Critiques, All Systems

[patsy]

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In relation to Maggie217It is frustrating for a judge to take the trouble of compiling a non repetitve critique of 1 & 2, when all the papers seem to do is edit/cut out words which then make sentances read totally different. This is the norm, so why would a judge take their time to compile a critique for 1,2 or even 3 when it gets altered.

As an exhibitor(because I was one before I judged :teehee: )

I looked forward to my critiques, I do now, but perhaps not with quite so much eagerness. I totally agree with putting good points(we all love those) but if a judge puts something 'in writing' that may not be correct, then it can be very misleading. I do understand it is only that particular judges opinion but it is possible to condem a dog with a bad/poor critique. Hope I have made that clear?? (probably clear as mud)

As a Judge

I loathe critiques.

I was taught not to write negative comments.

I try not to repeat myself, giving ' the best' critique to the highest honour(CC/BOB) then go down the scale, so to speak, to the next best(Res CC/ Res BOB) and so on.

I have seen critiques which are very lengthy on say a 2nd placing with the 1st only getting a few words!

I am not very good at english literature so always use a thesaurus(good dinosaur :teehee:

Sorry to ramble

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I agree with you Tracy, when judging at a championship show with the entries we get you would hope your first two to be deserving of a good critique. In a poor class though I don't have any problem in saying it lacked depth of quality.

I once had a critique from Bobby James who was famous for saying and writing things we did not want to hear or read, he gave me best of breed and a good critique with Lowglen Micant Madonna but spoilt it all at the end of his critique by saying the overall picture just failed to move him, she moved the best in show though as she finished best in show.

 

[T Hoare]

At  open shows, when you get all your bits and pieces from the secretary amongst these are generally a couple of envelopes, one from each dog paper, with instructions on what they require from you the judge with regards to your critique. You are asked to be concise and you are told  to critique one and two only. Without a doubt they will trim your critique if they feel they dont have the room!Nicky

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This could be another reason why exhibitors aren't getting their critiques.

I have in the past only received an envelope from one paper, luckily it was from the paper i don't subscribe to so was able to get the relevant address for the other.(this was before the age of online)

 

[T Hoare]

In relation to Maggie217It is frustrating for a judge to take the trouble of compiling a non repetitve critique of 1 & 2, when all the papers seem to do is edit/cut out words which then make sentances read totally different. This is the norm, so why would a judge take their time to compile a critique for 1,2 or even 3 when it gets altered.

As an exhibitor(because I was one before I judged :teehee: )

I looked forward to my critiques, I do now, but perhaps not with quite so much eagerness. I totally agree with putting good points(we all love those) but if a judge puts something 'in writing' that may not be correct, then it can be very misleading. I do understand it is only that particular judges opinion but it is possible to condem a dog with a bad/poor critique. Hope I have made that clear?? (probably clear as mud)

As a Judge

I loathe critiques.

I was taught not to write negative comments.

I try not to repeat myself, giving ' the best' critique to the highest honour(CC/BOB) then go down the scale, so to speak, to the next best(Res CC/ Res BOB) and so on.

I have seen critiques which are very lengthy on say a 2nd placing with the 1st only getting a few words!

I am not very good at english literature so always use a thesaurus(good dinosaur :teehee:

Sorry to ramble

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I agree with you Tracy, when judging at a championship show with the entries we get you would hope your first two to be deserving of a good critique. In a poor class though I don't have any problem in saying it lacked depth of quality.

I once had a critique from Bobby James who was famous for saying and writing things we did not want to hear or read, he gave me best of breed and a good critique with Lowglen Micant Madonna but spoilt it all at the end of his critique by saying the overall picture just failed to move him, she moved the best in show though as she finished best in show.

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Brilliant

 

[bertha]

As has been said before, it is part of a judges contract that you agree to submit a critique to the dog papers. I like to get my critique written within 24 hours of judging, while its all still fresh in my mind and my notes still mean  something to me. Yes Ive read too the critiques that tell you absolutely nothing and could be any breed and it makes you wonder how they ever gained championship show judge status.I agree with what was said earlier, it is an honour to be asked to stand in the middle of the ring and give your opinion on the breed that you love and a huge compliment when people enter their dogs under you, as a judge you owe the exhibitors a critique, sent to the dog papers, as soon as possible.

Nicky

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I'm sure I have read recently(not sure where) that all breed limited & open show judges are not contracted?? I have been trying to remember where i have seen it so I know my facts first(how annoying, I can't find it)

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Hi Tracey it is part of the contract when you judge open and limit breed club shows under kc regs

 

[T Hoare]

As has been said before, it is part of a judges contract that you agree to submit a critique to the dog papers. I like to get my critique written within 24 hours of judging, while its all still fresh in my mind and my notes still mean  something to me. Yes Ive read too the critiques that tell you absolutely nothing and could be any breed and it makes you wonder how they ever gained championship show judge status.I agree with what was said earlier, it is an honour to be asked to stand in the middle of the ring and give your opinion on the breed that you love and a huge compliment when people enter their dogs under you, as a judge you owe the exhibitors a critique, sent to the dog papers, as soon as possible.

Nicky

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I'm sure I have read recently(not sure where) that all breed limited & open show judges are not contracted?? I have been trying to remember where i have seen it so I know my facts first(how annoying, I can't find it)

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Hi Tracey it is part of the contract when you judge open and limit breed club shows under kc regs

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Yes I know it is for judging single breed shows, thats why I put all breeds :thumbsup:

 

[UKUSA]

You know, I think that at the end of the day it is a moot point.Critiques are expected whatever show you judge. I know that it is something that has been requested whenever I have judged open shows but as I say it really is a moot point because if it wasnt part of your contract and you didnt bother there would be a riot!!

Nicky

 

[dolly]

I recently judged a breed open show for another hound breed, the critiques both appeared in the papers the same, week. Dog World was edited so much it didnt m,ake sense, however Our dogs was as it was sent !!!

It is very frustrating when the papers, do edit your critique

 

[patsy]

In relation to Maggie217It is frustrating for a judge to take the trouble of compiling a non repetitve critique of 1 & 2, when all the papers seem to do is edit/cut out words which then make sentances read totally different. This is the norm, so why would a judge take their time to compile a critique for 1,2 or even 3 when it gets altered.

As an exhibitor(because I was one before I judged :teehee: )

I looked forward to my critiques, I do now, but perhaps not with quite so much eagerness. I totally agree with putting good points(we all love those) but if a judge puts something 'in writing' that may not be correct, then it can be very misleading. I do understand it is only that particular judges opinion but it is possible to condem a dog with a bad/poor critique. Hope I have made that clear?? (probably clear as mud)

As a Judge

I loathe critiques.

I was taught not to write negative comments.

I try not to repeat myself, giving ' the best' critique to the highest honour(CC/BOB) then go down the scale, so to speak, to the next best(Res CC/ Res BOB) and so on.

I have seen critiques which are very lengthy on say a 2nd placing with the 1st only getting a few words!

I am not very good at english literature so always use a thesaurus(good dinosaur :teehee:

Sorry to ramble

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I agree with you Tracy, when judging at a championship show with the entries we get you would hope your first two to be deserving of a good critique. In a poor class though I don't have any problem in saying it lacked depth of quality.

I once had a critique from Bobby James who was famous for saying and writing things we did not want to hear or read, he gave me best of breed and a good critique with Lowglen Micant Madonna but spoilt it all at the end of his critique by saying the overall picture just failed to move him, she moved the best in show though as she finished best in show.

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​

Brilliant

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Another two of my critiques from the famous Mr James(I did think the world of though) Lowglen Newbold Cavalier, the more I moved Cavalier the more he ploughed in with one hind leg, but he does have a certain something that makes a good one great. C.C. his third and title. He won limit dog. At the same show I won open dog with Masterminde so had two in the challenge I handed Cavalier to someone else, in those days second in open automatically came into the challenge as well and he handed second in open the R.C.C. you can imagine the rumpus that would cause today. When his critique arrived in the dog press he said that all the more he moved Masterminde all the more he fell to pieces, whatever that meant. but hey they were the good old days.

Mr. James caused it even more in American Cockers when he gave the critique on his dog C.C. winner and preceded to say he was much better than his sire who he didn't like at all, the dogs sire was not shown under him the his owners were furious.

 

[dolly]

That is priceless Patsy,

 

[T Hoare]

In relation to Maggie217It is frustrating for a judge to take the trouble of compiling a non repetitve critique of 1 & 2, when all the papers seem to do is edit/cut out words which then make sentances read totally different. This is the norm, so why would a judge take their time to compile a critique for 1,2 or even 3 when it gets altered.

As an exhibitor(because I was one before I judged :teehee: )

I looked forward to my critiques, I do now, but perhaps not with quite so much eagerness. I totally agree with putting good points(we all love those) but if a judge puts something 'in writing' that may not be correct, then it can be very misleading. I do understand it is only that particular judges opinion but it is possible to condem a dog with a bad/poor critique. Hope I have made that clear?? (probably clear as mud)

As a Judge

I loathe critiques.

I was taught not to write negative comments.

I try not to repeat myself, giving ' the best' critique to the highest honour(CC/BOB) then go down the scale, so to speak, to the next best(Res CC/ Res BOB) and so on.

I have seen critiques which are very lengthy on say a 2nd placing with the 1st only getting a few words!

I am not very good at english literature so always use a thesaurus(good dinosaur :teehee:

Sorry to ramble

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I agree with you Tracy, when judging at a championship show with the entries we get you would hope your first two to be deserving of a good critique. In a poor class though I don't have any problem in saying it lacked depth of quality.

I once had a critique from Bobby James who was famous for saying and writing things we did not want to hear or read, he gave me best of breed and a good critique with Lowglen Micant Madonna but spoilt it all at the end of his critique by saying the overall picture just failed to move him, she moved the best in show though as she finished best in show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Brilliant

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Another two of my critiques from the famous Mr James(I did think the world of though) Lowglen Newbold Cavalier, the more I moved Cavalier the more he ploughed in with one hind leg, but he does have a certain something that makes a good one great. C.C. his third and title. He won limit dog. At the same show I won open dog with Masterminde so had two in the challenge I handed Cavalier to someone else, in those days second in open automatically came into the challenge as well and he handed second in open the R.C.C. you can imagine the rumpus that would cause today. When his critique arrived in the dog press he said that all the more he moved Masterminde all the more he fell to pieces, whatever that meant. but hey they were the good old days.

Mr. James caused it even more in American Cockers when he gave the critique on his dog C.C. winner and preceded to say he was much better than his sire who he didn't like at all, the dogs sire was not shown under him the his owners were furious.

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I'm sure my memory is correct(the management is at work so can't double check with her) That we showed under Bobby James in the 80's. I will have to look in my records to see if we had a placing.

He sounds like a card!! I wonder what today's exhibitors would make of him??

 

[UKUSA]

Those wonderful dog people from the past, how we miss them. Joe Cartledge was another and Joe Braddon and then so many of the Grande Dames of the past. Maybe one day someone will put a book together about all these wonderful people.

It would be wonderful to read their critiques today, I wonder what they would think of how the dog game has evolved since their day!

Nicky

 

[patsy]

In relation to Maggie217It is frustrating for a judge to take the trouble of compiling a non repetitve critique of 1 & 2, when all the papers seem to do is edit/cut out words which then make sentances read totally different. This is the norm, so why would a judge take their time to compile a critique for 1,2 or even 3 when it gets altered.

As an exhibitor(because I was one before I judged :teehee: )

I looked forward to my critiques, I do now, but perhaps not with quite so much eagerness. I totally agree with putting good points(we all love those) but if a judge puts something 'in writing' that may not be correct, then it can be very misleading. I do understand it is only that particular judges opinion but it is possible to condem a dog with a bad/poor critique. Hope I have made that clear?? (probably clear as mud)

As a Judge

I loathe critiques.

I was taught not to write negative comments.

I try not to repeat myself, giving ' the best' critique to the highest honour(CC/BOB) then go down the scale, so to speak, to the next best(Res CC/ Res BOB) and so on.

I have seen critiques which are very lengthy on say a 2nd placing with the 1st only getting a few words!

I am not very good at english literature so always use a thesaurus(good dinosaur :teehee:

Sorry to ramble

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I agree with you Tracy, when judging at a championship show with the entries we get you would hope your first two to be deserving of a good critique. In a poor class though I don't have any problem in saying it lacked depth of quality.

I once had a critique from Bobby James who was famous for saying and writing things we did not want to hear or read, he gave me best of breed and a good critique with Lowglen Micant Madonna but spoilt it all at the end of his critique by saying the overall picture just failed to move him, she moved the best in show though as she finished best in show.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Brilliant

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Another two of my critiques from the famous Mr James(I did think the world of though) Lowglen Newbold Cavalier, the more I moved Cavalier the more he ploughed in with one hind leg, but he does have a certain something that makes a good one great. C.C. his third and title. He won limit dog. At the same show I won open dog with Masterminde so had two in the challenge I handed Cavalier to someone else, in those days second in open automatically came into the challenge as well and he handed second in open the R.C.C. you can imagine the rumpus that would cause today. When his critique arrived in the dog press he said that all the more he moved Masterminde all the more he fell to pieces, whatever that meant. but hey they were the good old days.

Mr. James caused it even more in American Cockers when he gave the critique on his dog C.C. winner and preceded to say he was much better than his sire who he didn't like at all, the dogs sire was not shown under him the his owners were furious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I'm sure my memory is correct(the management is at work so can't double check with her) That we showed under Bobby James in the 80's. I will have to look in my records to see if we had a placing.

He sounds like a card!! I wonder what today's exhibitors would make of him??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

They would have to respect him,he had that aura about him.

 

[T Hoare]

Those wonderful dog people from the past, how we miss them. Joe Cartledge was another and Joe Braddon and then so many of the Grande Dames of the past. Maybe one day someone will put a book together about all these wonderful people.It would be wonderful to read their critiques today, I wonder what they would think of how the dog game has evolved since their day!

Nicky

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Now I deffinately remember Joe Braddon, who wouldn't.

If there was a slightly 'larger' lady or gent in the ring he would often send them around the ring at least 1 extra time!!! :lol:

& he used to say things like go again sir/madam I might look at your dog this time not you!! :lol:

 

[patsy]

Those wonderful dog people from the past, how we miss them. Joe Cartledge was another and Joe Braddon and then so many of the Grande Dames of the past. Maybe one day someone will put a book together about all these wonderful people.It would be wonderful to read their critiques today, I wonder what they would think of how the dog game has evolved since their day!

Nicky

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​

Now I deffinately remember Joe Braddon, who wouldn't.

If there was a slightly 'larger' lady or gent in the ring he would often send them around the ring at least 1 extra time!!! :lol:

& he used to say things like go again sir/madam I might look at your dog this time not you!! :lol:

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Yes Tracy we well remember Joe, I showed Madrigal under him at Huddersfield, and won the open hound class and I could not say on this board what he said to the young boy who stood second with his Afghan. Ask me next time you see me and I will tell you.

 

[Sarsanet]

Those wonderful dog people from the past, how we miss them. Joe Cartledge was another and Joe Braddon and then so many of the Grande Dames of the past. Maybe one day someone will put a book together about all these wonderful people.It would be wonderful to read their critiques today, I wonder what they would think of how the dog game has evolved since their day!

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Now I deffinately remember Joe Braddon, who wouldn't.

If there was a slightly 'larger' lady or gent in the ring he would often send them around the ring at least 1 extra time!!! :lol:

& he used to say things like go again sir/madam I might look at your dog this time not you!! :lol:

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​

Yes Tracy we well remember Joe, I showed Madrigal under him at Huddersfield, and won the open hound class and I could not say on this board what he said to the young boy who stood second with his Afghan. Ask me next time you see me and I will tell you.

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You people in the UK are lucky to get critiques at all even if you have to wait a while for them. Here in Oz. we don't get them at all except at specialty shows. I recently attended two specialty shows over Easter. I hadn't seen the critiques written anywhere so I contacted the secretary of the club & asked where I could get a copy. She said she would get back to me WITH THE PRICE I HAD TO PAY TO RECEIVE THEM!! I said I wouldn't pay anything to read them so they haven't been sent to me.

So, you lucky lot, think on that next time you look in Dog World.

Gail

 

[elmaro]

You people in the UK are lucky to get critiques at all even if you have to wait a while for them. Here in Oz. we don't get them at all except at specialty shows. I recently attended two specialty shows over Easter. I hadn't seen the critiques written anywhere so I contacted the secretary of the club & asked where I could get a copy. She said she would get back to me WITH THE PRICE I HAD TO PAY TO RECEIVE THEM!! I said I wouldn't pay anything to read them so they haven't been sent to me.So, you lucky lot, think on that next time you look in Dog World.

Gail

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I was waiting for your take on the subject having exhibited in both countries! 8)

One of the best critique methods I saw was at a dobermann specialty show a few years back ... the judge was given a microphone after judging each class and was asked to explain her placings ... it certainly kept her honest and it was great to hear her opinion whilst everything was still fresh in her mind.

On the other hand, we had a critique on our dobermann done at the National in November ... to read the critique you would have thought we had bred the worlds best dog!! ... one comment that did stick in my mind was that the judge thought his head had lovely parellel plains ... unfortunately this boy continually hit his head as a puppy and has a permanent bump on his scone to prove it!! This has resulted in him having no parallel plains to speak of which is a big thing in dobermann heads!! :blink:

 

[Ms Molly]

Very interesting thread ladies. I personally don't like the pressure if doing critiques after each class, and agree with Jax, where you take photos of the placings and write the critique at home.

In the USA you are under pressure of 2 minutes per dog, and are frowned upon if you go overtime. So its head down and get on with it.

Over the years I have read many critiques, and some are not worth the paper they are written on.

Its not an easy job for a judge to be inventive, so one does not repeat oneself which then becomes boring in the content. Unless of course you are a wordsmith like Espen, whose critiques makes most of look like we are still in kindergarten.

Whilst I was in Sweden one of the judges David Miller, was dictating his critique to the steward whist the dog was moving on the go around, and down and back. This I think made alot of sense, as you don't then have to stop between dogs in the classes.

 

[playawhile]

Very interesting thread ladies. I personally don't like the pressure if doing critiques after each class, and agree with Jax,  where you take photos of the placings and write the critique at home.
In the USA you are under pressure of 2 minutes per dog, and are frowned upon if you go overtime. So its head down and get on with it.

Over the years I have read many critiques, and some are not worth the paper they are written on.

Its not an easy job for a judge to be inventive,  so one does not repeat oneself which then becomes boring in the content. Unless of course you are a wordsmith like Espen, whose critiques makes most of look like we are still in kindergarten.

Whilst I was in Sweden one of the judges David Miller, was dictating his critique to the steward whist the dog was moving on the go around, and down and back.  This I think made alot of sense, as you don't then have to stop between dogs in the classes.

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But Molly now you don't remember how the procedure was...... You don't stop to do any dictating between the classes in Sweden. You put the dog on the table, go over it, move it and then the dog is stand in front of you and you dictate your thoughts to the ring stéwrad who is writing!! After that you place the class and then the next class is called in and so on.... You did like this a whole Sunday!!!

Henrik

[SIZE=8pt](edited to fix Henrik's post and put it outside the quote)[/SIZE]

 

[Ms Molly]

Yes, I like the Swedish method Henrik. I was referring to other countries where you dictate, or write your own critique for your placing's between classes, which does take up time when you are on a time limit. This doesn't however apply to Scandinavia.

 

[UKUSA]

Hi Molly, Ican understand what you are saying. In this country we kind of "grow up" with the critique thing but if it is something that you dont normally do Im sure that it must be daunting.

Nicky