Crufts Photos

[June Jonigk]

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Well said Lanny - we should all be able to say what we think, without it being taken the wrong way, but unfortunately some people do take things wrongly. Does this mean that no-one should say anything about anything? Maybe my comment of 'being robbed of BOB' could have been worded better, but I really feel that a whippet that wins at Crufts should really be the best whippet in the country (of course I know they're not, because the best are on my settee next to me!), but should certainly not be carrying too much weight. If the judge had said to the owner "your bitch is carrying too much weight", no one would bat an eyelid, so why do some people take it as a personal insult that I have expressed my opinion? I haven't shown a dog for years, but my understanding of showing is not only the dogs conformation, but also its condition, i.e.why the ears, teeth etc are looked at - so to me, too much weight on a whippet is to its detriment in the way it looks and moves. I wasn't the judge on the day, and on the day it was the judges opinion that mattered - so well done to the owners of BOB whippet :cheers: I was in no way trying to take away the achievement of what is still a beautiful bitch, I just preferred the dog.

Please don't go Lanny - we need honest people in this world.

 

[Zephyr]

This is an interesting discussion, and I think that a lot of whippets are shown very overweight, but the bitch CC winner was definitely not one of them, she looks in great condition as in the picture below!

 

[Joanna]

Loved reading your post Lanny, and actually learnt loads from it. I sat around the ring and watched the judging of the bitch Open Class. I wouldn't have picked out the winner who went on to BOB, but I could see Betty Beaumont was very taken with her. There does seem to be so much to take into consideration, and of course dogs are bred to a strict breed standard, however, I did hear many comments at Crufts like "she would never pick my dog", "not her type", "wrong colour". Is this sour grapes? The winner should be the closest to the breed standard who is in tip top condition on the day.

Jax pointed out to me how the movement should be, and I must admit to watching for that low reach you mention when observing.

I think it is great to constructively discuss and have an opinion, and June is absolutely entitled to hers. Incidentally, whilst watching the Open class, I was sat next to two owners who were slagging off the judge...............Human nature eh? (w00t)

 

[Millie]

She looks just right to me also, but everyone will have a differant opinion on what they think looks right ! :thumbsup:

 

[TC]

You're right June, you are entitled to your opinion.

And lots of people see the same thing differently. WE could have been standing together at ringside - you saw a dog as a bit overweight, I may not have. We should be able to express those opinions without offending anyone, as long as they are expressed without malice.

I am with Aslan on this one. If I can be blunt, a forum such as this would be far better served, not by attacking particular dogs, but by breeders sharing honestly held opinions about what makes and does not make a good whippet.

And, to get back to what started this panegyric for me -- fat and underconditioned dogs. Honest to heaven I have never seen so many overweight, unconditioned whippets as when I come to England and attend champ shows. I was over in October 2004 and attended South Yorkshire and Driffield, and found huge numbers of dogs that needed diets and more exercise. In one large class at South Yorkshire I counted 2 dogs out of 20 that I considered to be properly conditioned. The rest looked like their exercise comes from rolling off couches and ambling six steps over to the food dish before returning to the comfort of their beds. If my dogs looked like that I would give up breeding because I don't believe you get ever the best out of a fat, under-conditioned whippet.

Poor handling. Maybe some of those dogs really could move if you would quick holding them in a choke hold and stringing them up at your side. Let the poor dogs move out ahead of you on a loose lead and quit showing them like they are being led to their execution. Look at those who win the most and look how they show their dogs -- free, loose lead, well trained so you don't hear a constant chorus of "steady, steady" whispered as the class moves around the ring!

As a final note, perhaps I should say my farewells to all right now for posting this as I am sure I am going to have people intent on driving me off this forum for at least being honest and saying what I see and what I believe.

Lanny Morry

Avalonia Whippets, Canada

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Hi Lanny,

I am impressed by your post and your honesty, but I would like to make a couple of points please.

I am very new to the world of whippets and to showing dogs, I bought my first whippet in January 2005, and after a trauma with SA, my second in April 2005. During this period between dogs I met many whippetyy folks and became interested in showing. So, when looking for a second dog, we looked for one with some show potential.

So off we went to ringcraft, and we've had a ball. Considering that during the formative months of my second pups life I was pretty much incapacitated due to an operation and therefore unable to really focus on his ringcraft training, he obviously suffered and wasn't as perfectly behaved as he could be. On top of this, he was being handled by a complete amateur, who is still quite self conscious and very inexperienced :b

However, he is quite a good dog (and follows a strict diet and exercise routine due to his voracious appetite and tendancy towards laziness (w00t) ) and has a very varied result in the ring. He has had some excellent placings and I am very proud of him, however, I am also understanding of why the judge might throw him out on another occasion if his not moving to the best of his ability, or is erring on the slightly heavy side. Both of these are of course enhanced when he flys his ears :b

I am waffling I know, but basically my point is this. Whilst you clearly believe that you should be seeing pretty near perfect dogs and handlers in the ring, please bear in mind that some of the exhibitors are like me. We are trying our darndest to give our dog the best chance, and we may have to utter the odd "steady" or "wait" but at 14 months old I believe that they are still learning at being "perfectly" behaved, and are more than entitled to have an off day.

I myself love to admire whippets, but I am not looking at them through rose coloured glasses, and especially not my own. I am well aware that he has faults, and know already the certain things that I would be looking for (or not) in my next dog 8) :- " I also know that I am never going to win a handling class, but I am proud of my dog and his achievements and will continue to show him. I have paid my entry fee after all, and even if some people think that he could behave or look better and I could handle him better, we will continue to try hard. I am sure that he would not have taken first place in some of his classes, or best in match etc if he was that bad. Yet I fully understand on other occasions why he could be thrown out against the same dogs i.e. when you can't see his movement properly as he prances round the ring (w00t)

Just one more thing, Jake is the most gorgeous cream colour :- " Seriously though, my favourite colour is Blue, very closely followed by Black. Having been around a year, I am still adamant that I would like my next whippet to be one of these colours, even though it would be a monumental task to campaign them regardless of the fact that they might be a fantastic whippet :- "

Thank you for your post, it was good to hear such heartfelt comments without them being nasty or personal, and I think that this is more of what we need, especially for those of us that are new to the breed. It gives us more insight as to the opinions of others that are not within the same group that we hear from all the time on the circuit.

So, on that note, I am going to go into hiding 8) :- "

 

[Karen]

I agree with everything you say Lanny, well done you. It is hard though, I tend not to comment on dogs that dont please me, I personally find it easier that way.

As for colour well IMO, well you can see my opinion at the bottom of all my posts :thumbsup:

As for Crufts BOB she is in perfect condition, not carrying an ounce of fat and is probably quite a bit slimmer than the dog CCwinner. As is shown in that lovely photo. Did you see her in the flesh June or on the television?

 

[whippynit]

I have very similar background story to TC. Im new to whippets and showing, (previously always competed horses)first discovering the breed and having my first pet whippet in 2004, I was soon besotted with them and also got interested in showing and purchased my second whippet with show poteintal (sp) last year. Like TC ive had some setbacks due to personal problems so im only just started up showing her a few weeks back ( shes 8 months now).

Im not just interested in showing for the glory of winning, i do seriously want to learn as much as possible about the breed and hopefully in years to come will breed myself, Im only 24 years old so i hope this is something that i will continue with all my life and feel i have plenty of years ahead to gain experience. Im willing to work hard and like TC said at the moment im very nervous about my handling skills and im quite a shy person anyway. :b but i will continue to try to improve. Everyone had to start somewhere.

Anyway, my point is i would like to hear more honest opinions like you gave. I found it helpful what you wrote, weather it is 'true' or not, its your opinion. Alot of people do seem 'hush hush' about constructive critism and how on earth are the newcomers to the breed meant to learn if opions like yours ( Lannys) arent given?

 

[~JO~]

I agree that to learn people need comments and constructive criticism and at shows I think it is appropriate and to talk to people there is the best way to learn - but..... I personally really wouldn't like to give an opinion on a photo of a dog - as photos often can be completely unfair to the dog in the flesh. Plus would not be overly happy in putting criticism of dogs on a public forum... for example

I would be happy to say to a friend 'I'd prefer a bit more length or that dog is too femine for me' etc etc but that is not to say I don't like the dog and as we know on the internet words can be so easily mis-interpreted and chinese whispers are inevitable!

I agree with general comments and criticisms of the breed but don't really like picking on individual dogs on a public forum. Just my personal opinion of course :- "

 

[Avalonia]

Anyway, my point is i would like to hear more honest opinions like you gave.  I found it helpful what you wrote, weather it is 'true' or not, its your opinion. Alot of people do seem 'hush hush' about constructive critism and how on earth are the newcomers to the breed meant to learn if opions like yours ( Lannys) arent given?

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Thanks folks for not driving me out of Dodge right away!

Everything we (myself and my son) learned about whippets has come from careful observation on our part, coupled with sharing from mentors who saw our commitment to the breed and were there to share their broad knowledge of the breed with us. We had two husband and wife teams, one English, one Canadian (who travelled extensively to English shows each year) who guided us through the process of seeing dogs, qualities and warts, and learning from what we saw.

Neither imposed their own views on what we saw/what we liked, but they did help us to define and refine our ability to realize what we were looking for and what we most valued in a whippet. Mentors are like gold and I highly commend those new to whippets to find people who have been in whippets a lifetime, and who have done well with them Find people with a proven track record... there are so many excellent English breeders who have won their fair share of CCs and RCCs that I think could and should be mentoring those new to the breed interested in showing. I think our mentors took years off our breeding unwisely, or emphasizing things that might be construed as extremes as we looked to establish a line that has, in the hindsight of time now, provided us with wonderful companions and housepets who have also performed very well for us in many disciplines from showing to obedience to agility to coursing for us.

In terms of handling, I must emphasize that I vastly prefer the English system of owners handling their own dogs, or alternatively, those with older legs or failing health, having a friend handle the dog for them. This as opposed to the saturation of professional handlers that exists in the USA and that is increasingly a blight on the Canadian showing landscape as well. In America it is virtually impossible now for a new owner to finish the championship of a dog by themselves, particularly in the populated areas of the American heartland where professional handlers rule. This is a sin and unfair to the breeder owners who best know their breeds. Instead, increasingly, owners are sending dogs they want "finished" out with a handler, this being their only resort to getting the dog titled for the pedigree certificate. It is not quite so bad in Canada yet, but professional handlers are a strong force here too, and if we take one of our whippets up against someone with a professionally handled whippet we know the judge may put up the face on the assumption that the dog at the end of the professional handler's leash has to be good or it wouldn't be out with that handler. In fact, the reverse may be true, and the dog may be so awful only a professional handler can finish it!

I also love the sense of sportsmanship in England that does not exist very much over here. You would never see any of the top English whippets who have won CCs under a particular judge shown over and over to the same judge but in America people chase judges like dogs chase cars.

We have shown most of our dogs to their championship title ourselves, or had friends help us, especially after I broke my left leg severely (both bones broke in the ankle and now enjoy two plates and 9 pins and I now have a fused ankle which does not have any spring left in it).

I commiserate with everyone who handles a whippet less well than they would like, because I am one of those too! have never been a particularly wonderful handler -- I am a bit too self conscious and I cculd never seem to get the floating like a gazelle with the dog out on the end of the lead like the best handlers do down pat, but I could usually give the dogs enough training that they could pretty well show themselves off to look well, and to heck with me at the back end of the lead. I often thought my dogs won in spite of me, not because of me. I once got so obsessed with the notion dogs should be able to show themselves, that I actually trained one of our whippets (who also had her obedience title) to do the whole routine -- once or twice around the ring, hop up on the table for examination, down and back, or a triangle, and then a final run around the ring all using hand signals from our obedience classes. But I lacked the courage to go into the ring and "show" the dog that way for fear the dog would be disqualified.

With my ankle a mess I have had to resort to friends, including one who happened to have become a professional handler long after our friendship started, but I was still determined when we imported Eng.Ch. Nevedith Ceefa Ceeley a few years ago to show her to her Cdn.Ch. title myself. And I did. I am not sure the outstanding movement of Ceely was helped by my gimpy legged movement, but the judges did notice her and we did, enroute to her Cdn.Ch. title actually defeat for BOB the American whippet who was BOB at Westminster this year and is one of the top whippets in America.

It would be nice if English ringcraft classes would consider that whippets should not be shown like terriers, which is what I think influences the tight choke lead manner of showing whippets in the UK. Whippets are not terriers and showing a whippet and terrier is completely different, but if I were to walk from the whippet ring to the wire fox terrier ring in England I would see both breeds being handled essentially the same. What is forgotten is that the whippet is a movement breed, with very strong drive and reach in the best specimens, and to have the dog walked around the ring at the speed of the slowest exhibitor, in rings far too small to allow a proper assessment of a dogs true movement is a sin for the dog and no help to those trying to see the hallmark reach and drive of this breed.

At South Yorkshire during my Fall 2004 visit I saw a stunning looking whippet dog go into the ring with a youngish man (late 30s perhaps?). Stacked the dog was a winner and I thought if this dog moves as well as he looks, he should win this class. After the dog was examined by the judge and the owner was asked to move his dog he started out with the leash tightly held against his side and the dog pulled tightly in beside him.

But then a remarkable thing happened... the dog, or maybe it was the circumstances and the nervousness of the owner, resulted in the owner losing control of the tight hold on the lead, and the dog suddenly had six or eight feet of leash to work with. That lovely dog started to move like a sound moving whippet should move and my heart took a flutter realizing he didn't just look good he also could move. ... that is until the owner pulled himself together again, jerked strongly on the leash two or three times to halt the foward movement of the dog and pull the dog back to his side tightly again, and then that brief glimmer of excellent whippet movement was gone and the dog became merely no better or no worse in the movement department than the rest of its competitors.

I think he might have gotten a VHC in the end, but had I been judging and seen that dog move so nicely so briefly, I would have brought dog and owner back and asked them to move again, this time on a long loose lead. And had the dog moved as nicely as I saw in that brief movement, he would have gotten the first from me on the day. Good thing I am not a judge, I guess!

Handling is hard on the nerves but we owe it to our dogs to learn what makes them look best. Perhaps the people teaching ringcraft should be people who show great excellence in showing their dogs and consequently help their dogs, and themselves by their competence in the ring... think of people like Roger Stock, Patsy Gilmour, Nev Newton, Helen Wayman, Cathy Brown -- and then think of the people that are teaching you to rein in your whippet so it sticks to your side and can't do what god made the whippet to do -- move effortlessly covering much ground with minimal steps.

Anyway, enough said for now.

On a final note, I am going to post some interesting vaccination protocol information I have gotten from the US in a separate post in a few minutes. I think this is important information that we should all consider.

Lanny

 

[June Jonigk]

Did you see her in the flesh June or on the television?

Interesting you should say that Karen, as yes I did only see her on the TV, and in the photo she doesn't look so overweight. They do say that humans look a stone heavier on TV - so maybe that's the answer!

 

[dolly]

HERES A PICCY TO REMIND THOSE JUST HOW NAUGHTY HARRY WAS

BEST NAUGHTY PUPPY IN SHOW !!!! o o

MY ONLY ADVICE IS WHEN THEY PLAY YOU UP LAUGH !!!!!!!!!!!! (w00t) (w00t)

 

[Karen]

Did you see her in the flesh June or on the television?

Interesting you should say that Karen, as yes I did only see her on the TV, and in the photo she doesn't look so overweight.  They do say that humans look a stone heavier on TV - so maybe that's the answer!

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I thought that might be it, you will have to get your old vertical hold sorted :thumbsup:

 

[whippynit]

I agree that to learn people need comments and constructive criticism and at shows I think it is appropriate and to talk to people there is the best way to learn - but.....  I personally really wouldn't like to give an opinion on a photo of a dog - as photos often can be completely unfair to the dog in the flesh.  Plus would not be overly happy in putting criticism of dogs on a public forum... for example
I would be happy to say to a friend 'I'd prefer a bit more length or that dog is too femine for me' etc etc but that is not to say I don't like the dog and as we know on the internet words can be so easily mis-interpreted and chinese whispers are inevitable!

I agree with general comments and criticisms of the breed but don't really like picking on individual dogs on a public forum.  Just my personal opinion of course  :- "

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I agree with what you say Jo, I didnt mean i think its a good idea to pick fault with a dog via a photo on here as you say either :thumbsup: i was just refering to Lannys comments on the breed standard in general and the good and bad points of the breed today. Of course everyones interpretation of the breed standard is different though.Id just like to hear peoples observations and opinions of what they think is right and wrong with the breed today(not actually peoples individual dogs) just so i, and other newcomers can try and gain more experience.

 

[Windsdream]

HERES A PICCY TO REMIND THOSE JUST HOW NAUGHTY HARRY WAS
BEST NAUGHTY PUPPY IN SHOW !!!! o   o

MY ONLY ADVICE IS WHEN THEY PLAY YOU UP LAUGH !!!!!!!!!!!! (w00t)   (w00t)

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Oh yes remember those naughty days.

But now he's an o o for mummy :thumbsup:

 

[doris]

interesting reading :thumbsup:

I hope that if I ever end up getting myself a nice show puppy, that I'll remember not just the 'business' side of things (I don't mean cash, I mean all the stuff people are talking about on here) but that I also remember that the reason I would like a show puppy is so that I can have a hobby where I spend time with my dog, and meeting other people who are doing the same

even if we're not winners

 

[whippynit]

interesting reading :thumbsup:
I hope that if I ever end up getting myself a nice show puppy, that I'll remember not just the 'business' side of things (I don't mean cash, I mean all the stuff people are talking about on here) but that I also remember that the reason I would like a show puppy is so that I can have a hobby where I spend time with my dog, and meeting other people who are doing the same

even if we're not winners

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What do you mean by the 'business' side of things Doris? i know you said 'the bit people are saying about on here', but i dont understand :wacko: don't know if its me being bit dim! :lol: :b

 

[Fleesh]

Not a showie but would just liike to say a big well done to all of you for constructing such a stable and steady debate/discussion. I think some :- " other forums could learn from this.

Have to admit though even I can tend to be a little critical of those whippets I see carrying a bit of the old podge, show dogs or otherwise. It's our main stay of conversation when we watch Crufts with our "expert" :lol: eye to say that we are "not keen" on a particular dog as it seems to be carrying a little un-necessary weight.

Even I have learnt a lot about the "pedigree" breed today and it gives me greater respect for it.

Well done Avalonia for creating this discussion with some well thought out and well backed up opinions and congratulations everyone else for your mature attitude towards your "sport".

:huggles:

 

[Ridgesetter]

Great post Avalonia. :thumbsup:

When friends asked me what I thought about the whippets, my comment has been that they were walked - not gaited! I felt that many handlers hindered their dog by holding them up tight and not allowing them to step out. This is the only country that I've noted this walking of whippets.

However, my greatest confusion whilst watching the judging was that exhibitors didn't come in catalogue order. Whilst locals may know who is whom, it is extremely difficult for visitors to work out which dog is being examined. Apart from not being in catalogue order, exhibitors don't wear their numbers in the same place so it was constantly a matter of looking for the number and matching to the catalogue which for me, detracted from the enjoyment of watching.

And my humble opinion from sitting ringside, the BOB bitch didn't look overweight to me.

Cheers

 

[Karen]

However, my greatest confusion whilst watching the judging was that exhibitors didn't come in catalogue order. Whilst locals may know who is whom, it is extremely difficult for visitors to work out which dog is being examined. Apart from not being in catalogue order, exhibitors don't wear their numbers in the same place so it was constantly a matter of looking for the number and matching to the catalogue which for me, detracted from the enjoyment of watching.

I agree this is a problem for visitors, thankfully more and more judges are adopting an in order method but old habits die hard. Also some handlers like thier dog up front so they can set the pace or to pop in at the back end (no dont know why!). I once saw one all rounder only give any prize to one of the first 10 or 12 exhibits in each class, I think that was as many as he could remember (w00t) in a class of 20+. Needless to say there was a bit of a rush for the first end when people twigged what was happening

 

[JAX]

Personnallly I d much rather stand where [SIZE=21pt]I[/SIZE] want . At crufts betty made us face a certain way on the table PLUS numerically , now ive nothing against the people I stood next to , but I prefer . with Libbee , to be last , she hates dogs coming up behind her ( she was frightened as a baby puppy by a guy with a pocket ful of change :rant: )

Mikkee , I like to have a front because she can `move out `so much better than most in the ring :lol: , some who just potter round really annoy me , but hey if your dog picks its feet up when you move faster rthen you should go `slowly`

Mayzee always loved to be in the front :wub: I think she would have gone around the ring , done her triangle , up and down, with out me being there o

I quite like the idea in Sweden , where you are numbered by the `kennel name `. you can see all from one kennel and sometimes one litter all together , not very good if they all remember `mum or dad `though :lol: