Colour Preferences In Shows..

[moonlake]

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Historically, blues and blacks have been bred for colour, regardless of conformation or quality which is why they tended not to be good enough to win in the ring. If your primary consideration in buying a whippet is its colour, then that doesn't matter to you and many breeders have exploited this to excess. If what you want is a show dog then blue or black are not obvious choices since it is hard to win with them even when they are good because they tend to fade into the background. The poor quality of many blacks has often been due to unscrupulous breeders having previously introduced a surreptitious cross to a breed that breeds true to black, to increase the proportion of blacks in a litter (although it can result in a preponderance of blue and white). Any reputable/long experienced colour breeder will tell you that it can be frustratingly difficult to breed a black that excels in conformation and is a "good" black - not minky or rusty. The addition of white markings can compromise a dog of any colour if unattractively placed.

So, if you have a black/blue that does well in the ring - make the most of it!

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[Django'sPeeps]

I have my first show with Neela (who is blue and white as you can see from my signature) at the end of February, so I find this an interesting thread. I didn't realise that a lot of breeders have sacrificed conformation for colour or that judges can have a bias against blues and blacks regardless of quality. Hopefully the judges who look at Neela will concentrate on her shape and movement and not her coat colour!

 

[whippetmad]

There are some gorgeous blues,blacks and blue + whites out there,don't let that put you off showing them,go for it!!!

Nice one of Pye :thumbsup:

 

[Esty]

I have my first show with Neela (who is blue and white as you can see from my signature) at the end of February, so I find this an interesting thread. I didn't realise that a lot of breeders have sacrificed conformation for colour or that judges can have a bias against blues and blacks regardless of quality. Hopefully the judges who look at Neela will concentrate on her shape and movement and not her coat colour!

I'll be really interested to see how well Neela does because as you know her markings are almost identical to Grover's. I can't believe that there is such colour prejudice still, based on stuff that may/ may not have happened in the past. I can trace G and R's pedigree back to the late 1800's - how could someone breed another type of dog in there for colour and it go unnoticed? Surely the resultant dog would look like a cross-breed?

I don't know how we'd get around it, maybe have to wait for a new generation of judges who aren't so colour conscious? Feels a bit too much like human society in the 1960s to me!! Can you imagine saying to a model 'you are beautiful, it's a shame you're black!'' Shocking!!

 

[rls22]

I always find the great colour debate really frustrating!! Yes, there are some judges who undeniably are biased towards a particular colour. However, there are many many who are looking for excellent confirmation and movement and how that dog meets the breed standard, not whether the dog is fawn, blue, black or brindle parti-colour. A good dog is a good dog, regardless of colour.

We show a fawn, a red brindle and a white and brindle parti colour. I wouldn't say just because Ruby (red brindle) had done well under a certain judge that it meant that judge would necessarily like my friends red brindle too. There is much more that comes into it than that.

Whippet showing is about far more than colour and as the standard says "any colour of mixture of colours" it should be irrelevant when judging a whippet.

Esty I think you have misread Gay's post. There are just simply not that many show bred blue and black whippets out there - they can therefore not be consistently winning CC's etc as they only make up a very small number of the entries at a show. I would guess that out of an entry of 200, only 5-10 of those would be blue or black.

 

[littlenell]

I have just started to show Vinnie :sweating: and would rather him be left out of the cards because of anything other than the fact he is a blue and white parti. :blink:

 

[Django'sPeeps]

I'll be really interested to see how well Neela does because as you know her markings are almost identical to Grover's.

Thank you! I hope she does well and I hope we both enjoy ourselves regardless of the outcome! It's quite exciting going to my first show, I bet Neela will just get bored and want to make mischief!

However Neela does in the show ring it's not to say that Grover would do the same as her based on their markings being similar... Grover's got his own shape and way of moving that will make him different. Though I do understand what you mean ^_^

 

[Esty]

Rachel, this is the bit I was referring to, not the percentage entered/ percentage won thing..

''The poor quality of many blacks has often been due to unscrupulous breeders having previously introduced a surreptitious cross to a breed that breeds true to black, to increase the proportion of blacks in a litter (although it can result in a preponderance of blue and white). ''

I see what some people are saying - that because only a minority of blue/ black dogs are enterered, that naturally only a certain percentage can be placed but this is self perpetuating in that if only a handful win, lots of show people will not want black/blue dogs just in case it does handicap them...it's a bit chicken and egg. I can also see that it is difficult to get a good black with good conformation because historically black whips have been bred for working. However, we have engineered all modern dogs to be the way they are so if someone decided to go for it it should be possible in a few generations - the problem could be, few people out there are willing to take on this long term task if it means not winning in the short term.

Don't think I'll ever be persuaded that a dog of perfect conformation, gait and temperament should be compromised by his/ her colour. :wacko:

 

[rls22]

We have a predominantely white dog, which I think is just as difficult to show as blacks and blues - he has won 1CC and 2RCC. So as I said a good dog will do well regardless of colour.

It is a shame that you feel so pessimistic about it and not been to any shows yet!!! (w00t)

 

[Esty]

Not pessimistic :teehee: just thinking out loud!

 

[moonlake]

Rachel, this is the bit I was referring to, not the percentage entered/ percentage won thing..
''The poor quality of many blacks has often been due to unscrupulous breeders having previously introduced a surreptitious cross to a breed that breeds true to black, to increase the proportion of blacks in a litter (although it can result in a preponderance of blue and white). ''

I see what some people are saying - that because only a minority of blue/ black dogs are enterered, that naturally only a certain percentage can be placed but this is self perpetuating in that if only a handful win, lots of show people will not want black/blue dogs just in case it does handicap them...it's a bit chicken and egg. I can also see that it is difficult to get a good black with good conformation because historically black whips have been bred for working. However, we have engineered all modern dogs to be the way they are so if someone decided to go for it it should be possible in a few generations - the problem could be, few people out there are willing to take on this long term task if it means not winning in the short term.

Don't think I'll ever be persuaded that a dog of perfect conformation, gait and temperament should be compromised by his/ her colour. :wacko:

Esty - Rachel is right, you have missed the point of what I wrote. What made you choose the puppy you have? Was it because you researched her parents and grandparents, looked at her conformation in terms of how it might develop, watched her move and watched her mother move and decided that she probably would have perfect conformation, gait and temperament? Or did you choose her because you wanted a puppy, she was available and you liked the colour and thought she was pretty and irresistible? Unless you chose her because she comes of winning show stock, the chances of her developing into a champion bitch in the hands of a novice are pretty slim. If she doesn't win, it won't be because of her colour, it will be because she simply isn't good enough to beat the others. If you choose a puppy because of its colour, what you get is a dog of that colour. If it turns out well enough to win at something, you have done well but if it doesn't win at anything, it is not because someone doesn't like the colour as much as you do or is "prejudiced" - it is because you have not picked a winner.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[Esty]

I did actually look at my dog's breeding before I got them and they do have champions in their pedigree on their dam's side, but I wanted them because of their Dad's working heritage as much as anything - I wanted a dog with health, stamina and guts. I never intended to get a black one at all if you read my past posts so colour wasn't really a factor. I'm not whinging because my own dogs won't win anything :blink: It's not on a personal level at all - I have no intention of showing my dogs, it's not something I ever want to be part of. I really don't like the insinuation that I chose my dog because he was pretty colour or that I am in some way lacking because I didn't watch the way his mother moved!

All my original post was asking was a general question about why we don't see many non-fawn/ brindle dogs in shows - I wasn't preparing an excuse for when my dog didn't win....jeez.

Some of these answers are making me glad I am not entering this political arena.

It may sound trite but as far as I am concerned, I did pick winners.

 

[rls22]

Sorry you feel that way Esty, but I think that is a really good answer that Gay gave in response to your original question.

We all take the best dog home and that is the main thing! :huggles:

 

[Esty]

Thanks Rachel but it got rather personal in that last post and made several massive assumptions.

 

[Noise]

I feel a bit funny about the anti show vibe coming off... so what results are some breeders after putting together a show and working bred lines?!

 

[rls22]

I feel a bit funny about the anti show vibe coming off... so what results are some breeders after putting together a show and working bred lines?!

Not sure if I understand your questions properly, sorry.

TC's Badger is from a show dog X Working bitch mating. He has done really well for her in the field and in the ring.

 

[Noise]

who's Badger? sorry :unsure: bit bad with names

it wasn't a question, more an observation regarding the bit about being glad not to enter the ''political arena'' of the show world. and I'd imagine that a show X working litter is a gamble.

 

[TC]

who's Badger? sorry :unsure: bit bad with names
it wasn't a question, more an observation regarding the bit about being glad not to enter the ''political arena'' of the show world. and I'd imagine that a show X working litter is a gamble.

I could say a lot about colour preference/prejudice, but I won't as I might get in trouble. All sorts of people have all sorts of ideas about it. The bottom line is that if your dog is good enough to show then it's colour shouldn't hold it back. Everyone will have an opinion on whether that is true or not. There will always be the judge who, when faced with two identically correct dogs in front of them would go own to colour. After all, there would be nothing else to split them and people will always have a preference.

As said, blacks can get lost in a show situation with a busy poorly lit hall, but they come into their own on the grass in the summer (w00t)

You asked who Badger was? Big mistake lol! Badger is my dog as pictured above. His litter was no more of a gamble than any other, a lot of thought went into it, and it's no different to doing an outcross to another 'show' line. It's not all about what's on paper, it's about having experience to judge if two dogs compliment and enhance each other, and no, I didn't breed him lol!

He's done all that's been asked of him and more. Was multiqualified last year, and went to the first champ show of this year and qualified for Crufts 2010. He works every week and catches plenty of rabbits for me. He races, and he entered his first lure coursing stake a couple of months back and won that.

It is BECAUSE of his breeding that he can do all that!

Good luck to all those showing colours, and brindles and fawns!

TCx

And now I've got to post some pics cos that's how bad I am about him :b :

Don't look if you're squeamish!....

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[Noise]

now I know! as I said bad with names, good with faces :teehee: looking at Badger I'd never guess he had come from working lines, apart from being a different colour, he reminds me of Eskil's dad.

IMO, with working breeds, I'm all for working ability combined with looks, in some breeds working and show dogs look so different.

 

[beaker]

my first efforts in the showring with my black lad Oto may not have been spectacular but that was more down to my very novice handling and not because of his colour, the more he and i learned, the better we did :thumbsup: i did hear on many occasions that i was wasting my time under certain judges with my black dog, thankfully i didn't listen to them as several of these so called "colour predjudiced judges" handed us the red card. (w00t)

i kind of fell into owning blacks, when i bred my first whippet litter i was primarily looking to accentuate the attributes and improve on the flaws of the pairing, keeping a black pup never actually entered my head prior to their arrival, (i'd actually sneakily hoped for a blue brindle)

black and it's blue dilution isn't a colour that can just pop up in a litter, one or more of the parents has themselves to be that colour also, so if we want at least some whippets on earth to be black or blue then there needs to be some breeders out there that will at least be mindfull of colour in their future breeding plans.

i really miss showing my blacks now Oto is retired, i do love showing them in the open air with the sunshine setting off their glorious coats :wub: i'd so hoped to bring Oto's daughter Gyp into the ring but unfortunately she broke her leg and it was never right again, so for now i'll have to put up with the inferior colour of brindle :clown:

Gyp as a gangly yearling