Idea's What Could Be Done

[mutley]

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thats what i meant tony lol spot on :thumbsup:

 

[ahorsnall]

why not stick with 3 weight classes 40lb 48lb and no limit but have no supreme as this is were the trouble starts of the unfair advantage the larger dog has on the bends?

 

[mutley]

exsactly chris that when the trouble all stems from :thumbsup:

 

[Tony Taylor]

:- "
"I appears to me the people wanting change have no knowledge of how the current non ped type was originaly formed, no knowledge of the history of whippet racing, no knowledge of basic genetics, no understanding of the ramification of closing the gene pool on the current type and misunderstand what the result of effectively ruining scratch racing will have on the membership levels and financial status of the whippet racing bodies."

Tony i won't spit out my dummy or stop coming on k9 but i do think statements that people entering into certain debates have no knowledge of the historyof  whippet racing, genetics etc. could be a bit of a low blow, as having been in whippet racing since birth and my parents being in whippet racing since the 1950's and showing kc whippets and beginning their racing in the 'pedigree' kc registered section it's a bit of a sweeping statement - oh yes and as a family have also raced greyhounds too 

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I'm fairly sure whippet racing started before the 1950s and i'm equally fairly sure that KC dogs have little to do with the sport of whippet racing as debated here. You might feel it's a sweeping statement and if so by all means debate any of the individual points rather than try to impress me with your CV.

 

[rob67]

The simple solution for all those not wanting any ghd in their breeding or not wanting to run with the bigger ghd cross dogs is buy a KC registered pedigree whippet. I believe they have their own race events where only dogs of guarrenteed pure parentage can run. You might want to consider what closing the gene pool has done to the KC whippet though.
I personaly don't want to run little dogs and I suspect many scratch racers feel the same way. If the type of dog I want to run isn't accommadated by the BWRA or NNWRF then I won't run with those organisations. I could always go back lurcher racing. Any scratch racing titles given out by organisations with a restricted entry will be worthless since the winning dog won't be the fastest dog in the country anymore - that accolade will belong to the top racing "lurcher". No doubt, rather like the peds, we'll end up with a situation where the champ dogs won't race against lurchers to save them the embarrasment of being beaten.

I appears to me the people wanting change have no knowledge of how the current non ped type was originaly formed, no knowledge of the history of whippet racing, no knowledge of basic genetics, no understanding of the ramification of closing the gene pool on the current type and misunderstand what the result of effectively ruining scratch racing will have on the membership levels and financial status of the whippet racing bodies.

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MY THOUGHTS ENTIRELY GARY :thumbsup:

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I guess some people might say that any thoughts on the matter, however knowledgeable, are better than sticking with an old way of doing things that has proved itself to be ineffective in managing the issues thus far. As long as you have breeders that state they will do whatever they want and stuff everyone else, then we are all fighting a losing battle.

I wasn't aware that the suggestion had been made to close the gene pool entirely......and, as someone who is a bit of a thicko when it comes to gene pools, I thought that over the past few years the gene pool has been considerably extended in the scratch racing, due to breeding with greyhounds, so how will the proposed reductions have such a drastic effect?

I'm curious how such a dramatic downturn in the financial staus of both organisations might result from the genuine concern of those racing in the scratch fields to want to make the racing safer and fairer?I agree knee jerk reactions are dangerous and might do more harm than good, but there is nothing wrong in considering doing things differently in order to safeguard the dogs and the sport.

chris

 

[mutley]

the easiest way of making it safer Chris is do away with supreme scratch all dogs in there own classes

 

[marielou]

Well said Chris, Im always concerned when people try to shut down healthy debate with the old blind you with science ploy.

 

[Tony Taylor]

why not stick with 3 weight classes 40lb 48lb and no limit but have no supreme as this is were the trouble starts of the unfair advantage the larger dog has on the bends?

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or run a yd per weight class handicap for supreme on the bends ( and straights for that matter)

 

[gary farmer]

why not stick with 3 weight classes 40lb 48lb and no limit but have no supreme as this is were the trouble starts of the unfair advantage the larger dog has on the bends?

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MR BAILEY HAS BEEN SAYING THAT SINE IT WAS INTRODUCED

 

[milly]

why not stick with 3 weight classes 40lb 48lb and no limit but have no supreme as this is were the trouble starts of the unfair advantage the larger dog has on the bends?

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or run a yd per weight class handicap for supreme on the bends ( and straights for that matter)

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Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler

Albert Einstein o

 

[rob67]

the easiest way of making it safer Chris  is do away with supreme scratch all dogs in there own classes

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I guess my point might be gary that if i had a 49lber it might potentially, in the current weight categories, have to run in a heat with a 60lb+ dog, not just in a supreme run off, and thats where my concerns for safety are...............or am I missing something? (It's late and my brains nearly conked out )

chris

 

[mutley]

thats where the word no limit comes to mind chris

 

[mutley]

its safer of levels than yard pounders chris :- " for instance blue goblin 16 pound running of for supreme with a 35 or 32 pounder twice her weight coming from behind at the knock off ohhh we had some injuries

 

[Tony Taylor]

The simple solution for all those not wanting any ghd in their breeding or not wanting to run with the bigger ghd cross dogs is buy a KC registered pedigree whippet. I believe they have their own race events where only dogs of guarrenteed pure parentage can run. You might want to consider what closing the gene pool has done to the KC whippet though.
I personaly don't want to run little dogs and I suspect many scratch racers feel the same way. If the type of dog I want to run isn't accommadated by the BWRA or NNWRF then I won't run with those organisations. I could always go back lurcher racing. Any scratch racing titles given out by organisations with a restricted entry will be worthless since the winning dog won't be the fastest dog in the country anymore - that accolade will belong to the top racing "lurcher". No doubt, rather like the peds, we'll end up with a situation where the champ dogs won't race against lurchers to save them the embarrasment of being beaten.

I appears to me the people wanting change have no knowledge of how the current non ped type was originaly formed, no knowledge of the history of whippet racing, no knowledge of basic genetics, no understanding of the ramification of closing the gene pool on the current type and misunderstand what the result of effectively ruining scratch racing will have on the membership levels and financial status of the whippet racing bodies.

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MY THOUGHTS ENTIRELY GARY :thumbsup:

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I guess some people might say that any thoughts on the matter, however knowledgeable, are better than sticking with an old way of doing things that has proved itself to be ineffective in managing the issues thus far. As long as you have breeders that state they will do whatever they want and stuff everyone else, then we are all fighting a losing battle.

I wasn't aware that the suggestion had been made to close the gene pool entirely......and, as someone who is a bit of a thicko when it comes to gene pools, I thought that over the past few years the gene pool has been considerably extended in the scratch racing, due to breeding with greyhounds, so how will the proposed reductions have such a drastic effect?

I'm curious how such a dramatic downturn in the financial staus of both organisations might result from the genuine concern of those racing in the scratch fields to want to make the racing safer and fairer?I agree knee jerk reactions are dangerous and might do more harm than good, but there is nothing wrong in considering doing things differently in order to safeguard the dogs and the sport.

chris

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What are the issues exactly?

The problem is that almost any proposed rules to limit the creation of the ghd crosses that seem to be the problem for some people won't be effective without curtailing the essential ghd blood that underpins the non ped whippet type. People won't breed dogs they can't race and limits on breeding aren't going to be effective if you allow parent unkown "lurchers" to be registered.

The BWRA lost money last year. I understand the NNWRF isn't in any sort of financial trouble but it doesn't have an enormous fiancial cushion either. A downturn in attendances, say because of increased fuel costs, plus areduction in scratch racers attending and things might look a little less rosy.

How exactly are these proposed changes going to safeguard either the sport or the dogs safety? All the dogs in the no limit are big and simply reducing the number of times you can visit the ghd won't ensure they get smaller. Of course reducing the numbers running will reduce the number of accidents. Accidents in the scratch are no more frequent than in the handicap as far as I can see.

 

[rob67]

Nobody on this forum can tell me a 60lb dog is a whippet....

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What's Deneside Belle then ? If he isn't a whippet then what is Mai-zee-mu ? Since they are litter brother and sister it would be odd for one to be a whippet and the other not.

A 3 generation limit on the ghd won't work because

a) people will lie

b)mate Deneside Belle to Our Ebby and you still have a "half" cross but what are the chances of them being small? Mate brother to sister from this litter or any big half cross and then you'd be allowed back to the ghd. Geneticaly you're still as near as dammit to a full ghd as the 7/8ths and 15/16ths people seem to object to.

Why do people want to exclude the super saturated ghd crosses anyway/ The only people it affects are the no limit scratch racers. The breeding doesn't affect the handicap or smaller scratch classes in any case since it's highly unlikely anyone would consider them for breeding other than no limit dogs.

If you think the non ped type can do without ghd blood you're very much mistaken. There are very few handicap dogs that can go back 5 generations without a ghd in the breeding. If you total up the total known ghd blood it's more than you might imagine and that's ignoring the fact that the ghd is the basis of the breed in the first place.

The smaller whippet is not a true breeding type like peds are. They are a ghd base whose phenotype or body shape is altered by a very small number of genes. The more of these aberrant genes the dog has the smaller it is. Continually breeding 18lbs together wont produce a whippet that can match an 18lb bred down from a near ghd ancestor. Without the ghd breeding the non ped type will end up worse than the peds in no time at all and would easily be beaten by a "lurcher" with ghd ancestory.

The easiest way to prevent the none problem of continually breeding to the ghd is to allow fullghd in the no limit having the extra scratch classes as the NNWRF has as the removes the point of breeding such crosses in the first place.

There's no point in saying the no limit is for whippets if you're going to say a 60lb dog isn't a whippet in any case.

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Can I ask Tony, cos you seem to understand genetics, if you did breed the likes of deneside belle to our ebby, would the pups, even if they were different weights, have the same amount of greyhound in their breeding? And would that be advantageous over a non-ped racing in the same weight category? Cos I would imagine you can get greyhounds that are smaller in size traced back in greyhounds lineage, depending on which one's you used.

chris.

 

[ahorsnall]

The simple solution for all those not wanting any ghd in their breeding or not wanting to run with the bigger ghd cross dogs is buy a KC registered pedigree whippet. I believe they have their own race events where only dogs of guarrenteed pure parentage can run. You might want to consider what closing the gene pool has done to the KC whippet though.
I personaly don't want to run little dogs and I suspect many scratch racers feel the same way. If the type of dog I want to run isn't accommadated by the BWRA or NNWRF then I won't run with those organisations. I could always go back lurcher racing. Any scratch racing titles given out by organisations with a restricted entry will be worthless since the winning dog won't be the fastest dog in the country anymore - that accolade will belong to the top racing "lurcher". No doubt, rather like the peds, we'll end up with a situation where the champ dogs won't race against lurchers to save them the embarrasment of being beaten.

I appears to me the people wanting change have no knowledge of how the current non ped type was originaly formed, no knowledge of the history of whippet racing, no knowledge of basic genetics, no understanding of the ramification of closing the gene pool on the current type and misunderstand what the result of effectively ruining scratch racing will have on the membership levels and financial status of the whippet racing bodies.

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MY THOUGHTS ENTIRELY GARY :thumbsup:

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I guess some people might say that any thoughts on the matter, however knowledgeable, are better than sticking with an old way of doing things that has proved itself to be ineffective in managing the issues thus far. As long as you have breeders that state they will do whatever they want and stuff everyone else, then we are all fighting a losing battle.

I wasn't aware that the suggestion had been made to close the gene pool entirely......and, as someone who is a bit of a thicko when it comes to gene pools, I thought that over the past few years the gene pool has been considerably extended in the scratch racing, due to breeding with greyhounds, so how will the proposed reductions have such a drastic effect?

I'm curious how such a dramatic downturn in the financial staus of both organisations might result from the genuine concern of those racing in the scratch fields to want to make the racing safer and fairer?I agree knee jerk reactions are dangerous and might do more harm than good, but there is nothing wrong in considering doing things differently in order to safeguard the dogs and the sport.

chris

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What are the issues exactly?

The problem is that almost any proposed rules to limit the creation of the ghd crosses that seem to be the problem for some people won't be effective without curtailing the essential ghd blood that underpins the non ped whippet type. People won't breed dogs they can't race and limits on breeding aren't going to be effective if you allow parent unkown "lurchers" to be registered.

The BWRA lost money last year. I understand the NNWRF isn't in any sort of financial trouble but it doesn't have an enormous fiancial cushion either. A downturn in attendances, say because of increased fuel costs, plus areduction in scratch racers attending and things might look a little less rosy.

How exactly are these proposed changes going to safeguard either the sport or the dogs safety? All the dogs in the no limit are big and simply reducing the number of times you can visit the ghd won't ensure they get smaller. Of course reducing the numbers running will reduce the number of accidents. Accidents in the scratch are no more frequent than in the handicap as far as I can see.

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tony so you think if ghd was not used they would get bigger lol you might get odd big one but im sure you would find in two generations would drastially reduce :thumbsup:

 

[rob67]

The simple solution for all those not wanting any ghd in their breeding or not wanting to run with the bigger ghd cross dogs is buy a KC registered pedigree whippet. I believe they have their own race events where only dogs of guarrenteed pure parentage can run. You might want to consider what closing the gene pool has done to the KC whippet though.
I personaly don't want to run little dogs and I suspect many scratch racers feel the same way. If the type of dog I want to run isn't accommadated by the BWRA or NNWRF then I won't run with those organisations. I could always go back lurcher racing. Any scratch racing titles given out by organisations with a restricted entry will be worthless since the winning dog won't be the fastest dog in the country anymore - that accolade will belong to the top racing "lurcher". No doubt, rather like the peds, we'll end up with a situation where the champ dogs won't race against lurchers to save them the embarrasment of being beaten.

I appears to me the people wanting change have no knowledge of how the current non ped type was originaly formed, no knowledge of the history of whippet racing, no knowledge of basic genetics, no understanding of the ramification of closing the gene pool on the current type and misunderstand what the result of effectively ruining scratch racing will have on the membership levels and financial status of the whippet racing bodies.

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MY THOUGHTS ENTIRELY GARY :thumbsup:

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I guess some people might say that any thoughts on the matter, however knowledgeable, are better than sticking with an old way of doing things that has proved itself to be ineffective in managing the issues thus far. As long as you have breeders that state they will do whatever they want and stuff everyone else, then we are all fighting a losing battle.

I wasn't aware that the suggestion had been made to close the gene pool entirely......and, as someone who is a bit of a thicko when it comes to gene pools, I thought that over the past few years the gene pool has been considerably extended in the scratch racing, due to breeding with greyhounds, so how will the proposed reductions have such a drastic effect?

I'm curious how such a dramatic downturn in the financial staus of both organisations might result from the genuine concern of those racing in the scratch fields to want to make the racing safer and fairer?I agree knee jerk reactions are dangerous and might do more harm than good, but there is nothing wrong in considering doing things differently in order to safeguard the dogs and the sport.

chris

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What are the issues exactly?

The problem is that almost any proposed rules to limit the creation of the ghd crosses that seem to be the problem for some people won't be effective without curtailing the essential ghd blood that underpins the non ped whippet type. People won't breed dogs they can't race and limits on breeding aren't going to be effective if you allow parent unkown "lurchers" to be registered.

The BWRA lost money last year. I understand the NNWRF isn't in any sort of financial trouble but it doesn't have an enormous fiancial cushion either. A downturn in attendances, say because of increased fuel costs, plus areduction in scratch racers attending and things might look a little less rosy.

How exactly are these proposed changes going to safeguard either the sport or the dogs safety? All the dogs in the no limit are big and simply reducing the number of times you can visit the ghd won't ensure they get smaller. Of course reducing the numbers running will reduce the number of accidents. Accidents in the scratch are no more frequent than in the handicap as far as I can see.

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How did they get bigger in the first place then? Not being knowledgeable about the history of non-ped racing it would be good to understand, and there's not many places to find out about it apart from on here and at the track.

chris

 

[rob67]

thats where the word no limit comes to mind chris

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Be interesting to know when the phrase 'no-limit' was introduced. Was it a while back?

chris

 

[Paws123]

I don't think theres many yearling yard lb solos this year ..maybe with the heaver 29lb to 35lb

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sorry dee i disagree did some research whilst waiting 4 bb 2 come back on and this is woit i found and this is only the fed opens:

vivs quest @ dawdon, vet no limit hellbent ( solo) vet 40lb hellsbitch ( solo) but also yearlings 35lb china white ( solo)

cushti open @ swallownest, yearlings 28lb magic flyer ( solo) yearling scr 4 entries

june steel @ devon, vet no limit hellbent ( solo) 40lb vet dodgy chaser ( solo) yearling 48lb blaze of glory ( solo) but also yearlings 25lb rogi bear ( solo) yearlings 35lb sid young ( solo)

puppy/yearling champs @ old hall, 40lb pup milliebelle ( solo) 48lb pup deneside colin ( solo) but also dog yearling 21lb close harmony ( solo)

kias ora @ kirkaldy, 48lb adult as ya do ( solo) 40lb vet dodgy chaser ( solo) vet no limit hellbent ( solo) yearling no limit pagan prince ( solo) 40lb pup millielbelle ( solo) 48lb pup deneside colin ( solo) this open was the exception where all the yds for pounds yearlings actually raced.

superleague adults 48lb denesdie colin ( solo) no limit adult ragtime blue ( solo)

also 27lb yearlings kentucky ( solo) 31lb yearlings mistake peak ( solo0

so i personally dont think the scratch have that many more solos than some of the yds per pounds. 8 mins till big brother final now lol

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Carole the yearling are only in there for 6 months and pups about 4 months unlike the vet and adult scr

I know what you are saying ... To be honest i was trying to explain if we introduced another class 60lb as mentioned ..that would be an extra 12 classes to cater for ... and i was pointing out the lack of entry's in the puppy, yearling and vet scr classes... this year with the 48lb extra classes theres been alot of increase in our trophy bill...but remember some trophy's are to hand back

When the extra class of 48lb was added ...certain member one been yourself asked if we could make the pups and yearling scr classes the same 40 48 and no limit...this was Scotland 06 if i remember right

Some things got to give before much longer ... the nnwrf also pay out at championships as well as allow £25 a class for trophy's ...we just need to be a bit sensible when some classes are solos or no entry's ... as for yearling heavy weight entry's been low this year all the trophy's have been covered as Chris Cornish donated most of them when she asked us to put yearling on

example

Puppy and yearling champs got heads this year at the cost of £8 each

classes where as follows 3 dog pups, 3 bitch pups / 3 dog yearling's 3 bitch yearling's / no limit pup 48lb pup 40lb

no limit yearling 48lb yearling 40lb yearling ...50% payout other 50% went to wards the trophy's ... 6 pup /yearling scr dogs ... 2 trophy's not needed ..no no limit pup / no 40lb yearling

31 pups and yearling's no 35lb bitch yearling

the entry's here show the deferents ....

Puppy scratch 40lb

R Milliebelle

Puppy Scratch 48lb

R Deneside Colin 1st and Sup puppy scr

Yearling Scratch 48lb

R Curlin

B As Ya Were 1st and Sup Yearling scr

Yearling Scratch No Limit

R M8 1st

B Pagan Prince

Bitch Puppies up to 21lb

R Misstress Rosie 20

B Ones Tikno 19

W Weardale Badger 18 1st and Sup Bitch Puppy

Bitch Pups up to 28lb heat 1

R Three Tops 24

B My Pretty Fast 23 1st

W Ones a Saurus 23

heat 2

R Allerdale Lass 25 1st and class

B Lady tops 24

W Soot a root 22

Bitch pups up to 35lb

R Belle the builder 32 1st

B Trispot 30

Dog pups up to 21lb

R Vivs Twilight 21

Dog pups up to 28lb

R Kentucky 25 1st and Sup over all Puppy

B Fiddles Sinatra 23

W Boybelle 22

Dog pups up to 35lb

R Billy Casper 34

B Escape Route 29 1st

Bitch yearlings up to 21lb

R Staggered 20

B KCJ 20 d/q

W Xotic 20

Bk Spot Black 18 1st and Sup Yearling

O No Angel 16

Bitch yearlings up to 28lb

R Darlo Dart 25

B Mines a double 25 1st

W Darlo Delight 24

Dog yearlings up to 21lb

R Close Harmony 21

Dog yearlings up to 28lb

R Connor's Mist 26 1st

B Maddies Boy 24

Dog yearlings up to 35lb

R Sid Young 31 1st and Sup Dog Yearling

B Watch the spot 29

W Langkwi 29

If the 60lb classes were added what deferents would it of made ..i reckon another 6 spare trophy

the same as vet scr at championships adult

NO LIMIT VET SC

R HELLBENT 1st

48LB VET SC

R BIGLAND BOY 1st

40LB VET SC

R CHUNKIE L

B DODGY CHASER 1st

W BUD

BK BIGLAND VIXEN

O MOONPIE

2 classes no rups

If we had added these few scr classes together i think it would of been more exciting and better racing

I was using these examples because of someone say add another scr class to cater for the heavier no limits...i don't think we should

will watch carefully on the entry's of vet scr at our recent bend champs

But as i have stated this is my opinion

 

[ahorsnall]

ok ill upset some by saying how it is

a true non ped little whippet is the fastest dog of its own weight in the world well a good one is lol

a part bred ghd can be as big as ghd yet if put against pure ghd of class is CRAP so tell me the genetic improvement of that lol