Electric Shock Collars

[wild whippies]

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What I find humorous Lou is the link on your signature to your website where you state

If your looking to buy an Ecollar, I'm both a dealer for both Dogtra and Tri-Tronics brands.

Now I'm sorry but as a 'dealer' for these 2 companies, I find it difficult to believe your views can be impartial.

If you didn't have that link as your signature I'd of probably read your posts with interest, shame really.

 

[BeeJay]

Jac I couldn't agree more with you. I first read Lou's endorsements of e collars must be 10+ years ago.

What interests me is that it seems that the 'macho' trainers often use such methods whereas others choose a different method. Seems to me that the training method of choice is more about the humans than the dogs.

Over 2,000 dogs Lou. As a matter of interest have you ever NOT used them to train a dog? If so how many dogs have you trained without needing to use one?

 

[Lou_Castle]

What I find humorous Lou is the link on your signature to your website where you state

If your looking to buy an Ecollar, I'm both a dealer for both Dogtra and Tri-Tronics brands.

I didn't realize that it was humorous for me to sell Ecollars. It's certainly never been a secret.

Now I'm sorry but as a 'dealer' for these 2 companies, I find it difficult to believe your views can be impartial.

I've been using and advocating Ecollars for nearly 20 years. I've been selling them for only a few. I wrote virtually the same posts now as before I became a dealer. My discounts are quite large in order to get Ecollars into the hands of as many people as possible. In fact, over the years that I've been a dealer I've only made a small profit in two of the approximately 5 years. It certainly doesn't support me, in fact, if you count my time, it's a very large loss for me. I'm a retired police officer with a very good retirement plan.

I don't sell Ecollars in the UK, where this list is based and where the overwhelming majority of its poster are from. So there's no commercial interest in my posting, no matter what you'd like to think.

If you didn't have that link as your signature I'd of probably read your posts with interest, shame really.

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Yes it is a shame. The loss is yours and anyone's who thinks as you do. Many people who post against Ecollars are commercial dog trainers using so-called all positive methods whose livelihoods are threatened by Ecollars and the success they give to people who use them. Yet I don't see you ignoring their posts because of their "commercial interests" or their "lack of impartiality. Seems kinda hypocritical to me.

 

[wild whippies]

Lou your being a little presumptious here, I haven't said whether I am for or against Ecollars, like I said I was reading what was being posted with interest and my view remains impartial at this moment in time.

Oh and the reason I haven't mentioned anyone elses postings is because they haven't questioned me.

If you have no interest in UK sales then you won't have an issue about removing your link. It's not like people need to view it anyway as you've already introduced yourself and your background experience to this thread. I personally feel it would give your posts more credability.

 

[Lou_Castle]

Jac I couldn't agree more with you.  I first read Lou's endorsements of e collars  must be 10+ years ago. 

Thanks BeeJay. I've only been an Ecollar dealer for about 5 years. What was my motivation for writing about them then? Hmm, could it be that I happen to think that they're excellent tools and make training a dog much easier? Lol.

What interests me is that it seems that the 'macho' trainers often use such methods whereas others choose a different method. 

What makes someone a "macho" trainer? And what makes someone NOT a "macho" trainer? Never heard this before. Interesting concept, especially since most of my clients are women.

Seems to me that the training method of choice is more about the humans than the dogs.

Another interesting comment. How can a training tool be about the humans and not the dogs?

Over 2,000 dogs Lou. 

Yep.

As a matter of interest have you ever NOT used them to train a dog? 

Many times.

If so how many dogs have you trained without needing to use one?

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I've never "needed" to use an Ecollar. I use them because they give such fast results humanely. Dogs have a relatively short life span. The faster they're trained the better. "Results achieved humanely."

But why are you making this conversation about me when it should be about Ecollars? What difference does it make how many dogs I've trained w/o using an Ecollar or even if I've ever done so? This is something that those who oppose Ecollars frequently do, side track these conversations by making them about people, rather than about the tool.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Well really after working with dogs (racing, show and pet dogs) for over 20 years I can honestly say I have never seen the need of a shock collar ..........and though this as a whole has been a balanced discussion, I'm still positive I'll never use one ........Dogs are all individuals as we know, so what works for one dog wouldn't necessarily work for another.......I am a believer in getting a dog to want to work with you, but if that doesn't work then I use body language, eye contact etc ....... ie pack behaviour to persuade them ........ But this is just my personal opinion :thumbsup:

 

[Denis Carthy]

BeeJay – What interests me is that it seems that the 'macho' trainers often use such methods whereas others choose a different method.

Denis

They cannot ‘seem’ anything at all you as you have no knowledge of them or who uses them. The facts are they used on a global basis by advanced trainers at all levels including pet owners, pet owners who are now familiar with e-collars can teach a new to dogs pet owner a reliable recall for free, when others who scam pet owners out of hundreds of £££s and the dog is not better once the money has gone than before –

Pet owners have taken things into their own hands, they are no longer listening and paying people who try to convince them it takes 3 years of paying a trainer to get a recall when pet owners can do it themselves and have a free running dog with distractions and a reliable recall in a couple of days – but you don’t know which is best, you use the old methods and you’re stuck with the failings of them - the old methods are on their way out, assigned to history which is their place.

Frankly I find your'macho' comments very degrading to women in general, ceratainly the women I knw and come accross are open to learning, you seem to imply women will not learn e-collars, thats not true at all, they love e-collars.

Convince this 'non macho' lady, she lost faith in ‘bunkum’ 'reward' so called training.

16th Feb 2005

Dear Sir/Madam, Dennis,

Dennis please pass this to that committee when you write to them.

 

I have two large dogs, a Collie Cross German Shepherd Bitch and a pedigree German shepherd Dog. The larger male my husband and I rescued as a puppy as the man that bought him had no garden and could not cope with him. We attended Dog Training Classes based on I was told was a reward system, with both dogs once a week for around 8 to 10 weeks, and although the dogs performed well while there I found the classes of no assistance when walking the dogs even though in the home they proved useful.

 

Before that I had fears with my female, she growled a bit when people came into our house, I went to my vet with her and he suggested I either put her to sleep or go to Roger Mugford, I would never put my dogs down and called Roger Mugford, he wanted a couple of hundred pounds just to see him. Nothing else was offered but to look at my dog, that was several years ago and I did not go, who could and after my new experience with my collar what service could he offer?

 

Both my dogs have always had to remain on the lead as they are obviously big dogs and the bitch was particularly dog aggressive, this was the end result of what is called reward training. She would attack other dogs unprovoked if off the lead. I became scared to walk her, even though in the home and having two young children she was no problem and a loveable family pet. We have kept her on a lead for all of her eight years and the new dog was on a lead until we discovered the miracle of the E Collar.

 

While out walking our dogs or should I say being dragged kicking and screaming by our dogs, my husband and I met a young guy with the most beautiful, contented and immaculately behaved Viarrama. It was off lead and running around with out a care in the world. We commented on how we envied him the freedom of his dog being off lead. Then get yourself an E Collar he enthused you will never look back! When we returned home we looked on the internet and found the company he was praising Dogtra. We researched the subject and after much thought we ordered one for our dogs.

 

The guy we dealt with from Dogtra was professional, friendly and informative and recommended training. He refred me to the Dogtra trainer a man called Dennis Carthy, he was principle trainer of (ommited dc) UK then, I now know he has left. He came to assess our dogs and recommend the way to train our dogs with the new collars. He came to our home assessed both the dogs for an afternoon and with his blessing we contacted a local independent trainer, competent with e-collars, to train our dogs with their collars as Dennis said he was cheaper than Dennis would have been travelling from London..

 

Well what can I say; our lives have been transformed after just ONE session which only cost £20, my trainer was truly proffesional and with jusat that ONE lesson BOTH my dogs had a full recall after all those years of suffering on a lead.

My husband and I are elated with the collars, the stress just lifted like a fluffy cloud. Our dogs now go off lead and to see them run and play is a joy which brings tears to my eyes. People constantly stop and comment on how beautiful and contented they are. They come back on demand, the bitch has not once been aggressive with another dog, although she will now go up and sniff she is not a problem. People who once stayed well away from me when out walking now accompany me. I admit I was apprehensive about the collars at first and was held back because of some things I had read

I was told they could work miracles but I never believed it, I do now. I recommended the collar to a friend whose elderly parents no longer walked their dog as they could not cope with his pulling. They too are thrilled with their collar, it too has changed their lives in a positive way.

 

I want to add that from the first phone call to xxxx(dc) after being recommended by another petr owner, I was treated with respect and utmost honesty by , Dennis Carthy and my trainer. I am a pet owner nothing more and I could easily have been bamboozled with fancy talk I did not understand, not one bit of it and not £200 just to look at my dogs either.

 

Sarah xxxx

 

[Lou_Castle]

Lou your being a little presumptious here, I haven't said whether I am for or against Ecollars

Your post is typical of those who oppose them. Why else would you attack me for "not being impartial?" But I've not said anything about which way that you lean. I've made no presumptions. Rather, you've presumed that I have.

like I said I was reading what was being posted with interest and my view remains impartial at this moment in time.

OK.

Oh and the reason I haven't mentioned anyone elses postings is because they haven't questioned me.

You're the one who posted, " ROFLMAO!" when I pointed out that you hadn't answered my simple questions.

If you have no interest in UK sales then you won't have an issue about removing your link.

Sure I do. There are lots of articles there about Ecollars, myths about them, how to choose one, how to use one. I have the link there so people can find that information easily.

It's not like people need to view it anyway as you've already introduced yourself and your background experience to this thread.

You don't get to decide what is and what isn't in my signature. This forum allows it and I think that it helps people get the information about Ecollars that they need to use them properly.

I personally feel it would give your posts more credability.

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I don't feel a need to make my posts more credible to you and I doubt that it would. You've already said that you don't read them yet, you're replying to them in detail. But again we have a post that is typical of those who oppose Ecollars. You're written not one word about their use. Your post is AGAIN all about me. This is just another sidetrack.

 

[wild whippies]

Nah I was just getting ready to reply to Dennis.. :- "

 

[kris]

watch out denis! (w00t)

 

[Tony Taylor]

Lou and Dennis, you guys are sailing very close to what I consider to be commercial advertising, especially considering Lous signature. Whether you like it or not I can decide whether or not you're in breach of forum rules.

I'm also concerned about the personal nature of this thread and Lous posts have got to be some of the most irritating examples of attacking the poster I've ever come across. Surely we don't need to have every sentance quoted and attacked, often out of context and off topic.

Please lets just stick to the facts about ecollars because if there's much more of this personal bickering this thread will close.

Shame as it could be interesting if you didn't have to wade through reams of irrelevant arguement.

 

[BeeJay]

>They cannot ‘seem’ anything at all you as you have no knowledge of them or who uses them.

Actually I have met trainers who use 'e' collars not for 'general' training but to stop stock worrying. I also know trainers who use them to keep their dogs from barking in kennels.

 

[Lou_Castle]

Well really after working with dogs (racing, show and pet dogs) for over 20 years I can honestly say I have never seen the need of a shock collar ..........and though this as a whole has been a balanced discussion, I'm still positive I'll never use one

Fine by me. I have heard this same sort of statement many times.

Once it was from a woman in Northern California named Laura Rathe. She was a SAR dog worker who had trained two dogs with so-called all positive methods and made the same sort of comment. Then she got Charley.

Here's what she says now,

Lou helped me when I needed it most. When I was on the brink of washing out an incredible little dog due to her crittering issues and the fact that when she was on a critter trail, no way could I get her back. I was done with this 9 month old pup that I spent a lot of $$ on.
I talked with Lou at LENGTH and even recorded his words. I still didn't feel comfortable putting an e collar on my dog. I ended up taking her to a fairly local (3 `1/2 hours away) field dog trainer. I watched the trainer work other dogs and decided I would leave Charley there for a week of "boot camp".

When I returned after a week, I spent some quality time with the trainer and my dog. He showed me how to work the dog in a collar and that it was NOT a punishment tool, but a training tool

I do work my dog in an e collar when I feel that it would benefit her. I worked her last year in a collar when our search assignment was bordered by a busy road. I utilized the collar as a long lead. I use the paging button and with the proper training, my dog knows what that means. I use it most always in training

I don't think its a crutch.......but if it is, it is a lifesaving crutch in my opinion

Laura Rathe 295

Notice that her so-called all positive methods weren't working wit THIS dog although they had been successful with the two dogs that she'd trained for SAR before Charley. Laura was smart enough to realize that they weren't going to work with THIS dog and rather than wash the dog out, she called and asked for advice.

Dogs are all individuals as we know, so what works for one dog wouldn't necessarily work for another

I'm pretty sure that others have said that before in this thread, while it may be true for the methods and tools that you choose, I've never come across a dog that didn't respond to the Ecollar.

I am a believer in getting a dog to want to work with you

Me too. I show the pets how to achieve comfort and the working dogs how to achieve drive satisfaction.

but if that doesn't work then I use body language, eye contact etc ....... ie pack behaviour to persuade them ........ But this is just my personal opinion 

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That's great and I'm glad that it works for you. I've always said that if people are happy with their tools and methods and they give the results that they want, that's GREAT. But you'll notice that many people in this thread are NOT getting good results with those methods. It doesn’t make sense for them to keep doing what hasn't been working. For those folks, or for anyone who wants to try the Ecollar I'm here to help them. I have NEVER insisted that anyone stop doing what works for them, although I've had many people claim that I have made such a statement. If you like your results then stick with what's working for you. But if it happens that you're (and this is directed at everyone, not just you) not happy with your results.…

 

[Denis Carthy]

Tony Taylor

Lou and Dennis, you guys are sailing very close to what I consider to be commercial advertising,

Denis

What commercial advertising? there is not one single thing in my posts as regards selling anything, sure you have the power to ban edit or whatever, nothing I can do if you do that, but, to do that on a premise which as no foundation which you have indicated is innapropriate.

Maybe you could correct that and past where there is ANY - even the slightest, indication I am selling anything. Another thing about your post, in the context of things I have pasted on here, you have seen, presumably, that arrangements were made on Gill Whites site to spam/mass troll this post BEFORE I came, it was those posts on her takingthelead site which brought me here, by then, this post was already under a spam attack from that site yet you have not mentioned them.

Are we allowed to know why you have not posted a post direct at the posters who deliberatly came here to disrupt this post?

 

[wild whippies]

What commercial advertising?

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The guy we dealt with from Dogtra was professional, friendly and informative and recommended training. He refred me to the Dogtra trainer a man called Dennis Carthy

Well what can I say; our lives have been transformed after just ONE session which only cost £20, my trainer was truly proffesional and with jusat that ONE lesson BOTH my dogs had a full recall after all those years of suffering on a lead.

I was treated with respect and utmost honesty by , Dennis Carthy and my trainer. I am a pet owner nothing more and I could easily have been bamboozled with fancy talk I did not understand, not one bit of it and not £200 just to look at my dogs either.

Need I go on?

 

[quintessence]

Tony TaylorLou and Dennis, you guys are sailing very close to what I consider to be commercial advertising,

Denis

What commercial advertising? there is not one single thing in my posts as regards selling anything, sure you have the power to ban edit or whatever, nothing I can do if you do that, but, to do that on a premise which as no foundation which you have indicated is innapropriate.

Maybe you could correct that and past where there is ANY - even the slightest, indication I am selling anything.

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The guy we dealt with from Dogtra was professional, friendly and informative and recommended training. He refred me to the Dogtra trainer a man called Dennis Carthy, he was principle trainer of (ommited dc) UK then, I now know he has left. He came to assess our dogs and recommend the way to train our dogs with the new collars. He came to our home assessed both the dogs for an afternoon and with his blessing we contacted a local independent trainer, competent with e-collars, to train our dogs with their collars as Dennis said he was cheaper than Dennis would have been travelling from London..

 

[wild whippies]

Oh and you should read this.

K9 Rules

Specifically this

Users may not argue a Moderators or Administrators decision publicly. Any and all complaints directed at a Moderator must first address the Moderator in question via PM. If the problem can not be resolved, then the Moderator and user must send their positions to an Administrator. The Administrators decision will be final.

I presume you've discussed the rule below with the Administrators of this site?

Advertising goods and services is permissible subject to the agreement of the community Administrators.

 

[Seraphina]

As I said, if I felt the need i would use Ecollar, and I am sure it would achieve what I would want from it. But you know what ythey say: "If it sounds too good to be true..................it probabaly is "

I do not believe in miracles.

 

[Denis Carthy]

Wild WhippetsThe guy we dealt with from Dogtra was professional, friendly and informative and recommended training. He refred me to the Dogtra trainer a man called Dennis Carthy

Denis

Point taken, the letter is dated 2005 - between late 2002 and early 2004 I took people on exclusively for e-collar training part time, the reason was they were trying to ban e-collars, in those days very few people knew anything about modern e-collars I wanted people who had learned them to write to MPs, when Dogtra came I did one week with them as trainer and left

I still occasionally take people on in an emergency and charge if they are satisfied and things improve, thats not commercial.

You might be interested in this:

http://www.freewebs.com/dogtradisclaimer/d...kdisclaimer.htm

 

[Lou_Castle]

Lou and Dennis, you guys are sailing very close to what I consider to be commercial advertising, especially considering Lous signature. Whether you like it or not I can decide whether or not you're in breach of forum rules.

Hi Tony. I was hoping that a moderator/owner would drop in here. My website has about 40,000 words about how to use an Ecollar and a couple of sentences stating that I sell them. I hardly consider that to be a commercial website. . If it was a commercial site people would be able to go to a page where they could click to buy and pay by credit card. But there's nothing like that there. I didn't bring up the fact that I sell them and, as I've pointed out, I don't sell them in the UK, where this list is based

But if you decide that I should remove the link from my signature, of course, I'll have no problem doing so. It's there so that people can find the information in one place and find it easily. I could post each article here but it would quickly fill up space and I'd find myself doing it repeatedly. But if that's what you'd prefer that's fine with me.

I'm also concerned about the personal nature of this thread

Me too.

and Lous posts have got to be some of the most irritating examples of attacking the poster I've ever come across.

Gonna disagree here. You may not like my style of quoting but it allows me to refute what people say line by line. I've personally attacked NO ONE although I've been the victim of that quite a few times.

Surely we don't need to have every sentance quoted and attacked, often out of context and off topic.

NEVER has anything been taken out of context and nothing has been taken "off topic" by me. I've only responded when others have done this. Usually I cite nearly the entire post, so the original context is still there.

Please lets just stick to the facts about ecollars because if there's much more of this personal bickering this thread will close.

I've asked for the personal attacks to stop several times already.

Shame as it could be interesting if you didn't have to wade through reams of irrelevant arguement.

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Again, I agree.