Idea's What Could Be Done

[rob67]

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If you were to go back over the last 5 yrs of litters, what do people think the percentage of litters sired by greyhounds as a first cross, and then bred back to a greyhound within 3 generations might be? If I had the 'knowledge' I would work it out myself and wondered if anyone had indeed worked it out?......................just curious about the stats and how this has affected the smaller non-ped gene pool and what evidence there is that there hasn't been enough dilution of the gene pool at present, and whether it could withstand a reduction in the amount of greyhound interbreeding?

chris

 

[rodders]

Can I ask Tony, cos you seem to understand genetics, if you did breed the likes of deneside belle to our ebby, would the pups, even if they were different weights, have the same amount of greyhound in their breeding? And would that be advantageous over a non-ped racing in the same weight category? Cos I would imagine you can get greyhounds that are smaller in size traced back in greyhounds lineage, depending on which one's you used.
chris.

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The answer is no, the pups wouldn't all have the same amount of ghd in their breeding.

I'll try to explain;

a dog has 78 chromosones and it is these chromosones that contain the genetic code that translates into the shape and type of dog. These chromosones are arranged in pairs and each chromosone is different from all the others except the one it is paired with. Hence a dog has 39 pairs of chromosones.

In a whippet x ghd half the chromosones are from the whippet and half from the ghd in a way that every pair of chromosones has a whippet and a ghd chromosone.

Meiosis is the process of producing sperm or female "eggs"

During meiosis the paired chromosones split off from each other and half of them go to make one sperm or egg. That is a sperm only has half the 78 chromosones.

There is independant assortment of chromasones during meiosis. By which I mean that for any pair of chromosones it is pure chance whether the sperm gains the chromosone originaly derived from the whippet or the chromosone original derived from the ghd. The same applies to each pair of chromosones Hence the sperm or egg counld contain between zero and all ghd chromosones and any combination inbetween ( there are 549755813888 different combinations )

When the egg and sperm meet and fuse the 39 chromosones from the sperm pair up with the 39 from the egg to form the 78 pairs again

( the above is simplified for demonstration purposes)

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OK. Thanks for that simplified version So, no-one, unless thay did the most accurate of DNA testing,and that prob costs a bit I would imagine, can say how much greyhound there is in any of our non-ped whippets? And..........previously to whenever the scratch was evolved this was not as much of an issue as it is today, how else can we reduce the amount of greyhound stock in the dogs we are racing now then? Because although you seem to advocate running non-peds with greyhounds, which for me is a rather strange suggestion for someone with the 'knowledge' that appears so important to have in order for a point to be seen as valid, the rest of the opinion seems against it.

Perhaps to limit the opportunity to not breed back to a greyhound in specific circumstances might work. What evidence has anyone got that it wont work? Cos there doesnt seem to have been any reduction in this over the last few years to take any evidence from.If it is such a lottery as to whether your dog will have chromosomes from a grew or a whippet, are the chances of having a litter with the majority of dogs being predominately greyhound reduced if the lines are bred away from a full greyhound?

Perhaps there is a need to stop being so far up our own ars*s in thinking that there is only one way of doing things in scratch racing, because people who might judge themselves as being 'knowledgeable' and able to recollect the history of non-ped racing clearly haven't been able to rectify a problem that was clearly identified some time ago..................which possibly excludes those who have just started with big dogs, and are presumed less 'knowledgeable'.

chris.

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I love your replys Chris :thumbsup:

My question Tony is do YOU think that by restricting (I don't mean stopping)the use of full greyhounds in generation breeding we could bring down the size of the scratch dogs over a period of time.Just a yes or no please. :lol: The amount of generations before greyhound use again can be addressed aswell if you answer Yes :thumbsup:

 

[tinarpoole]

BRILLIANT TOPIC WITH A WIDE RANGE OF SENSIBLE OPINIONS.CAN SEE WHERE TONY IS COMING FROM WITH THE NEED TO CONTINUALLY WIDEN THE GENE POOL AS IN GREYHOUNDS WITH THE WIDESCALE SUCCESS OF THE AUSTALIAN AND AMERICAN BLOODLINES.ALTERNATIVELY IRISH DAMS BEING EXPORTED ALL AROUND THE WORLD.THE WHIPPET IN THE 60S EVOLVED FROM EACH REGION HAVING ITS OWN CHARACTERISTICS MANCHESTER TERRIER,BEDLINGTON.STAFF ETC THEN WITH THE WHIPPET NEWS BEING INTRODUCED THE LINE WAS DOMINATED BY BILKO AND BLUE PETER PROGENY.GREYHOND BLOOD WASNT REALLY INTRODUCED UNTIL THE MID 70S AND THEN ONLY THE EXCEPTION NOT THE RULE AS WITH TODAY.I HAVE 2 BITCHES ONE HALF GREYHOND WEIGHS 38 ONE THIRD WEIGHS 33 AND A PUP WITH 80PER CENT WHIPPET WHICH WEIGHS 21.I LOVE THEM ALL THE SAME AND EQUALLY LIKE RACING THEM SO IM FAR FROM BEING AGAINST SCRATCH RACING.BUT WE ARE TAKING OUR EYE OFF THE BALL DOGS OF ABOVE 60LBS ARE NOT WHIPPETS AND WE MUSTNT BE ENCOURAGED TO BREED THEM WHERE DOES IT STOP ONLY THE BWRA AND NWRF CAN MONITOR THE SITUATION.

I CAN GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I MEAN IN IRELAND COURSING PROGENY BRED FOR CLONMEL PARK COURSING NO LONGER RACE AS THE MAJORITY ARE MUCH TOO BIG OVER 100LBS.THIS HAS EVOLVED INTO A SEPERATE BREED.

 

[Paws123]

The easiest way to prevent the none problem of continually breeding to the ghd is to allow full ghd in the no limit having the extra scratch classes as the NNWRF has as the removes the point of breeding such crosses in the first place.

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Hey tony what do you reckon to my new no limit greyhound

If you think greyhound should be allowed to be raced in the NNWRF Scr classes and the NNWRF make extra scratch classes to accompany them this is what’s going to happen

a) Lack of our own members breeding , why because it’s easier to buy a greyhound in already proving its racing ability

b) What happens to them when there racing carers finished... we have all heard the horror stories of greyhounds and re-homing...do we imply as ngrc “every greyhound that has ceased racing must have a Retirement form “

c) Genuine none ped racer leaving our sport because they don’t want to race against greyhound ... I think there will be a few

d) Will defra step in and impose their rules

e) I could go on forever , but think hard about your statement there’s plenty reasons why not “to allow full ghd in the no limit and have the extra scratch classes”

 

[sherry]

im very curious to know how many whippets or so called whippets are 60+? the way this topic is u wud think there were dozens. i dont c wots wrong with the scratch myself and i dont know whose accusing who of racing greyhounds but all i can say is they must b small greyhounds. the topic is wot can be done with scratch racing? well personally i think its fine the way it is other than all the solo classes in the pup/yearling and vet classes one way of sorting this out is put them all in together or another way is introduce 2 new scr classes 4 those but do away with 40/48 and no limit and maybe have say 45lb and 55lb. i must admit ive always thought the scr classes a bit odd when u think about it bwra 36lb as the limit is 32lb so thats a 4lb weight class then 40lb also a 4lb weight class then no limit which cud a 20lb weight class. so really the 48lb class was a good idea but may not work for the pup/vets/yearling sc. all just my own opinion.

 

[Paws123]

im very curious to know how many whippets or so called whippets are 60+? the way this topic is u wud think there were dozens. i dont c wots wrong with the scratch myself and i dont know whose accusing who of racing greyhounds but all i can say is they must b small greyhounds. the topic is wot can be done with scratch racing? well personally i think its fine the way it is other than all the solo classes in the pup/yearling and vet classes one way of sorting this out is put them all in together or another way is introduce 2 new scr classes 4 those but do away with 40/48 and no limit and maybe have say 45lb and 55lb. i must admit ive always thought the scr classes a bit odd when u think about it bwra 36lb as the limit is 32lb so thats a 4lb weight class then 40lb also a 4lb weight class then no limit which cud a 20lb weight class. so really the 48lb class was a good idea but may not work for the pup/vets/yearling sc. all just my own opinion.

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Spot on Carole ... think the dogs at are accused are small ..what i would call inferior greyhounds ...but if we allow these dogs to run its opening the door for others and the much bigger greyhound ...if you get my drift

If we the nnwrf have the entries at our events for all 3 scr classes in vet pups yearling then we will run it that way ...great :thumbsup:

but if the classes are solos in all 3 i don't see a problem putting the dogs together and saving on cost for trophys ...thats all i was say

 

[tinarpoole]

SHERRY I AGREE WITH LOOKING AT REORGANISING THE SCRATCH CLASSES A GOOD SUGGESTION.BUT ITS NOT ABOUT THE 60LB DOGS THAT ARE AROUND AT THE MOMENT ITS THE ONES THAT WILL BE AROUND IN THE FUTURE IF BREEDERS CONTINUE TO BREED THEM.IF YOU WANT A SCRATCH DOG PUT A WHIPPET TO A GREYHOUND BY ALL MEANS OR HALF GREYHOUND TO HALF GREYHOUND OR GREYHOUND TO A WHIPPET BITCH.BUT NOT GREYHOUND TO THREE QUARTER GREYHOUND WHERE YOU ARE LIKELY TO GET 60 LBERS.THERE WILL SOMETIMES BE ANOMOLIES AND THROWBACKS AND I DONT WANT GENUINE RACERS TO BE PENALISED FROM RACING THERE DOGS BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER THE LIMIT BUT SOME MEASURES MUST BE TAKEN TO CONTAIN THE SIZE OF THE BREED.ANOTHER OPTION TO WIDEN THE GENE POOL IS THE RE INTRODUCTION OF PEDIGREE LINES.A VERY WELL KNOWN BREEDER AGREES WITH ME ON THIS.

 

[Paws123]

[SIZE=14pt]QUESTION FOR SCR DOG OWNERS [/SIZE]

Time and time again we hear people with the heavier scr dog saying they would like a bitch to use their dog for stud

There’s a lot of none ped racers whom have heavier dogs that are not getting used for stud, which I think should be breed with their own kind (SEE ROBS LAST POST) :thumbsup: ...due to the availability of breeding greyhounds so easy these dogs are not getting used..So there blood line is not contributing to the none ped breeding program

We have just lined bally spot 32lb to stag possessed 35lb ... I am hoping there will be a nice scr pup comes from these two (36LB PLUS) ... I am also hoping for some yard lb’ers too :thumbsup: .. If these pups do well and hopefully in the future I would line her again with possible a 40 plus lber ...

If the greyhound brood bitch was took out of the equation for a while...would scr racers breed there whippet x greyhound bitch with the same breed stud dog to produce scr dogs if that’s what weigh they preferred

 

[JOHNG]

im very curious to know how many whippets or so called whippets are 60+? the way this topic is u wud think there were dozens. i dont c wots wrong with the scratch myself and i dont know whose accusing who of racing greyhounds but all i can say is they must b small greyhounds. the topic is wot can be done with scratch racing? well personally i think its fine the way it is other than all the solo classes in the pup/yearling and vet classes one way of sorting this out is put them all in together or another way is introduce 2 new scr classes 4 those but do away with 40/48 and no limit and maybe have say 45lb and 55lb. i must admit ive always thought the scr classes a bit odd when u think about it bwra 36lb as the limit is 32lb so thats a 4lb weight class then 40lb also a 4lb weight class then no limit which cud a 20lb weight class. so really the 48lb class was a good idea but may not work for the pup/vets/yearling sc. all just my own opinion.

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o

if they keep breeding like they are there soon will be plenty of 60lb+ dogs :- "

 

[whippeteerThe1st]

ive not read all this topic,s

but if there is going to be a cap on dog weights in future

wot about say in 4 year,s time i.e 2012 dogs will be capped at say 48lb or 44lb thus giving dogs over that weight to run there careers at this time then introducing the capped weight

i must addmitt i love heavy weight dogs,,,,but squeezing a dog over a certain size and weight into a whippet trap is abit uncalled for , even if there,s only just a few,, i woudnt like getting crapped into a crisp box myself god knows wot the dogs feel like

 

[tinarpoole]

STAG POSSESSED /BALLYSTORM GREAT BREEDING MAYBE DEENSIDE BELLE NEXT TIME A REAL FLYING MACHINE.BUT WILL NOT THROW THE 60 LBS CROSSES THAT COME FROM GREYHOUND TWO THIRD GREYHOUND.A CLEVER THOUGHT THAT SCRATCH STUD DOGS MAY BE THERE OWN WORST ENEMY IN THE CURRENT CLIMATE A TYPICAL EXAMPLE IS BIGLAND BOY .ANYBODY WHO SAW HIS EARLY PACE AT LAST WEEKS NWRF COULDNT FAIL TO BE IMPRESSED BY THE 8 YEAR OLD.A VERY CONSTRUCTIVE POST DENISE WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK.

 

[sherry]

i wish people wud get the bloody weight capping out of their heads. its the way they r being bred not the weights of scratch dogs that i think is the isssue! i wonder how much uproar there wud b if i said is 16lb too light to race? shud we put a limit on small dogs and say nothing under 18lb shud run? hmmm no there wud b hell on.

 

[whippeteerThe1st]

lets put it this way if i had a dog that is similar to a greyhound in size i wouldnt be putting it in a whippet trap,,,,bugger that, :thumbsup:

 

[sherry]

lets put it this way if i had a dog that is similar to a greyhound in size i wouldnt be putting it in a whippet trap,,,,bugger that, :thumbsup:

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thats up to u but give people the choice wot they do with their own dog my no limit is 47/48lb and fits in a whippet trap fine but if she was 60lb and didnt fit in then i wudnt put her in and as gary bailey said if they fit in a whippet trap then let them race.

 

[Fleesh]

As I said before it's not always up to the h/w or scratch dog owners to get their dogs at stud to h/w bitches. Sometimes the h/w bitch owners want to put their bitch to a small stud dog to try and get smaller handicap dogs rather than put their faith in a scratch or h/w dog and possibly end up with no scratch dogs or l/w's for the straights. In these cases then what should we do ? Prevent the h/w or scratch dog from breeding at all because nobody wants to put their bitch to a "big dog". It would just be another way of losing bloodlines and closing the gene pool. If you have a big dog with a talent (the likes of as Rob mentioned - Bigland Boy) then we cannot fairly penalise the dog and risk losing it's bloodline just becasue it's big.

Vicious cirle admittedly but for these reasons I cannot see that it is fair to cap the weights or restrict the breeding. I applaud the likes of Dee who see no problem in putting their h/w bitch to a h/w dog, as she mentioned it would be nice to get some scratch dogs from the mating but it's not the end of the world if she doesn't. I fully intend to put Moany Moany to a heavier dog in the future and see no reason why other bitch owners would not do the same. Otherwise we are trapping other members of our own sport into putting their h/w dog soley to greyhounds in an attemt to preserve their bloodline.

 

[Paws123]

i wish people wud get the bloody weight capping out of their heads. its the way they r being bred not the weights of scratch dogs that i think is the isssue! i wonder how much uproar there wud b if i said is 16lb too light to race? shud we put a limit on small dogs and say nothing under 18lb shud run? hmmm no there wud b hell on.

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That why no one in the right mind would line 2 16lbers Carole ..we would end up with church mice so to speak

 

[Trojan]

Yeah and lets be honest the church mouse whippets have already been penalised and are in my personal opinion more whippet like than the 60lbers. Lets make it fairer for 16lbers and have more 140yd/lb or more 1 1/2yd/lb on the bends or even if god help anyone wanting to run a 14lber give it is alloted yardage, as often they would be penalised Carole from the offset as whippets it seems officially start at 16lb so where does the top limit stop before they are no longer whippets!!!!!!!!!

See it could be different arguments at the opposite end of the scale if we saw fit to make a debate about it.

Please Save the Church Mice Whippets !!!!!!!!!! :teehee:

Ok before i get slagged off for being sarcastic aswell as unknowledgable and having a CV that doesnt impress - said partly in jest but ................... history of whippets and all!!!!!

 

[Paws123]

Yeah and lets be honest the church mouse whippets have already been penalised and are in my personal opinion more whippet like than the 60lbers.  Lets make it fairer for 16lbers and have more 140yd/lb or more 1 1/2yd/lb on the bends or even if god help anyone wanting to run a 14lber give it is alloted yardage, as often they would be penalised Carole from the offset as whippets it seems officially start at 16lb so where does the top limit stop before they are no longer whippets!!!!!!!!!
See it could be different arguments at the opposite end of the scale if we saw fit to make a debate about it.

Please Save the Church Mice Whippets !!!!!!!!!!  :teehee:

Ok before i get slagged off for being sarcastic aswell as unknowledgable and having a CV that doesnt impress - said partly in jest but ................... history of whippets and all!!!!!

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exactly :thumbsup:

 

[sherry]

pmsl laffing @ church mice whippets :lol: :lol: :lol:

all im saying is its always the scratch dog for some reason where these huge debates start. :thumbsup:

 

[gary farmer]

MR FLETCHER

I SAID A LOT OF THINGS THAT I LOOK AT NOW AND FIND QUITE OFFENSIVE

AS FOR OTHER EVENTS I FELT THAT I WAS BEING PUBLICLY BULLIED AND REACTED IN MY USUAL MANNER

WE WERE BOTH GIVEN AMMUNITION TO FIRE WHICH LED TO US BOTH TRYING TO GET ONE UP ON EACH OTHER

I IMPLIED IN A POEM THAT YOUR DOG WAS 'LIT UP' FOR WHICH I [SIZE=14pt]APOLOGISE[/SIZE]

I DONT THINK FOR ONE MINUTE WE CAN BE BEST BUDDIES

BUT IF WE PUT AS MUCH EFFORT INTO WORKING TOGETHER TO PROMOTE SCRATCH RACING AS WE HAVE ARGUING

THEN I CAN ONLY SEE A GREAT FUTURE FOR THE SPORT

DO HOPE YOU GET WELL SOON

GARY FARMER

:cheers: :thumbsup: