Height Size Standards

[turb065]

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As far as import/exporting goes does this not lead to size/height variations, as withalot of shows i've been to lately the dogs seem to be getting bigger. Is this a result of importation? Or is it a result of evolution. Also as far as breeders go do they breed to sizeor do they breed to champ status. Crispy is small which i like opinions may vary, but was this not the idea of the whippet? As one day i wish to breed from her and hopefully keep the smaller size i believe this is getting harder. Opinions Appreciated

 

[aslan]

with a lot of shows i've been to lately the dogs seem to be getting bigger. Is this a result of importation? Or is it a result of evolution

IMO it's both. But we should as breeders be trying to keep our height to standard. This is difficult when there is an otherwise good but oversized dog doing a lot of winning or imported with lines to die for or imported as a Champion with a high profile in its country of origin that is widely advertised here - and then judges put the dog up and people want to use it.

Or there's my situation - I imported a dog as a puppy (for his lines and his colour), he has grown too tall for my liking but what am I to do - never use him? - (and all that money goes down the tube - I doubt I will ever afford to import again) or give him the chance to see what he can produce? And if no-one else shows any interest in him then it is only up to me to give him the opportunity and I don't have many bitches of my own to put him to so it will be difficult to gauge whether he will produce height in every case or whether he won't.

On the other side of the coin - even when we try very hard you can get thrown a curve ball - I once used a dog that is certainly less than 20inches to my bitch who was 18 1/2 - 3/4 - their backgrounds were full of nicely sized dogs. She had a litter of five; two males, three females. One of the dogs grew to be 22 inches (so I was told by the pet owner - I never measured him myself). I have no idea where that came from. The siblings to the best of my knowledge were all in standard.

 

[liza]

As far as import/exporting goes does this not lead to size/height variations, as withalot of shows i've been to lately the dogs seem to be getting bigger. Is this a result of importation? Or is it a result of evolution. Also as far as breeders go do they breed to sizeor do they breed to champ status. Crispy is small which i like opinions may vary, but was this not the idea of the whippet? As one day i wish to breed from her and hopefully keep the smaller size i believe this is getting harder. Opinions Appreciated

yes size is a problem i have two upto size bitch i got the type i want but i am having problems getting the size down i have tried going to smaller dogs with my other bitch and stil got big i done a f / d mating and still got big some lines do have big my ideal dog is 20 inches and my ideal bitch is 19 inches but its getting the right combination type and size

 

[turb065]

As far as height goes crispy is 18 1/2" which for all acounts i believe is on the small side of the standard but finding a male of similar size and colour (blue, blue parti, silver brindle parti) seems to be a bit of a problem. I had found a male blue at about 19" but as in all situations he was missing his man bits. I'm in no rush to find Crispy a partner/stud as she is only 2yo but its just good to know what is around

 

[aslan]

Just remember that height shouldn't be the ONLY thing you consider when choosing a stud dog. There is a lot more to put on your "I Want" list from a stud dog.

Remember too that because your bitch is a good size shouldn't be the only reason you breed from her. She should be a good representative of the breed and have other qualities that are worth passing on. If Crispy's breeder has some experience under their belt - why not let them guide/advise/help in your decisions?

The size for bitches in the current standard in Australia is 17 1/2 - 18 1/2. Dogs 18 1/2 - 20.

 

[Ridgesetter]

Is the breed really getting bigger? I don't think so. Sure there are some big ones but is there a trend of the breed getting bigger? I doubt it. I've seen 23" dogs but I've also seen 17" bitches but there will always be variables. I'm sure the vast majority of dogs fall into the middle.

I always advise trainee judges to be careful of saying a dog is too tall without measuring. Different colours give different perceptions as does a small dog with a tall handler and vice versa a tall dog with a short handler. I have a dog I consider taller than I would prefer, however, he has a very long neck and appears much taller than he actually is as his head height is above the other males but his wither height isn't that much greater. Brindles appear different to particolours yet can be the same size. I went to look at a potential dog yesterday and thought he was tall but he was 19.5". He is a little leggy so gives the illusion of being taller than he actually is.

Height is ALWAYS discussed in most breeds. Being in 4 breeds and judging many breeds, the subject of height comes up regularly. I was only discussing height in Samoyeds on the weekend with a fellow judge. On my RR list the very same question popped up last week as it does every couple of years with a newer exhibitor feeling the dogs were too tall and all the 'long time' breeders / exhibitors said they felt if anything, the breed height was coming down and under or bottom end of the height standard was an issue. All agreed that you can't single out height alone in making decisions when breeding.

As Lana said, do you discard an otherwise worthy dog because he is a little tall? I wouldn't. Can I tell how tall my puppies will end up? Certainly not. What do you do if your line is producing tall dogs and small bitches? It's something you have to work through.

Having used 3 imported dogs over my girls and seeing what they've produced to other bitches, I don't believe they're responsible for any perceived increase in size.

We are feeding and maintaining dogs in general much better than decades ago so it is to be expected that all dogs will mature quicker and stronger and maybe taller than previous generations.

But I believe that many things are cyclic and that just as easily as some might perceive our dogs are too tall, years from now some might be saying they are too small. :-

Lastly, I have 18.5" bitches and I don't consider them 'small'.

 

[billyboy45]

In the 80's i showed pedigree whippets,and the breed size for bitches was 17 inches,and a dog over 19 would not have been accepted in many rings over here.So going by that,whippets have definately got a hell of a lot bigger.Not that in my eye's it will do a it of harmas it's also strengthened up the breed somewhat.Then as has been said,we are in a world that keeps evolving,and there aint nuttin we can do bout it.

 

[Rachel]

Hi Turbo,

I wonder about this too! in particular with the popular American imports, I know they are the correct size for the UK standard and make very worthy champions, but do they carry genes that throw larger whippets of the American standard size?

Re. breeding consistent size - if only it was as easy as breeding a small one to a large one and getting a medium!! I also have a small whippet bitch and an eye to the future so I'll be interested to see your replies!

Re. size in the showring, I've noticed far more variability in dog whippets than in bitches, and more tolerance of the biggies - often described as 'masculine' when in my eyes they are too tall and beefy and more like small greyhounds than whippets. Just my opinion mind you - shoot me gently!

 

[liza]

do we need to set a new breed standard or stay to the old standard as we are saying whippets are getting bigger in my opinion a dog should be no bigger than 21 inches as any bigger he starts to look greyhound as i said before my ideal size for a dog is 20 inches

 

[Macha]

I don't know about Australia, but like Billyboy45 I have no doubt that the dogs in the ring in Britain and Ireland now are generally bigger than in the late 1970s/early 80s when I was showing in N Ireland. And I do think it is a combination of factors, but does include the fact that many dogs now have some US bloodlines and there the standard allows for 21 in bitches and 22 in dogs. Funny enough, I also think the average size in the US is bigger than it used to be. When I was in the US late 60s smaller UK imports such as Selbrook Highlight, Courtney Fleetfoot, Tantivvey Diver and Greenbrae Barndance (who I think was a bit larger than his aforementioned compatriots) were doing a lot of winning. I had a bitch 21 in, which even then was the upper-end of "ideal" in the standard, and a numbrt of times judges called for the measuring stick as she was the tallest bitch in the ring. She by the way has one UK grandsire, Fleeting Falcon, but the other 3 grandparents were from Stoney Meadows kennels. I gather that nowadays 21 bitches, 22 inch dogs are not exception in US shows.

 

[T Hoare]

The UK standard says the desirable height etc. This means that unless you have the hoops for measuring like Poodles then it is up to the judge to determine how much they play on this.

Don't forget that in the faults section it also says each fault to its degree.

Over breed standard size is just one fault, it is upto you or the judge how big(no pun intended) a fault they think it is.

 

[Seraphina]

When I was showing my first Whippet bitch in early 1990s she was, at 17.5", pretty much the size of the other girls in the ring here in OZ. When we then came to Europe we were worried that she pull herself up for the measuring, as 17.5" was the upper limit and they did indeed not allow bigger ones in the ring.

My Claudia is about 18.5" - 18.75" and often looks lot smaller than most in a line up; my guess is that 20" bitch is not unusual now, and that is only some 17 years later.

But it is up to each of us to try select for smaller. Not that size is always easy to predict; my Genevieve has some huge ancestors, she herself was 19" at 6.5 months and i was in tears, thinking she will end up huge, but she stayed the 19" and gave me little Claudia :thumbsup:

I certainly would not breed 20"+ bitch to a huge dogs, but size itself would not be the first thing on my mind, especially since your bitch is a good size. First look for a dog you like, look for a dog that compliments your bitch - dog that excels in a trait that your bitch does not. Forget about colour. Most full pigmented brindles and fawn carry the blue dilution gene, so you would get some blue brindle or fawn anyway.

What is your bitch's breeding? Why not contact the breeders and ask them to look at her and help you to find a suitable stud dog for her.

 

[GotWhippet?]

Hi Turbo,I wonder about this too! in particular with the popular American imports, I know they are the correct size for the UK standard and make very worthy champions, but do they carry genes that throw larger whippets of the American standard size?

Re. breeding consistent size - if only it was as easy as breeding a small one to a large one and getting a medium!! I also have a small whippet bitch and an eye to the future so I'll be interested to see your replies!

Re. size in the showring, I've noticed far more variability in dog whippets than in bitches, and more tolerance of the biggies - often described as 'masculine' when in my eyes they are too tall and beefy and more like small greyhounds than whippets. Just my opinion mind you - shoot me gently!

In regards to the American dogs. Maybe the pictures are deceiving but when I lived there most of the ones I saw weren't huge dogs and pretty similar in size to the ones in Australia. I saw a couple tall dogs there but I have also seen beefy or leggy ones here as well that are mostly of UK lines with no American in them. So I guess it's an all over thing and not just certain countries.

 

[aslan]

I think it also depends where you are in America. When I went on my 'whippety' holiday there I went to a Californian Specialty. There they were 'big' (according to my standards) and in Atlanta at an all breeds show I went to, a number of them were closer to my preferred height.

I think you also become easily acclimatised in the environment - I still found many dogs I liked in California and after a little while the height wasn't jarring to me because they were all similar. But would I have consciously bought a 22inch dog to bring home for my bitches? No.

 

[T Hoare]

I'm not sure if anyone has already mentioned this but you also have to look at relatives to the intended pedigree.

What I mean is if the dog & bitch is of the correct size you still have to consider the size that may be in parents, grandparents, aunties, uncles etc.

This is not always easy to do as normally you only see the show stock but it all helps.

 

[turb065]

As far as my height measurement of crispy it was fairly agricultural as it was with a ruler and she wouldn't stand still. As far as her pedigree her mum is aust champ rushdale bluebell and dad grand champ auriway meetoo. She was from cheshunt kennels in mildura. Her grand parents are taejaanx3, roachill, auriway, deeablo's (Imp UK), satinfeild and baronwrath. Crispy was not show registered, but she has blue paper's which i believe are temp register or something (correct me if im wrong) and last time i spoke to kim (Cheshunt Kennels) she said it could be changed? Correct me if i'm wrong. Currently i do not show and the reason i commented on height was just that most of the dogs/bitches i've stood crispy next to seem bigger. The reason i would like to breed from her is to keep her bloodline from rushdale is slowly getting thinner from what i've been told, and the fact that a few showers have said "i'd love a dog that colour" when i've been at shows, hence my interest. If i could breed her with a taejaan dog id be chuffed and if not id like to stick to colour.

Back to the issue of height, and importation, 2 dogs that i have met from hydale kennels of whom were bred from american lines seem to tower over crispy hence my observation

Opinions Apperciated :S

 

[turb065]

sorry update i found another paper which says cheshunt blue mist (crispy) 3100184177 Assumeably her rego? on a paper that says limited register which is orange assumabley this needs to be changed to be able to show or show her pups.

 

[aslan]

Yes - that is her name and her registration number. If she is on the limited register that means that Kim sold her as a pet because she didn't think she was good enough to show or to breed with, or she just didn't want her to be bred from just for the sake of breeding. The only way that Crispy can be put back on the main register is if Kim assesses her to be improved enough to be shown and/or bred from. And if Kim doesn't want to put her back on the main register then you cannot breed a pedigree litter from her.

And just because people (especially show people) say "I'd love a dog that colour" doesn't mean they're going to rush to you to buy one. They may like the colour but they may have no interest in her lines (or the lines of the dog you choose for her) or they may not even like her (but were tactful enough not to say so - and so commented on her colour)

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not trying to say your precious girl is not lovely, she may well be, but don't be swayed into thinking that people are going to rush to you to buy a puppy just because they said they would like a dog that colour.

You need to be having this conversation with Kim.

 

[T Hoare]

Yes - that is her name and her registration number. If she is on the limited register that means that Kim sold her as a pet because she didn't think she was good enough to show or to breed with, or she just didn't want her to be bred from just for the sake of breeding. The only way that Crispy can be put back on the main register is if Kim assesses her to be improved enough to be shown and/or bred from. And if Kim doesn't want to put her back on the main register then you cannot breed a pedigree litter from her.
And just because people (especially show people) say "I'd love a dog that colour" doesn't mean they're going to rush to you to buy one. They may like the colour but they may have no interest in her lines (or the lines of the dog you choose for her) or they may not even like her (but were tactful enough not to say so - and so commented on her colour)

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not trying to say your precious girl is not lovely, she may well be, but don't be swayed into thinking that people are going to rush to you to buy a puppy just because they said they would like a dog that colour.

You need to be having this conversation with Kim.

Very sensible post, I agree. :thumbsup:

 

[turb065]

Ok comments understood, and taken with all respect, but when i first got crispy i had no intetions of showing her, hence why kim put her on limited register a. to save her money b. beaucse there was no reason to register her in the pedigree register (if thats what its called). Kim also said this could be changed if i liked. The initial reason i got a whippet is i wanted a small fast dog to do agility trialing with, which will still happen when we get there. Also as far as "not being good enough to show" many comments have been made by kim that she looks exactly like her mum, and by knocker (auriway) that she has excellent shape and temperment, so lol. My main intetion to breed from her is basically to have a son from her to HOPEFULLY be able to show. If this is not recommended by kim (whos word i'd take as gospel over anyone from the net) then i will not do it and get another dog to go down this path. As never having shown, but been to shows this interests me, but if this is the attitude from people who do show on promoting showing it may make me think again. :angry: