sex. The country is split into regions and the points can differ from region to region, so the areas that have a larger number, in our case Whippets,number shown the harder it can be to win the majors. Are you still with me?

If at a show the major is in dogs but not in bitches the Winners bitch Will have to go Best of Winners to share the major or if she went on to Best of Breed and beat enough dogs to bump her points up to a major.

So from the classes W.D and W.B go forward and compete against the Champions in the B.O.B class for B.O.B. Only Champions can be entered for this class, they do not compete for points or in our case the C.C

Nicky

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It takes 15 points to be a champion in the USA and 10 points in Canada. Canada does not require major wins.

Most of the rest of the above post is accurate. We are split into regions and how many dogs are required to be exhibited in order to make each point level from 1 through 5 varies based on how large the average entry is for that breed in that area. In the US, a major is 3 points or higher. In a part of the US that I often show my dogs in--Maryland and the Mid-Atlantic region--it takes 12 class males and 19 class bitches (class dogs are the ones who aren't champions yet) to make a 3 point major win, and then goes up from there.

We are such a large country and have so many shows on any given weekend competing for the entries of the various exhibitors in a region that it can be hard to find major entries, even at that relatively low number. There is also an award called "Reserve Winners"-that is the runner up in each sex and if something dodgy is found with the entry of the Winner's Bitch or Dog, then the Reserve moves up and is awarded the points. We don't have Reserve BOB's, though. The joy of finding my Reserve win turned into points is a joy that I have yet to savor, though. :- "

In the USA and Canada, I would say that more glamour is attached to wins at the BOB and Group and BIS level, because it is true it is not as difficult to finish a Championship here. But the quality of your wins is also factored in, such as if you got some of your majors at our big specialty shows, which are very much the same entry numbers and quality as a lot of the Championship shows that are given in results here on K9. I think we have wins here which are equivalent to a CC, and some dogs finish with mostly wins of that caliber, but of course, you can certainly "nickel and dime" your way to a title by hitting a lot of out-of-the-way shows and getting a few 3 point majors the cheap way, such as by being awarded Best of Winners to share a major in the other sex, having defeated relatively few dogs in your own sex.

Also, finishing in a small number of shows is given more status than having to be shown many times over several years to finish.

"finished", btw= "made up"

I've been having a discussion with the co-owner of one of my breeding right now about the best way to get the championship on our dog. He has been doing very well at the all-breed shows and is within one win from his title. The argument for keeping on going when your dog is hot and winning well is that you don't know what tomorrow will bring and it's best to get the title salted away, as injuries, etc. do happen, and wouldn't it be a pity if he were not able to complete a title due to being held out and then having something happen which would damage his ability to show (this is in my mind since the bitch I planned to campaign this year got paralyzed at a race). OTOH, it would give his title more luster if he were able to take a finishing major at one of our more prestige shows such as a specialty or what we call a "supported entry", which is just below a specialty in that it usually has a breeder/judge and a much larger prize list, and maybe a separate competition for puppies called a "sweepstakes".

So, we have been discussing whether to hold him out of the all-breed circuits and give him a shot at our specialties and bigger breed entries to see if he can get his crowning major that way, or go on and just take it at an all-breed show if the judge is there for him.

I guess we've decided to do some specialties and then if he doesn't take a major there, we will go back and wrap this thing up at the all-breed shows. He can always try to burnish his laurels a little more later on showing in Best of Breed competition. But it's nice to get at least one "prestige" major en route to your title, if the dog is good enough.

Because the UK Championship is so very hard to earn, it appears that having it is not a prerequisite for breeding the dog for a show litter. That's not so true here. There are exceptions of course, but particularly new fanciers in the US are strongly encouraged to finish their foundation stock before embarking on breeding. Here, a championship doesn't so much=one of the top dogs in the land as it does in the UK, as it = fits the standard well enough to be worthy of breeding on with.

But, there are always exceptions. A dog who is a very difficult color or has one very difficult fault, but is otherwise lovely might be considered acceptable for breeding a show litter out of. But we view our process of getting to a championship as a validation of breeding worthiness more than as recognition of top dog status.

Karen Lee

 

[05whippet]

To my knowledge under FCI rules most of if not all of the European Countries are similar in the sense that Ch's can only be entered in the Ch Class and no other & also only compete for BOB and not the dog or bitch challenges.

Under FCi rules, a dog with a champion title can be entered in the Ch Class, bo it isn't obligatory. To be in Ch Class the dog must be an international champion or a champion of any country recognized by FCI. It can be entered in the Open class (for all dogs above 15 months), or, when talking about working breeds, in the Working Class. However, one dog can be entered in one class only. Depending on the country, a dog from the Ch Class can or cannot be awarded with CAC.
In Scandinavia rules are a bit different, and, as far as I know, dogs from the Ch Class cannot be awarded with CAC, so if one wants to achieve for examlple Sewidish Ch. title, he must enter the dog in open (or working) class, even, if the dog already has, for example, his international ch title.

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Thanks for that Natalia...I was'nt too sure of the rules for all the EU countries as I know they have their own rules within the FCI ones,I did know however that the Scandanavian countries did'nt allow the dogs from the Ch class to compete for the CAC's.

 

[ainomakela]

In Finland dog from CH class can be awarded with CC )

 

[patsy]

I would like to ask Karen her views on a high percentage of American dogs, not just whippets. holding their titles as puppies, is it the system or the judges forgiving immaturity.

In most countries a puppy can not hold a title, here you can get three C.Cs as a puppy but you need an extra one after 12mths of age before they can carry their title.

 

[dragonfly]

I believe in Sweden they need to get their third CC when they are over 2 years old.

cathie

 

[seaspot_run]

I would like to ask Karen her views on a high percentage of American dogs, not just whippets. holding their titles as puppies, is it the system or the judges forgiving immaturity.  In most countries a puppy can not hold a title, here you can get three C.Cs as a puppy but you need an extra one after 12mths of age before they can carry their title.

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I would be all for a system where you had to earn at least a portion of your points including a major at over one year of age, but every time something like that gets proposed, it gets shot down. Toy breeders, in particular, seem to hate the idea since many of them have dogs who start getting their heat cycles at 5-6 months of age and are essentially finished products at 8 months of age. They don't feel they should have to wait to show in earnest.

Our system allows puppies to win points, so people who have really good puppies go ahead and show them and try to finish them from puppy class. There are a lot of American judges, I think, who like to claim to have "found the next great one" and they certainly enjoy taking puppies very far over the adults and even the champions.

I'm not really a puppy person, myself, as a judge, and think a big class win and a major reserve is a nice award on a puppy. But sometimes, the adult competition isn't that good and you have to go with the best one you have, not the best one who isn't a puppy.

There is certainly a trend here to favor lines which produce very fast-maturing puppies. I don't know that is in the best interests of the breed. Americans like to start winning right away, it seems, so without a rule change there's nothing to discourage the production of very early-maturing puppies.

Karen Lee

 

[dawn]

Well it now seems that the movement/ convergence thing has been done to death! So..... there has been much talk lately in the dog press in this country about the addition or not of a champions class, already a feature of North American shows. The chairman of our kennel club says over his dead body but what do others think? Does it lower the bar, making it easier for lesser dogs to gain their title thus devaluing the U.K title( still the hardest to win anywhere in the world) or is it about time?Nicky

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Good one Nicky, now this could be a can of worms!! LOL!! Would it not be better to start a new topic though??

I think we would like to do a lot of things over the KC Chairman's dead body ............... :- "

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[SIZE=14pt]I'm sure that there are many things 'we' would like to do but surely one of them is NOT devaluing the title of a Champion[/SIZE]

 

[patsy]

Well said Dawn, I hope the English title is never devalued, very hard to win,but a title to be proud of.

 

[dukie]

I don't think anyone is trying to devalue the Uk title, and I certainly agree that for me it would be the most sought after, but surely the onus rests with the judge, in the scenario of a champions class, if he or she didn't think any of the other class winners were as good as the champion class winner, and it couldn't be awarded the CC, then it's up to them to withhold!! We could talk all night about this, and I'm only playing devils advocate here, we all know it's never going to happen (w00t) (w00t)

I personally don't like the FCI system we have in the south of Ireland, I preferred the old way, but we have to move with the times, and we over here have the luxury of choice, show in the UK when we can, if we want or in the south under FCI rules.

As for numbers being shown in various countries, I'm of the opinion that quantity does not always mean quality :- " :- "

Janet

 

[dragonfly]

As for numbers being shown in various countries, I'm of the opinion that quantity does not always mean quality :- "  :- "
Janet

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Hear Hear

 

[Juley]

I don't think anyone is trying to devalue the Uk title, and I certainly agree that for me it would be the most sought after, but surely the onus rests with the judge, in the scenario of a champions class, if he or she didn't think any of the other class winners were as good as the champion class winner, and it couldn't be awarded the CC, then it's up to them to withhold!! We could talk all night about this, and I'm only playing devils advocate here, we all know it's never going to happen (w00t)   (w00t) I personally don't like the FCI system we have in the south of Ireland, I preferred the old way, but we have to move with the times, and we over here have the luxury of choice, show in the UK when we can, if we want or in the south under FCI rules.

As for numbers being shown in various countries, I'm of the opinion that quantity does not always mean quality :- "  :- "

Janet

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Surely that is the whole point. It is up to the judge to decide who the best dog and bitch are and award the CC accordingly. If that happens to be already a champion then that is the one who should receive the award.

 

[anniewhippet]

I believe it is the best & most respected system.........long may it continue :thumbsup:

And as already said if there is a better dog/bitch out there, in the judges view, it should win anyway regardless of class. The multilple CC winning dogs are our benchmark for success surely.

From reading a few other posts it seems to me that a 'shade' of time, money & good planning come into play a little more than over here, am I the only one thinking this? And also the length of time we show our stock, some luckily mature & win early & some are worth waiting for....all part of the fun. :thumbsup:

Sorry if I haven't expressed myself clearly, its getting late........ -_-

 

[seaspot_run]

I like the UK system a bit better than ours, but you show under the system of the country you're in. If you are a talented breeder/exhibitor, you learn to work that system and make it pay off for you in getting your dogs to the best wins available to that dog based on the quality it is for the time in which it is shown. I don't care where you are, there are always going to be shows which are smaller and have less depth of field, and those which are huge and deep in quality with all the top dogs and kennels represented and therefore a win at those shows is going to count for more in the eyes of the fancy even if the CC or the point total is the same as for the lesser show.

I think the value of a championship is greatest when you have to beat champions to get it, but I think a separate champions class would make that even harder, because the judge would absolutely know they were dropping a champion to a dog who wasn't a champion yet. Over here, where we have a separate class, if champions are entered, they win best of their sex most of the time, and if they don't, it's considered rather a slap in the face to the mature champions if a judge takes an unfinished young dog over them. It's a two-tier system and everyone understands that and those of us with young class animals enjoy competing in our classes but don't feel the pressure to have to go BOB and get into the Hound Group until our dogs are finished.

The system you show under creates a certain psychology in both judge and exhibitor which alters the dynamic, even if slightly, in a close competition it can make a difference.

Canada is easier to get a show championship in than the US, but that hasn't stopped Canada from producing many dogs who can win at a very high level in US competition and are of great interest to US breeders. In the end, the fanciers themselves are the ones who really make the final judgment on the merit of the dog, whether it is a big winner, or not.

Karen Lee

 

[parnew]

I don't think that Titles should be granted easy as for young pups getting there titles well half of the dogs are titled then you never see them again as they grow to big of fall apart as they get to open class. Here in Oz a dog needs 100 CC points to gain its title if they get 100 points before they are 12 months old they then need a further 25 points after turning one to get their title. Our young dog was winning best in groups at the age of 9 months and had 225 points when he turned one so when his title was granted he had earned 257 points two and a half time the points he needed for a champ title. This I feel is a good way to go as the dog proved that he was worth the title as an older dog and not that altogether puppy look.

 

[Seraphina]

the English title is the most prized title in the world

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I rather like the system they have in France, where dog has to be certified he can run fast enough before his championship title is ratified.