Electric Shock Collars

[jayp]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

I really do think the present training philosophy of ignore bad behavior and reward good causes big problems.

My brother has a Visla, when it was a pup it started to bite to the extent his 11 year old son became afraid of the pup, they were not enjoying each other, a trainer was consulted who suggested yes youve guessed it ignore him when he bites, make a loud noise or distract him with more rewarding games. This gem resulted in the pup carrying on biting, noise exited him more and made him worse,distracting him with games was ok until they wanted to stop and he didnt.

After a while the breeder was contacted as the pup was making their lives a misery, she suggested a sharp no and a old fashioned clonk with a newspaper,shock horror the pup did NOT become afraid of them or develop a newspaper phobia but he did stop biting immediately without stress and is now a cracking dog.

I dont think anyone is suggesting that shock collars become the norm but they have their place when all else fails

My whippet has also been zapped by stock fencing and it resulted in him staying very close to me for a while as i was safety.

As i have said in a previous post fear is what keeps us all safe, we live by the consequences of our actions and this in the animal kingdom is what enables them to live together in social groups. If a dog was not afraid of snakes, larger predators, the pack leader,cliff edges,swollen rivers etc the species would simply not survive. SO ACTIONS THAT RESULT IN UNPLEASANT CONSEQUENCES ARE TO BE AVOIDED.

 

[Lou_Castle]

I really do think the present training philosophy of ignore bad behavior and reward good causes big problems.

It works except when the behavior is self-rewarding and then it doesn't work at all. Even when it does work it may take more time than people are willing to spend. This whole wave of anti-punishment sentiment that seems to be so common there is, I think bad, for the dogs in the long run.

It leads people to having undesirable behavior inflicted on them for much longer than is necessary. So-called all positive trainers have scared people into believing that their dogs will be afraid of them or "won't love them anymore" if they use punishment.

My brother has a Visla, when it was a pup it started to bite to the extent his 11 year old son became afraid of the pup, they were not enjoying each other, a trainer was consulted who suggested yes youve guessed it ignore him when he bites, make a loud noise or distract him with more rewarding games. This gem resulted in the pup carrying on biting, noise exited him more and made him worse,distracting him with games was ok until they wanted to stop and he didnt.After a while the breeder was contacted as the pup was making their lives a misery, she suggested a sharp no and a old fashioned clonk with a newspaper,shock horror the pup did NOT become afraid of them or develop a newspaper phobia but he did stop biting immediately without stress and is now a cracking dog.

Rather than teaching people how to properly apply punishment so-called all positive trainers have demonized it and many people have come to believe that it's a horrible thing.

I dont think anyone is suggesting that shock collars become the norm but they have their place when all else fails

I wouldn't have a problem if they did become commonplace. They're more gentle, when used as I advocate, than the "clonk" with a news paper your brother's Visla got.

 

[Mattie]

QUOTE(Mattie @ Jun 17 2007, 08:26 AM)This does show that what can seem cruel need not be, but a pelham used normally and not abused isn't cruel, it is how the rider uses the reins that can be cruel.

 

And such is the case with the Ecollar and many other tools as well.

Have I said it wasn't?

If you and the dog can get in, the dog can get out. If there's a gate, the dog can get out when someone else opens it.

That depends on were you are and who has access, many dog owner pay to use an enclosed area to let their dogs run free, they are the only ones allowed in at that time so nobody should be opening the gate.

Keeping a dog on a leash for its entire life is not a good plan and doesn't replace teaching a reliable recall. Leashes break. They get pulled out of people's hands. Dog slip out of their collars and harnesses if they're not adjusted properly. When those things occur a dog that does not have a good recall is at risk.

Were did I say to keep a dog on a lead all the time?

You can get an escape proof harness and there has been no case of a dog getting out of one of these. TRPD make them to order.

I think it's important for dogs to obey commands for several reasons.

Taking the Michael is not disobeying orders, it is when we are playing with our dogs and often the play comes imediately after the training.

The handler is the one that's in charge of the dog, not the other way round. If the dog doesn't want to get stimmed all he has to do is to obey. It's only minor discomfort anyway.

I didn't say that the dog was in charge Lou, I said "With these fences the animal has a choice to go and touch it or not, with an e collar it doesn't, the handler has the choice not the dog. " A dog doesn't have any choice over his handler using the e collar, many owners don't use these collars as you do.

QUOTE(Mattie @ Jun 17 2007, 09:09 AM)With someone experienced and a good trainer this doesn't matter, but often people using these have bad timing and if they think it hasn't worked will turn up the power to really punish the dog.

 

Those people need to be educated. In any case, they'll soon find that it has the opposite effect and will stop.

The one I saw the dog ended up being pts because of the way the e collar was used, and yes, she knew the theory of the e collar, you and Denis have taught me well but she didn't practice it, she would panic and then turn it up until the dog did scream on quite a lot of occasions. It got to the stage were she wouldn't have it on her dog when I was there.

I really do think the present training philosophy of ignore bad behavior and reward good causes big problems.

A lot depends on the behaviour, sometimes it is best to ignore it but mainly it is better to stop the unwanted behaviour. There are many ways of stopping it the unwanted behaviour, a lot depends on what it is you want stopping. Hope that makes sense.

My brother has a Visla, when it was a pup it started to bite to the extent his 11 year old son became afraid of the pup, they were not enjoying each other, a trainer was consulted who suggested yes youve guessed it ignore him when he bites, make a loud noise or distract him with more rewarding games. This gem resulted in the pup carrying on biting, noise exited him more and made him worse,distracting him with games was ok until they wanted to stop and he didnt.

Pups and mum dog don't ignore another pup that bites so why should we?

As i have said in a previous post fear is what keeps us all safe, we live by the consequences of our actions

Unfortunately children today are not allowed to play out, go down the woods etc and are not learning about dangers and fears.

 

[*Lesley*]

Have never used a shock collar but would just like to make this commentDont all animals lincluding humans learn by fear. Its called operant conditioning.

If a pup gets too boisterous its elders growl,nip etc, it hurts its scary and the pup does not wish to repeat this. If a horse is too pushy it is kicked or bitten, if a child trys to run accross the road it used to be smacked. Are we in danger of producing a nation of unruly dogs as well as uncontrollable children, there is nothing wrong with fear, it is the way we learn

I do however think these collars should not be freely available as the timing is crucial but as as been mentioned its the hand they are in just like any tool,a horse whip in the wrong hands could be as bad.

Aguy i used to know trained his gundogs with a shock collar, before he got this he hit them over the head with the gun barrel!!!!!! Nuf said

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Got 2 dogs here, not once have i ever used fear tactics on em, no need, ive also brought up 2 children on my own same applies with them, the day ever come my dogs fear me i;ll plat cacky

keith

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Very eliquantly put Keith :lol: you have such a lovely way with words

Twice in these posts I have read that if a shock collar had not been used the dogs in question would have been put to sleep which concerns me.  Could it not be that there is a deeper problem with the dogs concerned that could have been inherited.  The use of the shock collar it seems solves the present problem but what about the problem of the dog breeding on these inherited traits. 
Jenny

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

The reason i would have had Tess PTS if i couldn't stop her from going deaf and running off hunting was for the following reasons.

1/ I wouldn't beable to live with myself if Tess had run across a road and causing a fatal road accident.

2/ i believe all whippets should be able to do what they were bred to do, Run. I know that alot of members on this site can never let there dogs off there lead in fear they would never return. Well IMO this is unacceptable and they should be prossecuted for cruelty.

I got Tess at 8 months old so i couldn't train her at an early age, Beleive me i tried everything with Tess before i bought the electric collar.

As for Tess having inherited problems, If you consider the drive to hunt and work an inherited problem then all of my dogs are sufferers of that problem. It's just my job to channel there working instinct and harness it to how i want them to work for me.

My dogs are working dogs and when i'm out with them they represent me, If they are not doing what they are told then that looks bad on me. Thats why it's so important to me that my dogs behave impeccably whilst out in the field. I find it totally unacceptable to read on this forum about dogs dissapearing for 20 minutes and the owners doing nothing about it

i beleive i've acted in the best interest for Tess and if anyone would like to argue with that fact they are welcome to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

What?? I'm sure a dog would rather go for long lead walks than be dead, I would not even contemplate putting one of my dogs to sleep because it couldn't free run, I would either lead walk it or take it to a safe place to run,as I am sure the people on here who do this agree, they are being responsible owners so how should they be prosectucted for cruelty :unsure:

A working dog is not born with the instinct recall it is born with the instinct to hunt and sometimes no amount of training is going to change that if a dog has it's sights set on something, therefor it becomes a pet.

A working dog is not a commodity, it is not essential in this day and age for a dog to hunt or go.

BTW I have no oppinion about these collars as I have not used one and probably never will, I only have an oppinion on putting an healthy dog to sleep because it doesn't do :thumbsup:

 

[Denis Carthy]

MattieThe one I saw the dog ended up being pts because of the way the e collar was used, and yes, she knew the theory of the e collar, you and Denis have taught me well but she didn't practice it, she would panic and then turn it up until the dog did scream on quite a lot of occasions. It got to the stage were she wouldn't have it on her dog when I was there.ie

Denis

Again conspicuously, you have failed to support anything at all, KC and the rest have been making up stories for 10 years, if anything like that happened it would hit the headlines on TV, KC would have it up in lights.

OK, I will give you a chance to substantiate it, simple enough. Can you name the vets so this can be checked out ? – such a brash categorical statement must be substantiated or dismissed as non – factual, so please give the name of the veterinary practice where you saw this and I will check it out, either that or people should dismiss your claim as being totally unsupported.

The thing is, everyone has heard all that nonsense and make believe before, over and over gain and when DEFRA told them to put their cases forwards for examination they/you people could not put ONE single thing to them, not studies [KC lie about that, there are no studies], So, quite simple, support your claim with evidence, a vet anything, which can be checked, good grief KC would have in neon iin Paccadily circus, they would love a real case that - so people should dismiss your claim as being totally unsupported until you do otherwise.

 

[Denis Carthy]

MattieI couldn't reply Denis because I haven't been able to get on this board since I posted that day and now I can't find my post.

Denis

I have found one of yours, I have found very, very disturbing posts of yours, please read the link and explain what happened to this man and his dog and your part in it, I do substantiate things.

http://www.freewebs.com/apdtoscarstragedy/

 

[Mattie]

You can be a very naughty boy at times Denis but those that you put these sites up for know that we have finally worried you enough to try and destroy us in this manner. Sorry Denis it won't work because I am not a trainer or behaviourist, just an ordinary dog owner.

I will take it as a comliment that you have bothered to take the time to put a site up like this which includes me.

 

[Denis Carthy]

MattieYou can be a very naughty boy at times Denis but those that you put these sites up for know that we have finally worried you enough to try and destroy us in this manner.

Denis

“Destroy ‘us’"

To late, I will expose all of you -

You and quite a few have come from Gill Whites taking the lead site site, your common tactics are to disrupt posts by taking genuine people off the topic by making totally unsupported statements, which in turn changes the subject into an argument type post and all e-collar info and discussion is lost, that is your motive and some others posting on this topic, it’s called a troll gang. I

I ask genuine posters who are interested in this topic to ignore anti-e-collar posters, they are doing it quite deliberate, they are organised, Mattie is another from Gill Whites site, she posts there as Em, the person who asked for a troll group isKita, below is her post getting a troll gang together –

From taking the lead site where Mattie, a freind of Gill Whites, posts as Em

Behaviour and training thread.

www.takingthelead.co.uk

Shock Collars discussion on a sighthound forum (Help!)

kita« on: June 14, 2007, 11:38:26 AM »

Not sure where to put this!

Could do with some help on another forum, they are having a discussion about shock collars. I have said a couple of things but the thing is they are a board with mostly lurchers and whippets. Many of the people work their dogs (lamping etc.).

As sighthounds are not really my field (I prefer the large guarding breeds!) I am a bit out of my depth but I am appalled by the fact that some of the members are now seriously considering trying these collars as a way of getting a recall.

Maybe someone else with more experience of whippets etc. could add something?

This is the forum/question:

http://www.k9community.co.uk/forums/index....opic=33538&st=0

 

[Denis Carthy]

MattieI will take it as a compliment that you have bothered to take the time to put a site up like this which includes me.

Denis

I am asking you again to answer my question what did you do next to Antony and his dog? I do substantiate things.

In his next post after the one below, tell people here what you did!!

http://www.freewebs.com/apdtoscarstragedy/

 

[Denis Carthy]

Jayp

I really do think the present training philosophy of ignore bad behavior and reward good causes big problems.....

Denis

Interesting post Jayp, I'll get back and comment on it tommorow, bit tired now.

Best ignore the deliberate troll gang which Kita brought over from takingthelead - the wisla was lucky to get out of that situation alive - that positive commercial stuff is getting dogs killed all over the UK.

 

[Denis Carthy]

Kita - June 13 2007, 04:12 PM

I do not understand why she would use the collars for sheep chasers.

Denis

Of course you don’t, you know nothing at all about e-collars.

On the site called takingthelead.co.uk

Kita wrote « on: June 14, 2007, 11:38:26 AM »

As sighthounds are not really my field (I prefer the large guarding breeds!) I am a bit out of my depth

Denis

So, you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about e-collars, you are out of your depth with sighthounds – so, what are doing posting on this topic as you have no knowledge of anything being written on here?

 

[Lou_Castle]

Earlier I wrote,

If you and the dog can get in, the dog can get out. If there's a gate, the dog can get out when someone else opens it.

That depends on were you are and who has access, many dog owner pay to use an enclosed area to let their dogs run free, they are the only ones allowed in at that time so nobody should be opening the gate.

Yes, in that situation, which is quite limited, "nobody should be opening the gate. But it can still happen. And when it does if a dog does not have a good recall he's gone.

You can get an escape proof harness and there has been no case of a dog getting out of one of these. 

And if they're not adjusted properly the dog can escape from them.

None of these things obviate the need for a good recall in the face of distractions.

I didn't say that the dog was in charge Lou

When did I say that you said that?

A dog doesn't have any choice over his handler using the e collar, many owners don't use these collars as you do.

They should. Many people don't train as you do either.

The one I saw the dog ended up being pts because of the way the e collar was used 

I’m gonna have to go with Denis on this one. I'm having a hard time believing that this dogs was PTS. Is there some reason that you haven't responded to his request for the name of the vet's office where this happened?

 

[Seraphina]

For those people who do not know much about Sighthounds; they are notoriously difficult to train for recall. They are also very fast, and once in hot persuit of something, totally oblivious to anything like traffic. Basically, when they take off, they are 100 yards from you even before you manage to open your mouth to call them back. :sweating: Saying that i have had some well trained afghans (4), Borzois ( 8 ) and half a dozen of Whippets - that is over the past 40 plus years. To get sighthounds really relieble you need to start working with them as soon as possible. Those I bred myself, or got at 8 weeks were all very good. However one Borzoi and Whippet I got at about 16 weeks were lot of hard work. Not everybody has fenced area, where dogs can be safely exercised, within reasonable distance. I do not belive you can give sighthound enough exercise by leash walking . They only get more and more fustrated. If for some reason we do not get out for few days, when we finally get out my girls go absolutely mental, and although they do come to me, we go to the part of our park where there is nobody else there, to make sure they do not knock somebody over. :b Only after they race several times around we go to mix with people and other dogs.

I would not want to live with a dog that would run away from me. I would not want to have the responsibilty of such a dog. I would not want to go for walks being terrified that the dog will run off, get hurt/killed, or cause injury or death of somebody else. I also would not want to have a dog that would have to be confined to my garden all its life. If I ever get a dog that just would not be trained with those methods I used so far, I would certainly try the e-collar. If that failed, and if the dog was a burden, i would consider to have it PTS.

I wonder how many of the dogs whose training failed had some inbred character problems, mabe exacerbated by inappropriate traing, but nevertherless were very difficult dogs to start with?

 

[Mattie]

Denis“Destroy ‘us’"

To late, I will expose all of you -

Expose all for what, if you look you will see I have been a member here for some time unlike you who came on here just for this thread. :lol:

DenisI am asking you again to answer my question what did you do next to Antony and his dog? I do substantiate things.

In his next post after the one below, tell people here what you did!!

Oh dear!! you are getting really boring now Denis, how many times have I told you that Antony didn't contact the trainer I recommened to him and even if he did, she couldn't have helped him because she was ill. Please don't ask this again, I am so bored saying it over and over again. :cheers:

QUOTE(Mattie @ Jun 17 2007, 02:25 PM)You can get an escape proof harness and there has been no case of a dog getting out of one of these. 

And if they're not adjusted properly the dog can escape from them.

None of these things obviate the need for a good recall in the face of distractions.

Not true Lou, these harnesses are made to measure and it takes time for owners to adjust them properly as it does for most harnesses, I will repeat what I said, there has been no known dog that has got out of one of these harnesses and add, whether adjusted properly or not. :cheers:

QUOTE(Mattie @ Jun 17 2007, 02:25 PM)The one I saw the dog ended up being pts because of the way the e collar was used 

I’m gonna have to go with Denis on this one. I'm having a hard time believing that this dogs was PTS. Is there some reason that you haven't responded to his request for the name of the vet's office where this happened?

Check back to my original post on this thread, this dog was pts by the Army after it put one of their trainers in hospital.

You both keep asking me the same questions over and over again but always get the same answer, it really is getting boring now but I continue to answer these questions because you are both trying to belittle others and are both using bullying tactics instead of just discussion. If you don't like what is written, you challenge it instead of trying to discuss it. This is one of the main reasons why people don't take what you say about e collars seriously. If you want people to be educated with these collars stop challenging them and discuss instead.

For those people who do not know much about Sighthounds; they are notoriously difficult to train for recall.

Any breed of dog is difficult to train a recall if you don't take into account what they were bred for. JRTs have a reputation for being untrainable by trainers who don't know how to train using a dog's natural instincts but a well trained JRT is a joy to see just like any other breed of dog.

Sighthounds can be trained a good recall, but you do need to take into account what they were bred to do. You can't train a Sighthound the same as a Gun dog breed or a Collie, or a Terrier.

 

[Lou_Castle]

For those people who do not know much about Sighthounds;  they are notoriously difficult to train for recall. 

I was told that they (especially dogs that had been raced) were impossible to train to recall. Here's the reasoning I was given; on the track they run in a circle ending up where they started and their "prey" has disappeared. Then the handlers just call them over, put them on leashes and kennel them. But when they chase prey off the track it doesn't go in a circle. Actually prey in the wild almost always goes in a circle but in inhabited areas they can't, due to the environment. But when they chase prey in inhabited areas and it finally eludes them (or they catch it) they're in a different place than where they started. And since they're sighthounds they can't use their sense of smell to get home. As an aside, I think that sighthounds have a plenty good enough sense of smell to find their way home.

Yet when one was brought to one of my seminars, I had no trouble in teaching him the recall. He learned it just as does any other dog. He was recalling off prey in a couple of days after his owner continued the training. Over the next few years the owner tested the training by deliberately allowing the dog to chase prey, usually rabbits, and then recalling him away from it. ONCE he had to tap the button for an instant to remind the dog that he had to obey.

To get sighthounds really relieble you need to start working with them as soon as possible.  Those I bred myself, or got at 8 weeks were all very good.  However  one Borzoi and Whippet I got at about 16 weeks were lot of hard work. 

This is great advice. Working with puppies give the best results in the long term. But many people get these dogs as adults and don't have the opportunity to lay that foundation. Since that first dog I've done several greyhounds, a couple of IG's, At least one Saluiki and an Afghan. None of them were any more difficult than any other breed. I've found that breed differences are not so striking as are individual differences.

 

[Lou_Castle]

Begin Part 1 of 2

Earlier Mattie wrote,

You can get an escape proof harness and there has been no case of a dog getting out of one of these. 

And I responded

And if they're not adjusted properly the dog can escape from them. None of these things obviate the need for a good recall in the face of distractions.

Not true Lou, these harnesses are made to measure

If the measurements aren't made properly the dog can escape.

and it takes time for owners to adjust them properly as it does for most harnesses,

And it they're not adjusted properly the dog can escape.

  I will repeat what I said, there has been no known dog that has got out of one of these harnesses and add, whether adjusted properly or not.

I think that logically this is an impossible statement to make. If this were to happen it's not going to make headlines in all the papers and the company, that bases its reputation on their harnesses being escape-proof, aren't going to publish it either.

I've seen crates that manufacturers sell as "escape-proof." It's just a matter of the right dog coming along and proving that it's not. I know of a couple of dogs that have escaped from them, yet they still make the claim.

But even if it was true it STILL doesn't cancel the need for a recall. Leashes still break and they still get pulled out of owner's hands. You can do all sorts of things to make it less likely, but it's still going to happen. Humans are, after all fallible. Management, and that's all this is, always breaks down.

Earlier Mattie wrote,

The one I saw the dog ended up being pts because of the way the e collar was used 

And I responded.

I’m gonna have to go with Denis on this one. I'm having a hard time believing that this dogs was PTS. Is there some reason that you haven't responded to his request for the name of the vet's office where this happened?

Check back to my original post on this thread, this dog was pts by the Army after it put one of their trainers in hospital. 

You could supply the name of the handler that he bit and the vet that did the euthanasia and contact information for both.

I think it's logically impossible to put the blame for this on the Ecollar. It's not unheard of for dogs in training for this type of work to bite their handlers. Usually it's from rough handling or too severe a correction. Many breeders do not think that this is a bad thing so they don't breed it out. Others do.

Were you present when this bite occurred? Can you tell us exactly what was going on just before it occurred?

One can't logically draw a cause-effect relationship between two things just because they exist together in the world. The dog probably ate grass sometime in his life. Going by the same logic, once could say that eating grass led to this dog being PTS.

You both keep asking me the same questions over and over again but always get the same answer

Mattie expect that if you bring up the same old stories again and again, you'll get the same questions over and over. If you don't want to get the questions don't bring up the stories. This one is unbelievable anyway.

it really is getting boring now

I agree. You have yet to bring up anything original in this discussion, no matter what forum it's on.

End Part 1 of 2

 

[Lou_Castle]

Part 2 of 2

but I continue to answer these questions because you are both trying to belittle others and are both using bullying tactics instead of just discussion. 

If would seem to me that if we were "both" trying to belittle others (which is not true) then you wouldn't want to answer the questions. Lol.

But in any case, it's foolish of you to lump Denis and I together. We're not the same and we don't do the same things.

No one is being bullied. And if they are, you're doing just as much of it as I am.

If you don't like what is written, you challenge it instead of trying to discuss it. 

Apparently you're one of those people who think that anytime that someone expresses an opinion that's contrary to yours that it's a challenge and not a discussion. I think you're wrong.

You've made a HIGHLY inflammatory statement that because a dog had an Ecollar improperly used on him that he bit someone and was PTS. You blame this on the Ecollar. It's not logical or very believable and so on this one point you HAVE been challenged to give supporting information for it.

This is one of the main reasons why people don't take what you say about e collars seriously. 

Any facts to back this up? It's quite challenging, the very thing that you're accusing us of. In reality quite a few people are getting information about Ecollars from this thread, contrary to your statement.

Any breed of dog is difficult to train a recall if you don't take into account what they were bred for.  JRTs have a reputation for being untrainable by trainers who don't know how to train using a dog's natural instincts but a well trained JRT is a joy to see just like any other breed of dog.

I've used the same technique for training the recall for all breeds. I make adjustments only for how the individual is responding. Virtually every animal on the planet is motivated the same way. They avoid discomfort and seek comfort. I show them how to achieve this.

Sighthounds can be trained a good recall, but you do need to take into account what they were bred to do.    You can't train a Sighthound the same as a Gun dog breed or a Collie, or a Terrier.

I've done it many times. Your statement is too absolute to be true, especially since my personal experience has shown it not to be so. It may be that this is the case with your methods, it's not the case with mine.

 

[~JO~]

My god you two!!!!!!! (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

It is interesting to read both your opinions but don't bring your personal differences to this board....

 

[hely]

My god you two!!!!!!!  (w00t)   (w00t)   (w00t)
It is interesting to read both your opinions but don't bring your personal differences to this board....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

just what i was thinking...very interesting to read...but seems you two are trying to score points against each other

take a chill pill.......and just except that you dont think in the same way :thumbsup:

 

[mally]

What?? I'm sure a dog would rather go for long lead walks than be dead, I would not even contemplate putting one of my dogs to sleep because it couldn't free run, I would either lead walk it or take it to a safe place to run,as I am sure the people on here who do this agree, they are being responsible owners so how should they be prosectucted for cruelty :unsure:

A working dog is not born with the instinct recall it is born with the instinct to hunt and sometimes no amount of training is going to change that if a dog has it's sights set on something, therefor it becomes a pet.

A working dog is not a commodity, it is not essential in this day and age for a dog to hunt or go.

BTW I have no oppinion about these collars as I have not used one and probably never will, I only have an oppinion on putting an healthy dog to sleep because it doesn't do :thumbsup:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

SO YOU WOULD ALLOW A DOG TO SUFFER ON THE END OF A LEAD FOR THE REST OF IT'S LIFE??NEVER FEELING THE WIND IN IT'S FACE

IT IS ESSENTIAL FOR MY DOG TO WORK AND THATS WHY I TRAIN THEM TO WORK Do you have a dog and bark yourself??

During the winter months my dogs are out 3-4 days a week ferreting, thats why i have them, and it is paramount that they obey my commands at all times whilst out in the fields. However i'm not hard on my dogs. They know what is expected of them. Tess is now 100% off lead :thumbsup:

However if i hadn't been able to cure her running off i would never have rehomed her to a life on a lead and never being able to run free. IMO it's cruel never to allow a whippet to run free and feel the wind in it's face, they enjoy to run and stretch. It would send her mad to be confined to a lead.

It's so easy for people who don't know me to say i'm cruel in saying what i've said.

But i would never ever forgive myself if one of my dogs caused a fatal road accident by running over a road.

As for the people who do know me personally,i'm sure they will agree that my dogs are trained to a very high standard, they need to be for me to do my job efficiently whether that be rabbiting or flushing young pheasants back to the woods stopping them from straying.

They will also tell you that my dogs are my life i get alot of pleasure from seeing them work and doing what i've trained them to do.

Very few dogs will lead a more active life than mine do

If you still think that's cruel then i'm sorry you feel that way