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Dog groomers restraining dogs.

Discussion in 'Dog Grooming' started by JacksterCo, May 19, 2018.

  1. JacksterCo

    JacksterCo New Member Registered

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    If dogs put up a bit of a struggle - are dog groomers allowed to use physical restraint techniques on them such as placing said dogs into headlocks in order to shave their neck area for example?
     
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  2. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    If U want to get into a lifelong p*ssing contest that becomes a simmering uncivil-war, sure! :eek:
    Great idea - start an endless series of escalations; U use more force in an attempt to "restrain" the dog, they get more & more violent in an attempt to defend themselves from a perceived threat. How do U think it will end?
    :--{ // My personal hunch: badly, with teeth in yer flesh, somewhere, sometime.

    U **do** realize that dogs struggle when "restrained" / pinned / forced / manhandled BECAUSE they're frightened, yes?
    They're not struggling 'cuz they're "dissing U", being stubborn, being DOMINANT, or just out of cussedness, to tick U off - they're scared. Holding them tighter won't reassure them! - it only convinces them that they're about to die.

    If U want to groom a dog with the least stress to the animal & yerself, take yer time, use minimal restraint, & reward co-operation instead of rigidly forcing them to submit.
    I'd use calmatives - DAP pump-spray, botanical lavender water; I'd get a copy of DVM Yin's Low Stress Handling textbook & DVD, I'd read it cover to cover, & I'd watch the live-demos attentively.

    For dogs who've already suffered thru repeated high-stress, forcible grooming sessions, they may need to break it up into short bouts of 5 to 10-mins, or even come back for a finishing session 2 or 3 days later. // It's worth it to de-stress the process & get a committed clientele of owners who bring their dogs back, again & again.

    OToH, if U like all-in wrestling an animal with 42 sharp teeth & faster reflexes than humans, have a good time.
    :shrug: Totally up to U. // I don't like being bitten, myself, & i also don't like stressing an animal, nor do i enjoy yanking a resistive client around & forcing them to stand / sit / lay on their sides / stay in the tub / GODDAM HOLD STILL / etc.
    I go with making the process as pleasant as possible, & building trust.

    Sample: TUCKER -
    an Airedale who's been forced, manhandled, & punished using increasingly-harsh methods since his owners got him as a pup, on the advice of their vet & several "trainers". :rolleyes: Her husband now handles him with LINEMAN'S GAUNTLETS, & he will bite with full-force & full-mouth if U so much as try to comb him out, scissor, clip, or trim claws.
    In this video, he's handled by asking him to PUT HIS PAW into someone's hand, & allow clipping - with a marker to identify the desired behavior for the dog, & treats to reward that behavior. it's real-time - at no point is he "made" to do anything. 7-minutes elapsed time.




    IMO & IME, fighting a dog is only an option in a genuine
    emergency - which grooming is not. If someone is about to be bitten or the dog is about to be severely injured, do what U gotta; under any other circs, don't use force.
    - terry

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  3. Mad Murphy

    Mad Murphy Well-Known Member Registered

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    A headlock???? If a groomer did that to my dog there would be a whole world of trouble landing on their head.

    A good groomer should be able to calm a dog and work with a dog to get over any fear it has not increase the fear by using physical abuse.
     
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  4. Violet Turner

    Violet Turner Well-Known Member Registered

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    No, as they could get in real trouble.
     
  5. Zero

    Zero New Member Registered

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    If anyone head locked my dog, there would be a whole world of trouble landing at their feet! I'm no dog whisper, merely just an owner, but if my dog was freaking out, i know trying to restrain him like that would make the situation a million times worse.
     
  6. thedogsbeforetime

    thedogsbeforetime Active Member Registered

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    I've never seen someone head lock a dog.....but groomers often do use restraint, yes. If people actually worked with their dogs at home, instead of expecting us to be able to brush, trim nails, clean ears, trim their dogs, etc. every six months, no issue, with them doing none of it at home, it'd be a lot easier. But sometimes you need to use some restraint for the safety of people and dogs. No one ever wants a dog flipping out so bad or so stressed they hurt themselves, of course. Sending dogs home without being done happens, but you can't just give up right away, when 95 percent of the dogs who come in for grooming aren't going to like, probably, a couple things you are doing.
     
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  7. Jillian Danson

    Jillian Danson Member Registered

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    If I saw my groomer using restraints like you describe it would be the last time she touched my dogs. Our groomer is amazing. She shows up in a van and the dogs are not just bathed, they have a jacuzzi! Our dogs hate having their nails done so she even purchased a sling that holds the whole weight of the dogs in the air so their little legs hang down and they don't mind their feet being touched at all when she uses it. No dog should feel distress when being groomed. I would look for someone else if I were you.
     
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  8. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    WOW, that sling sounds so cool! - I've never seen those here, can U post a link or a photo?
    I wonder if the make those, stateside - I've never heard of 'em, & I've been in & out of big grooming salons with all sorts of gear - hydraulic grooming tables whose tops flip vertical, operated by foot pedals; power-clippers that have overhead AC-wiring on springs, to run the clippers, which prevent tangles or shocks & cord-wear / tripping; bath tubs with steps for the dog to mount & enter, allowing them to exit safely on their own [vs be lifted out]; bath tubs with FLOORS that rise as the water runs out!, to make the "tub" level with a waist-high landing that has stairs for egress & ingress; centralized shampoo & conditioner, with 5-gallon demijohns cabled to each bathtub & a push-button dispenser to deliver a measured amount... all sorts of bells & whistles.
    But i've never seen a full-suspension dog sling.

    Do they resemble scaled-down horse slings? - very cool concept, in any case. :)

    - terry

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  9. JudyN

    JudyN Well-Known Member Registered

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    I'd worry the dog was completely shut down in the sling - more 'can't resist' than 'doesn't feel the need to resist'.
     
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  10. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    QUOTE, JudyN:

    I'd worry the dog was completely shut-down in the sling - more 'can't resist', than 'doesn't feel the need to resist'.

    _____________________________________
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    I dunno - if the dog's entire wt is held up by the sling, then s/he doesn't need to stand on 3 legs to have one paw & its claws messed with; no stressful requirement that they "stand still" or "sit still" wihle trying to balance on an irregular tripod vs a nice stable rectangle, with a leg at each corner.

    I'd have to see the dog in the sling, on live-recorded video, to be able to see if s/he's genuinely relaxed, or is actually scared stiff, & only "looks" calm. Looks can indeed be deceiving, but a dog who is stiff, contracted, legs rock-hard & paws rigidly spread, who is holding their breath in apprehension... that's a worried dog.

    Especially disturbing to see & hear, any dog who pants in short hard breaths, inhaling THRU THEIR NOSE ONLY with the jaws closed, & then blows out thru the flews on the exhale, fluttering their lips apart over their clenched teeth - such a dog is terrified, & can die of core-temp rising to 104' F or over, or can suffer a eart attack, stroke, or organ damage. :eek:
    Those dogs will also have extremely-dilated pupils, often pronounced whale-eye, & they can be so panicked that their eyes literally protrude from their skulls. // That's super-high stress, they need to be removed from the situation immediately, & allowed to hide for awhile in a quiet place, with cool [not COLD] water to drink, in a cool well-ventilated area, so they can destress.

    The most-damaged dog I've ever personally worked with was in such a constant state of terror that he was as frozen as a garden gnome; U could pick him up, carry him off, set him down, & he'd be IN THE SAME POSITION as when U picked him up.
    He was also pose-able: U could pick up any of his paws as he stood, & he'd STAND ON 3 LEGS, too frightened to put down the paw U'd lifted, until his 3 legs began to shake with the strain; then when he was forced to either put down the raised paw, or fall down, he'd finally lower it, & then shrink into himself like a marine anemone, afraid U'd kill him for moving. :eek: :(
    Dakota was a hot mess of anxieties & panic; he took a lot of fixing. :head-shake:

    - terry

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  11. Jillian Danson

    Jillian Danson Member Registered

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  12. Jillian Danson

    Jillian Danson Member Registered

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    Hi Terry, I will ask Diane, our groomer, if I can share a link with you and get as much info as I can. I won't go into the van while they are being groomed because once they see "mummy" they want me, no matter what stage of grooming they are at so I don't do it out of respect for Diane.
     
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  13. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    thanks so much, @Jillian Danson -
    I am so interested to find out if this is even available, on our side of the Pond. :)

    claw-trims are usually THE most-challenging & worrying part of dog-husbandry, & it's a real shame - if dog owners would habituate their dogs, preferably beginning as pups, the dogs would be far-less anxious & could trust someone to handle their infinitely-important paws. :(
    Any dog can be habituated to paw-handling & claw trims at any age - adulthood is not "impossible to train". Adults just have more practice at resisting paw-handling, & quite possibly they've had genuine bad experiences, being quicked painfully & walking for a week or so on a very, very tender claw, with the pulp exposed - like walking barefoot with one or more toes with the very tip of the toe shallowly sliced-off, so that every time U put Ur foot down, & feel pain & wince reflexively.
    Pups resist paw-handling 'cuz A, it requires holding still for a few seconds, B, it's messing around with parts they don't want messed with, & C, it's weird & novel. JUST MAKING PAW-HANDLING NORMAL b4 U ever try to clip the tip off one claw, will get U a long way toward co-operation.
    OTOH, if U just grab a paw & clip a claw, especially if U use an old-fashioned guillotine claw-clipper, U may spend the next 2 or 3 years getting that pup, now a dog, to relax & let U trim a claw without resistance. :(

    Don't just "shake paw" & drop it - ask the pup to lay her or his paw on yer palm, & U pet it, just once or twice, lightly, stroking down the full length of the upper surface. Once s/he can do that easily, pet the UNDER side - from the dewclaw pad near the wrist, all the way to the tips of the claws, in a nice sweeping firm-but-gentle continuous stroke. Do that on Urself, now - run the whole length of yer fingers, palm-up, from above yer own wrist all the way down to the fingertips of the other hand, in one stroke. How does it feel? - it should feel supportive, not constraining; affectionate, not intrusive; giving, not demanding.
    Play with yer dog's paws - pat them, & specifically during play, slap them lightly, & let her or him slap Ur hands on response. Wipe them with a warm damp washcloth; massage their legs from the body down to the paw, individually, & be sure to spread the pads & very gently, smoothly massage the tender skin that runs between the pads; then massage back up the leg, paw, wrist, forearm... all the way up.
    Handling should equal pleasure, not always "restraint, restraint, restraint". That way, the relatively few times U must restrain the dog, U already have a bank-account of trust on deposit, & when s/he is in pain or terrified, U can still draw on that. [Don't forget to top it up, afterward - always keep the balance on the savings side of the page, not on the debit side.]


    Guillotine claw-cutters are the tool of the Devil - they are designed just like hand-held pruning shears with one blade, like a curved razor, & a flat opposing surface. They don't actually "cut"; rather, they whack-off a hunk of claw like a chisel driven by a hammer. They force a sharp edge thru the claw while it's laid against an anvil, & when the force reaches a critical intensity of so-many pounds per square inch, the claw "fails", & is sheared thru.
    There's a huge bone-conducted CLUNK! that goes clear-up the dog's arm from the claw thru its tendon & bone, all the way to their elbow & into the shoulder - it's LOUD, they hear it in their ears, but worse, they feel it in their bones, & it's very startling.
    If U use an electric toothbrush, the bone-conducted noise of the brush against yer teeth blots-out virtually the entire audible world; bone-conducted sound is dam* noisy.

    these are guillotine claw-pruners:

    Screen Shot 2018-06-12 at 11.38.26 AM.png



    If U want a low-stress claw trim,
    I'd use low-stress tools.
    - double-bladed cutters, clean & sharp.
    Heavy-duty toenail trimmers for humans are a good tool - so are claw-scissors.

    Screen Shot 2018-06-12 at 11.44.06 AM.png

    Screen Shot 2018-06-12 at 11.47.46 AM.png


    - a file
    Use it at an angle, with the face of the file at about 45', and also hold the file itself at about 45' to the claw, on the side of the claw; always stroking FORWARD from the back of the nail, with the direction of growth - then do the other side the same way, 45' face, at a 45' angle to the side - never stro
    ke BACK, against the growth, as U might split the claw or weaken it, & it can crack painfully under force, particularly as the dog runs on a paved surface, but any one claw can also hit a stone while walking or running on an otherwise-softer substrate, soil or turf.
    The claw must be solid to withstand impact, & to be able to flex without shattering.

    Nail files can be metal, glass, fiberboard, ceramic, or stone - fine pumice makes an excellent file.
    Fiberboard files are disposable cr*p - diamond-cut metal files are inexpensive, durable, washable, & can be sanitized. Glass is great, but don't drop it! Ceramic, too, is durable & washable. Grindstones in fine grades are excellent.

    Always wash & dry Ur file after use, & sanitize it between one dog & the next!

    - a grinder

    U should always wear a disposable fine-particulate mask when using a nail-grinder. Everything the dog has walked over or in, will be on & in that claw - U don't want to inhale E. coli, soil fungi, automotive-exhaust particles, metal oxides, & other microdebris. Use the mask once, & toss it; all the tiny junk goes with it.
    There are compostable masks that create minimal waste, just the elastic is not degradable.

    Electric grinders are great - but be VERY careful not to touch the SKIN, as the grinder gets hot as H*** during use, & can burn badly-enuf to raise a blister. Dip in, grind for a few seconds, lift it away. Be accurate & brief - don't dwell on the claw, as that's what heats the grinder quickly, & when U exert continuing pressure, U're liable to slip. U can always go back.
    Take a break between one claw & the next, to let the grinder cool, & use the scissors, nail-trimmers, or file during that pause.

    How to get the dog in reach?
    How to best support the dog?

    I have the dog lie on their side, on a comfy surface, with a drop-cloth under them; a grooming table with me sitting beside it in a chair is good. An old sheet is fine, as a drop-cloth for a large dog; a double-bed sheet folded in quarters is big-enuf for most dogs; a twin-sheet folded in half, top to bottom, might be even better.
    The dog could also lie on a sofa, while I sit adjacent to their head or tail, to reach forepaws or hind paws, as needed. A toy-dog can sit or lie in my lap, with an apron crosswise under them to catch trimmings or nail-dust.
    [Don't SHAKE the apron or any drop-cloth; fold it from the outside in, so all the bits are pocketed inside the fabric, to carry it; then take it to the kitchen or bathroom or laundry, unfold it carefully inside the sink or tub, &
    spray the upper surface off in a deep sink, or in the bathtub using the shower-head. Now, U can hang it to drip, B4 putting it in the wash with a load of heavy-duty laundry - or with normal laundry, just give the load extra wash-time, 10-minutes rather than 5, for instance.]

    "Can't have a horse without a hoof." Similarly, claw & paw care is very important to any dog - overgrown claws can curve to puncture the foot, or splay the toes & pads abnormally, injuring the leg with strange torque forces.
    At the same time, U don't want claws too short - they provide cleat-like propulsion, & protect the toes & pads. Stubby claws are useless, & with so much open-face on the claw, very susceptible to cracks & infection.

    - terry


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  14. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    OTC calmatives [over-the-counter = no Rx needed] can also be helpful

    How Do Calming Dog and Cat Pheromones Work? | petMD

    I don't suggest the plug-in diffusers; they're site-specific, & aren't evenly distributed, being most concentrated, of course, right around the diffuser.
    Pump-spray pheromones can be put anywhere U want them, refreshed ad-lib, & used when & where they are needed.
    :) . Great stuff, IME.

    also, as the article points out, pheromones don't "not work". If they're used after the animal is already upset, they're less effective; they aren't instantaneous, so apply them 10 to 15-mins B4 a known stress begins.
    If something scary or intensely exciting happens unexpectedly, use them immediately - don't "wait to see how they react", do it NOW.
    OTC calmatives are also not silver bullets - U can't use 2 or 3 different calmatives, then flood the dog, & say, "they don't work". It's still necessary to stay under-threshold, but OTC calmatives can often raise that threshold, allowing the dog to progress more-quickly, & with less stress. :)

    happy training,
    - terry

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  15. Biker John

    Biker John Well-Known Member Registered

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    No experience about using slings in a groomers, (Whippets do not need to visit them), but at racing the dogs are weighed. To do this they are put in a sling then the sling hung on a scale. I have seen many dogs go through this and I would say they are all relaxed, ok the dogs will have been weighed many times and so will be used to it which might not apply to a dog being put in one for the first time.
     
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  16. JacksterCo

    JacksterCo New Member Registered

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    I am not exactly sure how to interpret or respond to your post other than a negative manner so I will try my best to be civil. Yes, working with any animal can be dangerous at times but resorting to lengths such as placing a dog in a headlock is pretty extreme if you ask me. If you're suggesting dog groomers are justified in doing said actions which I believe you are, I would never trust you with any type of animal and I would even go as far as turning any potential customers away from your business (I presume you're the woman in the video) since you justify those type of actions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  17. JacksterCo

    JacksterCo New Member Registered

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    This is what the dog groomer told my parents she had to do as well as wrestle him out of the bath. Harvey does put up a bit of a struggle but he is no way as bad to even justify the actions she carried out.
     
  18. JacksterCo

    JacksterCo New Member Registered

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    My thoughts exactly.
     
  19. JacksterCo

    JacksterCo New Member Registered

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    I understand the needs for restraints but becoming physical with a dog yourself is what crosses the line.
     
  20. leashedForLife

    leashedForLife Well-Known Member Registered

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    QUOTE, JacksterCo:

    ... I will try my best to be civil.
    Yes, working with any animal can be dangerous at times, but resorting to lengths such as placing a dog in a headlock is pretty extreme, if you ask me.

    ___________________________________
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    Now I'm confused. :confused: U seemed to be asking if it was OK to use headlocks in order to groom a resisting or frightened dog. // My reply, in a word, was NO.




    QUOTE, JacksterCo:

    If you're suggesting dog groomers are justified in... said actions...
    _______________________________
    .
    No, I am not. // I'm explaining why such tactics are a really, really lousy idea.



    QUOTE, JacksterCo:

    ...I presume you're the woman in the video...
    ________________________________________
    .

    3 strikes, yer out! :D - Wrong, again.
    Did U actually watch the video? I doubt it; the woman is the dog's owner, & in fact, it's a real-time clip of B-Mod with her 12-MO Airedale, who is never "restrained" in the video. Everything that he does is opt-in, & rewarded.

    Have a nice life,
    - terry

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