Electric Shock Collars

[Seraphina]

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And since they're sighthounds they can't use their sense of smell to get home.  As an aside, I think that sighthounds have a plenty good enough sense of smell to find their way home. 
Yet when one was brought to one of my seminars, I had no trouble in teaching him the recall. 

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I do agree, it is deffinitely NOT true that sighthounds have no sense of smell. They may have not as good sense of smell as GSD, but neither do most other breeds. Try to put a dog snack in you pocket, without them seeing you and see how fast they notice

It is only in English speaking countries that they are called sight hounds, in other languages the term used for this goup of dogs means "fast hounds". On the couple of occassions that my, not so perfectly trained, dog took off they alwyas came came back to the same spot, eventually.

To get sighthounds really relieble you need to start working with them as soon as possible.  Those I bred myself, or got at 8 weeks were all very good.  However  one Borzoi and Whippet I got at about 16 weeks were lot of hard work. 

This is great advice.  Working with puppies give the best results in the long term.  But many people get these dogs as adults and don't have the opportunity to lay that foundation.  Since that first dog I've done several greyhounds, a couple of IG's, At least one Saluiki and an Afghan.  None of them were any more difficult than any other breed.

I once tried to take my baby Borzoi (3 months old) to obedience classes. At first the trainer did not want us there because "Borzois are stupid and cannot be trained" then she told me she does not want any pups before they are 6 months. I insisted, and my boy worked perfectly. In the class of about 20, mainly GSD, some dobes and handful of other breeds, all 6 months plus, he was the first to walk around without pulling and to sit without having to be pushed down. However, after half an hour of walking in circle and and having to sit every few meters he got sick of it and just rolled over on his back :b I told that instructor, i think that is enough for us for his first time, and I just take him home. She replied "Good, I told you they are stupid and cannot be trained, do not come back".

I've found that breed differences are not so striking as are individual differences.

The difference is the speed at which the sighthound will disapear over the horizon

You have to be very fast off the mark to shout the recall command, or they are out of hearing range.

But I do agree, whatever dog you try to train you have to play it by ear. There are no magic buttons to push to get the some preprogrammed response.

 

[Lou_Castle]

The difference is the speed at which the sighthound will disapear over the horizon  You have to be very fast off the mark to shout the recall command, or they are out of hearing range.

I've developed a protocol that allows people to use the Ecollar to stop undesired game chasing. It has the dog doing the work and not chasing, therefore no recall is needed. But it's not for people who occasionally want their dogs to chase game.

http://loucastle.com/critter.htm

 

[Brenda]

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Shockcollars/

Please sign this!!

 

[Denis Carthy]

Cranks Petitions Edition

I will admit that about 200 more people want to ban e-collars than people who want to award child benefits for cats, and three times more people want to ban e-collars than people who want to licence sales of Elephants in pet shops.

To be honest there is more chance of the prime minister standing on his head and juggling ice cream than any ban on e-collars, also, Brenda, you were banned from Champdogs for putting the link online, the people there are against any ban on e-collars. This petition along with some others are what are known as ‘crank level’ petitions and needless to say started by a commercial competitor of e-collars who has failed to declare her commercial interest, now I have done that for her.

Cranks Petitions

Figures correct last time I looked.

Replace the national anthem with 'Gold' by Spandau Ballet. Sigs: 6,783

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/goldanthem/

Prime minister to stand on his head and juggle ice-cream. Sigs: 4,861

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/juggle/

TEN YEAR Campaign result- Ban e-collars Signs: 1,833

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Shockcollars/

Award child benefit for cats Sigs:1,712

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/lovelycats/

Allow the sale of elephants in pet shops in the UK. Sigs: 545

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Elephantsforpets/

 

[hely]

lol @ those petitions (w00t)

 

[Denis Carthy]

Brenda Today, 07:42 AM

Denis

I forgot, you are another from Gill Whites taking the lead site, another e-collar commercial competitor. You came here because Kita asked for a spam attack on this site, which is why this post has been disrupted.

It seems you people have not learned the lessons of Champdogs, which was closed down, now you have to give your name address and photo to join champdogs, neither have you learned anything from the very recent closure of Doglistener who also spam attacked sites……

Doglistener

http://ccgi.doglistener.co.uk/cgi-bin/DGLforum/YaBB.pl

Gill Whites taking the lead site

Posted on: http://www.ttlntl.co.uk/

Shock Collars discussion on a sighthound forum (Help!)

Kita « on: June 14, 2007, 11:38:26 AM »

Not sure where to put this! Could do with some help on another forum, they are having a discussion about shock collars. I have said a couple of things but the thing is they are a board with mostly lurchers and whippets. Many of the people work their dogs (lamping etc.).

As sighthounds are not really my field (I prefer the large guarding breeds!) I am a bit out of my depth but I am appalled by the fact that some of the members are now seriously considering trying these collars as a way of getting a recall.

Maybe someone else with more experience of whippets etc. could add something?

This is the forum/question:

http://www.k9community.co.uk/forums/index....opic=33538&st=0

Sue

Brenda « Reply #2 on: Today at 08:34:59 AM »

Oh dear I see that he whose name I wont mention on here is on that forum and another who will remain nameless. I will try to get the petition mentioned on it tho'. Well I have put the link on for this petition but I bet I get slated by you know who

 

[TC]

My god you two!!!!!!!  (w00t)   (w00t)   (w00t)
It is interesting to read both your opinions but don't bring your personal differences to this board....

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Just wanted to reiterate this point!

Whilst input from all areas is great, it is a shame that what could be a very well debated thread may well go pearshaped because you cannot keep your differences out of the equation.

If you want to have your own argument, why on earth don't you do it on the board you keep quoting :wacko:

 

[Lou_Castle]

Please sign this!!

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Brenda why do you think that Ecollars should be banned? BTW polls such as this may make you feel good but they're a waste of time. They're similar to those emails that fly around the Internet promising that Bill Gates is going to share his billions with you if only you'll forward the email to ten of your friends.

You should know that recently your legislature was pressured to ban Ecollars and decided that none of the so-called scientific studies they were shown carried any weight. They placed no restrictions of any kind on Ecollars.

 

[quintessence]

I think it's about time you two picked up your ball and went and played in your own garden., but before you go tell us about your whippets.

Jenny

 

[BeeJay]

I think it's about time you two picked up your ball and went and played in your own garden., but before you go tell us about your whippets.
Jenny

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I doubt very much if Uncle Lou has whippets or any sighthounds. Now GSD's that's a different matter. Not much call for whippets in the US police force.

The subject of e collars is always going to polarise peoples opinions. Bit like BARF feeding and neutering and pinch collars does.

 

[Denis Carthy]

QuintessenceI think it's about time you two picked up your ball and went and played in your own garden., but before you go tell us about your whippets.

Denis

As it happens I have taken on three people in total for e-training with Whippet 'types', one was pure the other two were mixed types, lurcher type - I do not discriminate and say no because you have a whippet, this post is about e-collars, I know e-collars and their applications very well indeed and I know of no e-collar which is suitable only for any specific breed of dog.

 

[galty]

The use of a shock collar on a Long bearded wiedo(American type dog)

At the end notice no burn marks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ffIyxiLxc

 

[quintessence]

The use of a shock collar on a Long bearded wiedo(American type dog)
At the end notice no burn marks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ffIyxiLxc

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Ah ..... I understand now having looked at all the other videos on youtube they are for students who haven't quite mastered the art of falling down in the street on Friday nights.

 

[Lou_Castle]

I think it's about time you two picked up your ball and went and played in your own garden.

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I'm not sure which "two" you are referring to because there's quite a few people involved; but if you're a moderator and have this opinion then simply remove the "two" that you think don't belong. If you're not a moderator you're just being rude and making a personal attack which is very common when this topic comes up. I'm sorry that you don't want to face the reality of Ecollars, but they're here to stay.

, but before you go tell us about your whippets.Jenny

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My mother enlisted me into rescuing greyhounds and whippets from race tracks in Cuba in the late 1950's, long before it became politically correct to do so. I shoveled more waste out of kennels, helped to care for more sick animals and saved the lives of more dogs than many vets and most owners with a lifetime of service have. They came in from Cuba by the boatload. We had to go into the dank, dark stinking holds of those ships and carry some of them out, so abused were they. They hadn't been fed or watered and were laying in their own filth for days. Sometimes there were so many of they that they were stacked on atop another, the ones on the bottom dead or dying. Probably some of them dead before they were put into the ship.

We built kennels from scratch, laying concrete and stringing chain link to provide for those animals. We raised money for this by going from door to door begging for help. We spent hours at the grocery store doing the same.

To this day I can't look at a GH or a whippet without flashing back to those days. I love them but can't bear to own one. So please don't try and climb up on some moral high ground because this is a whippet forum and I don't own one. I've probably done more to help the breed than most here. I hadn't thought about those days in years, now it will haunt me for weeks.

I do own GSD's and have for years. I've have already discussed training these kinds of dogs at my seminars .

 

[wild whippies]

Can't help but feel this thread is sailing close to commercial advertising and is now getting 'personal'.

I feel this debate has been exhausted and although there have been worthwhile opinions given from all sides, I don't see how this thread is going anywhere apart from gaining self-promotion from some individuals who feel their methodology in dog training is the best.

My personal opinion is dogs, like humans, are individuals - what methods work for one may fail with another and part of the pleasure and bonding of owning a pet should be having the patience and perseverance to suceed and the insight to seek advice from others when needs be and to implement them oneself so as to learn from the whole experience.

 

[Lou_Castle]

Can't help but feel this thread is sailing close to commercial advertising and is now getting 'personal'.

I don't see any "commercial advertising" at all but it sure is getting personal. Those people who oppose the use of Ecollars rarely are able to keep their cool when the topic comes up. Granted, for many it is an emotional topic but still, there's no excuse for the kind of personal attacks and rude comments that we've seen here. That's one way that people who oppose their use shut these conversations down so the information does not get to those who want it.

I don't see how this thread is going anywhere apart from gaining self-promotion from some individuals who feel their methodology in dog training is the best.

Who's doing that?

My personal opinion is dogs, like humans, are individuals - what methods work for one may fail with another

I've heard this many times before but I've put Ecollars on over 2,000 dogs and not had it fail to get the desired results once. I've had one specific protocol, the Crittering protocol, not work on one dog but that's because he daily practiced the wrong thing and his owner refused to stop it. Nothing anyone could do would stop that dog's crittering behavior with daily doses of self-reward. .

and part of the pleasure and bonding of owning a pet should be having the patience and perseverance to suceed and the insight to seek advice from others when needs be and to implement them oneself so as to learn from the whole experience.

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That's just what these posts are doing, giving others the "advice" about Ecollars that they're seeking so they can "implement" it for themselves.

 

[wild whippies]

Said my bit Lou, I don't have an overwhelming desire to quote everything you say and manipulate it into my point of view and I certainly don't feel the need to justify my comments either. :thumbsup:

 

[Lou_Castle]

Said my bit Lou, I don't have an overwhelming desire to quote everything you say

No need to quote anything I said. But it would have been polite to have answered my questions.

and manipulate it into my point of view

Nothing has been manipulated. If you disagree you're free to show us where that's happened.

and I certainly don't feel the need to justify my comments either.

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I don't recall asking you for any "justification." I did ask a few questions that you've chosen not to respond to. Fine by me.

Quite often in these conversations people write posts such as yours that have nothing to do with the topic and only address people in the conversation. I wonder why people do that but have never gotten a decent response.

But let's get back to the topic, Ecollars.

 

[wild whippies]

ROFLMAO!

 

[Lou_Castle]

ROFLMAO!

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I have no idea as to what you find so humorous. but in any case . . .

There are a couple of stories in this thread about dogs whose lives have been saved by the Ecollar. Here's another one.

Here is a story about a severely fearful aggressive German Shepherd Dog (GSD) that belongs to Jen Mackler, a search and rescue worker in Colorado. Jen was a trainer who used positive training methods exclusively. Please take notice of the steps she had taken before writing to me.

Jen writes:

"Roma is a fear driven dog (unknown history - was a stray, VERY head shy and submissive with people). We have mostly conquered the head-shyness with strangers through positive reinforcement with clickers and treats. I feel I have built her confidence as much as I can at this point (I have had her almost two years). Her major problem as I see it now, is too much prey/protection drive. Within our yard/house she is WAY confident. She has lunged at and tried to bite (got a pantleg!) one person who came to the door. She puts on HUGE displays of aggression at squirrels, dogs and people who walk within 10 yards of our house (this includes lunging, stomping, full hackles, growling/snarling, "kill shaking" toys or *anything* that is nearby). I'm concerned that these aggressive displays will turn into an attack if she accidentally gets out or off leash. She did attack my other dog over a toy, after which she went into daycare once a week and became better socialized with other dogs. Under the right conditions, after she has been introduced properly, she plays perfectly with other dogs and puppies without getting out of control. It's just that the sight of another dog (from the house or a leash) causes a complete snarling, lunging meltdown to where she has occasionally bitten MY leg because it was the closest thing she could get her mouth on."

-Jen

A few months late I met Roma. While I was talking with Jen about the dog, Roma was on leash a few feet away from me. Someone nearby closed, not slammed, just closed a car door. Roma responded by coming up at my face in an all out attempt to bite me! I full expected to get bitten during the next few minutes when I took Roma's leash.

I led her away from the group and spent a few minutes finding her working level. I then let her wander out to the end of the Flexi-leash. I pressed the button and pulled her towards me. After she began to walk towards me on her own, I released the button. This continued for about 20 minutes or so. I then knelt down and Roma climbed into my lap and began licking my face. The group who had been watching know Roma and her history, jokingly accused me of having switched dogs on them when they were not looking.

The next day we went to a park and I worked on the sit and sit at a distance with Roma.

I went home, leaving Jen with instructions to keep working on the recall and sit. A short time later, on one of the online forums that I frequent, I noticed another debate brewing about the use of the Ecollar.

At that time Jen wrote to that forum:

"...after having personally felt the extremely low levels of stimulation necessary to get a response from my very sensitive dog (Roma), I believe this is far more humane than any choke collar. I have tried everything with this dog --standard obedience classes, prong coloars, Halti/Gentle Leaders, clicker training, Tellington Touch and even herbal sedatives. While her basic obedience around the house improved significantly with these methods, nothing really addressed her fear based aggression around strangers, cars or other dogs. I've been working with Lou's method now for only a few days and the changes he has described are all true. I have been continually puzzled at how or why this method has improved her confidence in fearful or emotionally charged situations. I can't explain it, but it works...

"I should also say that in addition to being a SAR dog handler in my free time, I'm a veterinary student and am simultaneously working on a PhD. in Neurobiology. If I were AT ALL concerned about negative neurological or behavioral consequences of Lou's methods, or Ecollars, I would not use it on my own dog. Be aware that not all Ecollars are alike and not all Ecollar trainers are the same. In my case, with a dog prone to bite and chase cars, this is the safest thing I could be doing for her."

-Jen

About ten days later Jen wrote to me with an update:

"...Roma is doing spectacularly. By the way, she was very friendly to a "stranger" who came to the door at home while she was wearing her Ecollar. James (Jen's husband) called her back from the door with the "here" command, I let the person in, Roma was released and greeted the stranger in a very friendly manner - no growling or snapping, she sniffed and then sat down...Remarkable, she seems to completely forget about being aggressive when she's wearing the collar."

About a week later I received another email:

Jen wrote: Hi Lou, Roma is doing SUPER. I've taken her to the dog park for the last two weekends and she was under superb control the whole time. I had to stop bringing her a year ago when she began the dog aggression-losing her mind barking-growling thing. Now, with Mr. Ecollar, she is an angel. People were oohing and ahhing at her obedience and she had a great time - let people pet her and everything. So, Roma has a new life!

Please read that last sentence again: "Roma has a new life!"

My theory on why this method works to give dogs confidence is that the dog is forced by an unseen force, the Ecollar, to stay in one place. The penalty for going into fight or flight as Roma was doing, is the discomfort of the stimulation. Please note that I'm still working at the level where the dog first feels the stimulation. The dog wants to avoid that penalty and as such, holds her position. A child rides by on a bike and where the dog used to chase and try to bite that child, she is forced to hold her sit. She is doing the work. She is not being restrained by a leash. Lo and behold, nothing bad happens to the dog.

A few minutes later some children playing nearby start screaming and laughing. Roma used to run in abject terror when this occurred, but now the consequences of a stimulation make her do the work and she holds her position. Again, nothing bad happens to the dog.

A few minutes later a car passes by. This used to terrify Roma who would run until she ran out of strength. Now, she holds her position and she doesn't die!!

Roma has learned that not going into fight or flight brings pleasant consequences, that is, nothing bad happens to her.

The last time I spoke to Jen, she told me that she still brings Roma out to SAR training. Roma is not a SAR dog but Jen likes to socialize her. Roma has become a pest. She runs from person to person, nuzzling their hands, asking to be petted.