Idea's What Could Be Done

[got-the-cent]

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nice gene pool .......the sire is our own soapyjoe, they are both maddison x homebird from different matings. we wanted to carry on the maddison x homebird line. :- "

 

[mutley]

u got me chris there again a crap greyhound against a good scratch non peddy would get its arsse kicked too

 

[Paws123]

Nobody on this forum can tell me a 60lb dog is a whippet....

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What's Deneside Belle then ? If he isn't a whippet then what is Mai-zee-mu ? Since they are litter brother and sister it would be odd for one to be a whippet and the other not.

Genetically deneside belles gone more on the greyhound side and vise versa mai-zee-mu fathers

A 3 generation limit on the ghd won't work because

a) people will lie

b)mate Deneside Belle to Our Ebby and you still have a "half" cross but what are the chances of them being small? Mate brother to sister from this litter or any big half cross and then you'd be allowed back to the ghd. Geneticaly you're still as near as dammit to a full ghd as the 7/8ths and 15/16ths people seem to object to.

I haven't any objection to any genuine none ped x no ped been breed ...i honestly think we have more greyhound blood in our none peds now than none ped blood with no greyhound blood in them ...99.9 % of dogs run today that have greyhound blood in it 5 generation back over

Why do people want to exclude the super saturated ghd crosses anyway/ The only people it affects are the no limit scratch racers. The breeding doesn't affect the handicap or smaller scratch classes in any case since it's highly unlikely anyone would consider them for breeding other than no limit dogs.

If you think the non ped type can do without ghd blood you're very much mistaken. There are very few handicap dogs that can go back 5 generations without a ghd in the breeding. If you total up the total known ghd blood it's more than you might imagine and that's ignoring the fact that the ghd is the basis of the breed in the first place.

Why do people want to exclude the super saturated ghd crosses anyway/ The only people it affects are the no limit scratch racers. Yes and its proved in k9 all week its certain ones racing the scr dogs that are affected ..has it not ?

The smaller whippet is not a true breeding type like peds are. They are a ghd base whose phenotype or body shape is altered by a very small number of genes. The more of these aberrant genes the dog has the smaller it is. Continually breeding 18lbs together wont produce a whippet that can match an 18lb bred down from a near ghd ancestor. Without the ghd breeding the non ped type will end up worse than the peds in no time at all and would easily be beaten by a "lurcher" with ghd ancestory.

If greyhounds were not breed with the stock we have now for the next 5 years i don't not believe it would make any impact at all to body shape or speed...as said 99.9% of our dogs today all have greyhound blood in them some where along the line , hopefully some of the scr dogs would get used more as stud dogs on the heavy none ped whippets... and i am more than certain the results would be the same as what they are achieving with greyhound x small none ped whippet now...

The easiest way to prevent the none problem of continually breeding to the ghd is to allow fullghd in the no limit having the extra scratch classes as the NNWRF has as the removes the point of breeding such crosses in the first place.

Don't think we should open the doors to your every day greyhound running at our none ped whippet events ... we would be over run with them during the bend season ...they don't like our large no limiters racing against there greyhounds at the greyhound meetings ...can just see it now all the locals greyhound lads from easington carrying there kick boards to the traps ...

There's no point in saying the no limit is for whippets if you're going to say a 60lb dog isn't a whippet in any case.

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[Tony Taylor]

Can I ask Tony, cos you seem to understand genetics, if you did breed the likes of deneside belle to our ebby, would the pups, even if they were different weights, have the same amount of greyhound in their breeding? And would that be advantageous over a non-ped racing in the same weight category? Cos I would imagine you can get greyhounds that are smaller in size traced back in greyhounds lineage, depending on which one's you used.
chris.

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The answer is no, the pups wouldn't all have the same amount of ghd in their breeding.

I'll try to explain;

a dog has 78 chromosones and it is these chromosones that contain the genetic code that translates into the shape and type of dog. These chromosones are arranged in pairs and each chromosone is different from all the others except the one it is paired with. Hence a dog has 39 pairs of chromosones.

In a whippet x ghd half the chromosones are from the whippet and half from the ghd in a way that every pair of chromosones has a whippet and a ghd chromosone.

Meiosis is the process of producing sperm or female "eggs"

During meiosis the paired chromosones split off from each other and half of them go to make one sperm or egg. That is a sperm only has half the 78 chromosones.

There is independant assortment of chromasones during meiosis. By which I mean that for any pair of chromosones it is pure chance whether the sperm gains the chromosone originaly derived from the whippet or the chromosone original derived from the ghd. The same applies to each pair of chromosones Hence the sperm or egg counld contain between zero and all ghd chromosones and any combination inbetween ( there are 549755813888 different combinations )

When the egg and sperm meet and fuse the 39 chromosones from the sperm pair up with the 39 from the egg to form the 78 pairs again

( the above is simplified for demonstration purposes)

 

[Tony Taylor]

The simple solution for all those not wanting any ghd in their breeding or not wanting to run with the bigger ghd cross dogs is buy a KC registered pedigree whippet. I believe they have their own race events where only dogs of guarrenteed pure parentage can run. You might want to consider what closing the gene pool has done to the KC whippet though.
I personaly don't want to run little dogs and I suspect many scratch racers feel the same way. If the type of dog I want to run isn't accommadated by the BWRA or NNWRF then I won't run with those organisations. I could always go back lurcher racing. Any scratch racing titles given out by organisations with a restricted entry will be worthless since the winning dog won't be the fastest dog in the country anymore - that accolade will belong to the top racing "lurcher". No doubt, rather like the peds, we'll end up with a situation where the champ dogs won't race against lurchers to save them the embarrasment of being beaten.

I appears to me the people wanting change have no knowledge of how the current non ped type was originaly formed, no knowledge of the history of whippet racing, no knowledge of basic genetics, no understanding of the ramification of closing the gene pool on the current type and misunderstand what the result of effectively ruining scratch racing will have on the membership levels and financial status of the whippet racing bodies.

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MY THOUGHTS ENTIRELY GARY :thumbsup:

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I guess some people might say that any thoughts on the matter, however knowledgeable, are better than sticking with an old way of doing things that has proved itself to be ineffective in managing the issues thus far. As long as you have breeders that state they will do whatever they want and stuff everyone else, then we are all fighting a losing battle.

I wasn't aware that the suggestion had been made to close the gene pool entirely......and, as someone who is a bit of a thicko when it comes to gene pools, I thought that over the past few years the gene pool has been considerably extended in the scratch racing, due to breeding with greyhounds, so how will the proposed reductions have such a drastic effect?

I'm curious how such a dramatic downturn in the financial staus of both organisations might result from the genuine concern of those racing in the scratch fields to want to make the racing safer and fairer?I agree knee jerk reactions are dangerous and might do more harm than good, but there is nothing wrong in considering doing things differently in order to safeguard the dogs and the sport.

chris

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What are the issues exactly?

The problem is that almost any proposed rules to limit the creation of the ghd crosses that seem to be the problem for some people won't be effective without curtailing the essential ghd blood that underpins the non ped whippet type. People won't breed dogs they can't race and limits on breeding aren't going to be effective if you allow parent unkown "lurchers" to be registered.

The BWRA lost money last year. I understand the NNWRF isn't in any sort of financial trouble but it doesn't have an enormous fiancial cushion either. A downturn in attendances, say because of increased fuel costs, plus areduction in scratch racers attending and things might look a little less rosy.

How exactly are these proposed changes going to safeguard either the sport or the dogs safety? All the dogs in the no limit are big and simply reducing the number of times you can visit the ghd won't ensure they get smaller. Of course reducing the numbers running will reduce the number of accidents. Accidents in the scratch are no more frequent than in the handicap as far as I can see.

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tony so you think if ghd was not used they would get bigger lol you might get odd big one but im sure you would find in two generations would drastially reduce :thumbsup:

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I didn't say that if the ghd was not used they would get bigger.

 

[Tony Taylor]

  All the dogs in the no limit are big and simply reducing the number of times you can visit the ghd won't ensure they get smaller.

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How did they get bigger in the first place then? Not being knowledgeable about the history of non-ped racing it would be good to understand, and there's not many places to find out about it apart from on here and at the track.

chris

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by adding in ghd and breeding out the whippet genes by selctive breeding

 

[Tony Taylor]

nice gene pool .......the sire is our own soapyjoe, they are both maddison x homebird from different matings. we wanted to carry on the maddison x homebird line.  :- "

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so how much duplication of genes has gone on in the above verses retention of genes in the gene pool ?

I had a specific reason for doing that mating but didn't get a bitch. If you know the dogs and understand meiosis you might work it out.

Perhaps you should check out the breeding of Taylor Maid while you're at it.

 

[rodders]

Tony,you may well think it is ok to run greyhounds with No Limits,and this may well be because of genetics,BUT and a big BUT :lol: when I bought Harv as a pup I bought him knowing there was whippet in his make up,and also knowing I wanted a scratch dog :thumbsup: I did exactly the same with Jake(Skybound)he just didn't grow as much :lol: I bought them both to come whippet racing with.I knew I would need some greyhound to get a scratch dog,but I also knew that to race in non peds(which is what I want to do)I would have some whippet in the make up :thumbsup: If I wanted to race against greyhounds,I would have bought a greyhound and gone greyhound racing

 

[cavendishlady]

Just a word about scratch dogs having solos,

I had Naz's Warrior (45lb) and now have Denside Colin (45lb). There is solos every year in dog racing. Just leave the scratch dogs alone. There are alot of dogs under 32lb that had alot of solos every year that goes passed not just in the scratch section. This is my opinion ' LEAVE THE SCRATCH DOGS ALONE'

Geoff (Scratch Dog Owner) :rant:

 

[Paws123]

Just a word about scratch dogs having solos,
I had Naz's Warrior (45lb) and now have Denside Colin (45lb). There is solos every year in dog racing. Just leave the scratch dogs alone.  There are alot of dogs under 32lb that had alot of solos every year that goes passed not just in the scratch section.  This is my opinion ' LEAVE THE SCRATCH DOGS ALONE'

Geoff (Scratch Dog Owner)  :rant:

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Jeff i know all dog get solo but was showing that if we add another class of say 60lb the out lay financially would be quite big as would attract people into racing and breeding bigger again ..possible greyhounds... and possible solos all year round

 

[got-the-cent]

nice gene pool .......the sire is our own soapyjoe, they are both maddison x homebird from different matings. we wanted to carry on the maddison x homebird line.   :- "

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so how much duplication of genes has gone on in the above verses retention of genes in the gene pool ?

I had a specific reason for doing that mating but didn't get a bitch. If you know the dogs and understand meiosis you might work it out.

Perhaps you should check out the breeding of Taylor Maid while you're at it.

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surely you must see you interbreeding and do not even try to say it's right.come on you suppose to be a educated man.To me what you did with these dogs is worce than these people putting to much greyhound into the non ped whippets.Gene pool what next tony son mother ect ect.What would of happened if them pups had turned out blind,deaf or major organ damage.or yes see you had your thinking hat on that day :wacko: .And before anyone jumps on this these two dogs were scratch dogs

 

[sherry]

quote dee, Carole the yearling are only in there for 6 months and pups about 4 months unlike the vet and adult scr

I know what you are saying ... To be honest i was trying to explain if we introduced another class 60lb as mentioned ..that would be an extra 12 classes to cater for ... and i was pointing out the lack of entry's in the puppy, yearling and vet scr classes... this year with the 48lb extra classes theres been alot of increase in our trophy bill...but remember some trophy's are to hand back

When the extra class of 48lb was added ...certain member one been yourself asked if we could make the pups and yearling scr classes the same 40 48 and no limit...this was Scotland 06 if i remember right

dee i have never ever asked for pups/yearlings vets scr classes 2 b the same as adults infact im not even bothered about the 48lb class to me no limit is no limit and as im not bothered about bend racing the heaviest id run nikki with is possibly musclebound @ 58lb so u r mistaken there :thumbsup:

 

[Paws123]

quote dee, Carole the yearling are only in there for 6 months and pups about 4 months unlike the vet and adult scrI know what you are saying ... To be honest i was trying to explain if we introduced another class 60lb as mentioned ..that would be an extra 12 classes to cater for ... and i was pointing out the lack of entry's in the puppy, yearling and vet scr classes... this year with the 48lb extra classes theres been alot of increase in our trophy bill...but remember some trophy's are to hand back

When the extra class of 48lb was added ...certain member one been yourself asked if we could make the pups and yearling scr classes the same 40 48 and no limit...this was Scotland 06 if i remember right

dee i have never ever asked for pups/yearlings vets scr classes 2 b the same as adults infact im not even bothered about the 48lb class to me no limit is no limit and as im not bothered about bend racing the heaviest id run nikki with is possibly musclebound @ 58lb so u r mistaken there  :thumbsup:

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Carole it was it the nnwrf forum ..it was the puppy/yearling champs Scotland ..you raced nikie whizz in ..if i can find it on my hard drive the achieves for the forum i will show you ... think the same year as you put a trophy on for either pup/yearling scr at one of Scotland's events

 

[sherry]

wot i wudve asked for dee is a puppy scratch i know i wudnt have asked for all three classes. infact there wasnt all 3 classes coz il tell u who ran shay, nikki whizz and fat stag, shay was i think 49lb then and im sure fat stag was about 40lb and nikki was 47lb and the trophy i put on was for the scottish derby scratch all in not 40lb 48lb no limit etc. like i said the 48lb class has never bothered me there was only 1 in that class @ this years fed event as ya do. i know i have never ever asked for puppy scr to be 40 48 and no limit i know this for a fact coz i dont agree with it as there will b lots of solos

 

[sherry]

sorry there was a 40lb pups but i know that all i asked for was a puppy scratch

 

[Paws123]

Probably right Carole.. :thumbsup:

 

[Tony Taylor]

there is no easy solution to this dilemma without affecting some genuine members dogs I would hate for that to happen perhaps the way forward is accept what are allready registered as what they are supposed to be non-ped whippets when weve weeded out the imposters if we can and look to what we accept for registration in the future i.e no greyhound blood for the next 5 years, no 3/4 gh x 3/4 gh, no imported stock

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SORRY LINDA JUST WATCH IF THIS WAS TO HAPPEN READ THIS TOPIC IN 5 YEARS TIME

1 UNDER SHOT PUPS

2 DOUBLE MUSCLING

3 BULLY TYPE PUPS

4 MORE C SECTIONS THAN EVER BEFORE

5 PUPS WITH NO GENITALS

THIS IS JUST FIVE OF THE THINGS YOU WILL GET IF YOU WAS TO CLOSE THE GENE POOL FOR MORE THAN A FEW GENERATOINS

YOU MIGHT THINK IM TALKING RUBBISH BUT IT WILL HAPPEN

AND I WONT BE ROUND WAITING FOR IT . SO I CAN SAY TOLD YOU SO

GARY

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I missed this before but Gary is correct. The small non ped whippet is not a true breeding type. It is a ghd base whose type or appearance is changed by a small number genes. the gene pool is very small and there is a significant number of genetic faults present. Without the ghd blood the type will deteriote rapidly.

 

[Tony Taylor]

nice gene pool .......the sire is our own soapyjoe, they are both maddison x homebird from different matings. we wanted to carry on the maddison x homebird line.   :- "

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so how much duplication of genes has gone on in the above verses retention of genes in the gene pool ?

I had a specific reason for doing that mating but didn't get a bitch. If you know the dogs and understand meiosis you might work it out.

Perhaps you should check out the breeding of Taylor Maid while you're at it.

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surely you must see you interbreeding and do not even try to say it's right.come on you suppose to be a educated man.To me what you did with these dogs is worce than these people putting to much greyhound into the non ped whippets.Gene pool what next tony son mother ect ect.What would of happened if them pups had turned out blind,deaf or major organ damage.or yes see you had your thinking hat on that day :wacko: .And before anyone jumps on this these two dogs were scratch dogs

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There is no point arguing this mating will someone who doesn't understand what occurs during meiosis. You're entitled to your opinion even if it is based on predudice rather than understanding and as such I really don't care what about what you have to say on this matter.. The pups didn't turn out deaf, blind or have any major organ damage although that isn't actually a suprise, well not to me anyway.

 

[toadfish]

there is no easy solution to this dilemma without affecting some genuine members dogs I would hate for that to happen perhaps the way forward is accept what are allready registered as what they are supposed to be non-ped whippets when weve weeded out the imposters if we can and look to what we accept for registration in the future i.e no greyhound blood for the next 5 years, no 3/4 gh x 3/4 gh, no imported stock

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SORRY LINDA JUST WATCH IF THIS WAS TO HAPPEN READ THIS TOPIC IN 5 YEARS TIME

1 UNDER SHOT PUPS

2 DOUBLE MUSCLING

3 BULLY TYPE PUPS

4 MORE C SECTIONS THAN EVER BEFORE

5 PUPS WITH NO GENITALS

THIS IS JUST FIVE OF THE THINGS YOU WILL GET IF YOU WAS TO CLOSE THE GENE POOL FOR MORE THAN A FEW GENERATOINS

YOU MIGHT THINK IM TALKING RUBBISH BUT IT WILL HAPPEN

AND I WONT BE ROUND WAITING FOR IT . SO I CAN SAY TOLD YOU SO

GARY

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I missed this before but Gary is correct. The small non ped whippet is not a true breeding type. It is a ghd base whose type or appearance is changed by a small number genes. the gene pool is very small and there is a significant number of genetic faults present. Without the ghd blood the type will deteriote rapidly.

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tony instead of just saying what we cant do why not get that great interllect working on how we can make scratch better and safer for the people who are running in it week after week .

regards

graham

 

[rob67]

Can I ask Tony, cos you seem to understand genetics, if you did breed the likes of deneside belle to our ebby, would the pups, even if they were different weights, have the same amount of greyhound in their breeding? And would that be advantageous over a non-ped racing in the same weight category? Cos I would imagine you can get greyhounds that are smaller in size traced back in greyhounds lineage, depending on which one's you used.
chris.

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The answer is no, the pups wouldn't all have the same amount of ghd in their breeding.

I'll try to explain;

a dog has 78 chromosones and it is these chromosones that contain the genetic code that translates into the shape and type of dog. These chromosones are arranged in pairs and each chromosone is different from all the others except the one it is paired with. Hence a dog has 39 pairs of chromosones.

In a whippet x ghd half the chromosones are from the whippet and half from the ghd in a way that every pair of chromosones has a whippet and a ghd chromosone.

Meiosis is the process of producing sperm or female "eggs"

During meiosis the paired chromosones split off from each other and half of them go to make one sperm or egg. That is a sperm only has half the 78 chromosones.

There is independant assortment of chromasones during meiosis. By which I mean that for any pair of chromosones it is pure chance whether the sperm gains the chromosone originaly derived from the whippet or the chromosone original derived from the ghd. The same applies to each pair of chromosones Hence the sperm or egg counld contain between zero and all ghd chromosones and any combination inbetween ( there are 549755813888 different combinations )

When the egg and sperm meet and fuse the 39 chromosones from the sperm pair up with the 39 from the egg to form the 78 pairs again

( the above is simplified for demonstration purposes)

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OK. Thanks for that simplified version So, no-one, unless thay did the most accurate of DNA testing,and that prob costs a bit I would imagine, can say how much greyhound there is in any of our non-ped whippets? And..........previously to whenever the scratch was evolved this was not as much of an issue as it is today, how else can we reduce the amount of greyhound stock in the dogs we are racing now then? Because although you seem to advocate running non-peds with greyhounds, which for me is a rather strange suggestion for someone with the 'knowledge' that appears so important to have in order for a point to be seen as valid, the rest of the opinion seems against it.

Perhaps to limit the opportunity to not breed back to a greyhound in specific circumstances might work. What evidence has anyone got that it wont work? Cos there doesnt seem to have been any reduction in this over the last few years to take any evidence from.If it is such a lottery as to whether your dog will have chromosomes from a grew or a whippet, are the chances of having a litter with the majority of dogs being predominately greyhound reduced if the lines are bred away from a full greyhound?

Perhaps there is a need to stop being so far up our own ars*s in thinking that there is only one way of doing things in scratch racing, because people who might judge themselves as being 'knowledgeable' and able to recollect the history of non-ped racing clearly haven't been able to rectify a problem that was clearly identified some time ago..................which possibly excludes those who have just started with big dogs, and are presumed less 'knowledgeable'.

chris.