Let's Hear Your Views

[Judy]

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If the selective breeding is so successful, what I want to know is why there are not more champions from the same litter on the race track in the UK?  For if, as Judy's stats show, champs beget champs, why aren't they all, or at least most of the progeny from the same litter, champs?  Because racing involves no arbitrary judgement, it's the best dog on the track on the day.  So it would not be unreasonable to assume that from a litter most of them will be excellent racers.  Indeed, winners of races, if the performance of their parents are used as the base line. 

If selective breeding was not successful then the whippet as a breed (itself the product of selective breeding) would have no speed advantage over any other breed and we might as well race them against Labradors.

The reason that not all the puppies from a litter are champions is because each puppy has a unique combination of the genes it has inherited from its parents. They are not all the same. A dog is not fast because it is a champion but is a champion because it is fast. That does not mean that all dogs that are fast are champions. It also needs to be fit, psychologically suited to racing and trained well. And if it is all those things then a bit of luck comes in handy too. What makes a racing dog successful is partly genetic, partly nurture and partly training so all the puppies in a litter are not equal.

However if you start off with a breeding where the genetic components of speed (or any other particular trait) have been selected for, then the chances of success are significantly increased. Bit like actually buying your lottery ticket except that unlike the lottery, getting that winning combination of genes is not soley up to chance but depends on what you start with ie. the parent's genes.

The question that the answer is "Do most champions (taking the title as an indicator of speed) come from fast parents or from slower ones? To be meaningful you have to compare the figures against the population (in this case pedigree racing whippets in the UK) as a whole.

Very roughly, by my reckoning an average of about 100 - 125 passports are issued every year and each year about 7 dogs become champions, so thats less than 7%. Therefore, if more than 7% of puppies with a champion parent become champions then it would indicate that having a champion parent is a factor in success. Of course what we really mean by a champion parent is a fast parent but there are no statistics available for that.

Right, I've bounced the computer with the database inside it around the room, wrote some stuff down, used a calculator and turned what was left of my brain to jelly and come up with this:-

895 dogs that I have racing names for, were born in the last 10 years. Of those 501 had a racing champion parent and 394 didn't. Of the 895, I've already worked out that 60 (6.7%) became champions. Of the 501 dogs who had a champion parent, 50 became champions (10%). Of the 394 that didn't have a champion parent, 10 became champions (2.54%). Whats more 90 puppies had both parents being racing champions and 26 became champions (17.78%).

I think that means it most definitely helps to have champion/fast parents or that at least it raises the average quality of the litter.

Very rough figures, or rather fairly precise figures taken from rough statistics and I have a funny feeling I'm off topic too :wacko:

 

[BeeJay]

Judy Clear as mud as always to me. :- " What is it about figures that makes my brain shut down. :wacko:

Thank you for clarifying matters Carmel.

 

[gracie]

Right I decided I have to join this I have found it most interesting. I have bred a few whippets and produced a few fair litters the most successful from parents who were not WCRA Champions. As to why not all pups from litters from racing champions do turn into champions themselves this can be for one or two reasons. 1st they might not just have that certain something (the desire to win determination or the ability) have you ever heard of Lindford Christies brother and two not all owners are good trainers. Many a good dog has been ruined by their owner. Yes we sometimes have to take the blame - bad schooling - running dogs when they are not fit etc. Not all fast dogs are champions but if I had to choose I would always want a sire who had determination and the desire to win so it would have to be one which had won Opens, if not Championships.

If all you had to do to get Champions is to put two goods together it would be easy but then lives not like that - you have to seriously look at you bitch and decide is she good enough to breed with and than look for a sire which will counteract any faults your bitch might have. If your bitch does not posses speed or is not genuine even the fastest stud dog may not be able to produce winners for you. There still quite a few dogs around which are not all that closely related especially in the coursing field but you have to be brave and take a chance they have been successful in the past look at Tally O Magic Trick. Gracious, Boss Drum Graceful Chimes etc. Sorry I must get off my hobbyhorse.

 

[Strike Whippets]

if it can't run at the champs, one would have to assume that any progeny would have the same hurdle as well- for at least five generations or 10 years min??

Where did you get this piece of info from ?? as I've been trying to find out if there is a time/generation limit on a pedigree, and I haven't heard of this

Because unless the line which is imported is acceptable to the WCRA, then that line won't be able to run in the Champs

Um yes we know this as this is where these discussions arose from :thumbsup: ........I think that I'd be allowed to enter the Sporting Champs though if my info's correct, and I'd even be able to race her at the open at a unaffiliated club

And if we take Judy's stats, that champs beget Champs, how is this new blood going to be infused into the gene pool? It's not going to have that precious title is it? And so be included as part of a breeding programme.

Well it seems that its going to be impossible to be allowed to passport most/all American imports (something I was told was going to happen :- " ), but just because the WCRA have disallowed her, there is still plenty more things I can do with her and compete with her .........To breed from a pedigree Whippet dosn't need to be okayed by the WCRA ........Still widen the gene pool :thumbsup:

 

[IanGerman]

I'm sorry that Hannah has been upset by what she sees as criticism of her intended future breeding project - I am not sure that what was said was intended as such, I read it as being a debated subject, but maybe there are under-currents that I know nothing of :wacko:

At the risk of stoking your fires again though (!) ...... may I ask how effective you hope this breed program will be TO THE RACING LINES AS A WHOLE?

As I see it even, if you DO get the necessary sanctions to race your import and its progeny under WCRA rules, in order to bring that out-bred blood to a wider community you will need to have a champion, or better yet a litter of them. Because as things stand, pretty much every breeder currently uses the top dogs of their day when choosing a stud dog. And as Judy's rough stats point out - with good reason it would seem.

Now if you DID have a champion, and he/she bred further champion(s) then people would be banging your door down. But if you don't, then the only gene pool affected would be your own, and from what I deduce from your posts it's the wider issue that has prompted your plan. I am NOT knocking your project, just airing an opinion is all - it's what this board is for Whatever happens Hannah, I wish you all the best with it, and hope that for your sake, the WCRA DO allow it to race.

On the subject of racing against continental dogs - and I remember someone saying they wouldn't want their babies barged around by those oversized "foreigners (can't be bothered to scroll back and find it lol) would anyone here be prepared to travel to say Germany with their racing dogs to take part there? Or somewhere else in the EU? I have to admit I'd be tempted - assuming I had something suitable that is!

 

[Scott Frodsham]

On the subject of racing against continental dogs - and I remember someone saying they wouldn't want their babies barged around by those oversized "foreigners (can't be bothered to scroll back and find it lol) would anyone here be prepared to travel to say Germany with their racing dogs to take part there? Or somewhere else in the EU? I have to admit I'd be tempted - assuming I had something suitable that is!

I'd love to see Forest run against Gime and Barney over 350m! :thumbsup:

 

[Strike Whippets]

Im not really upset as in upset, but I have had months of this :unsure:

All I wanted to do was to import a dog that I could race ........I never saw a problem as the show people do it all of the time,......I never realised that it would be so difficult ..........After actually paying money towards an American racing bred bitch, I found out from people that there might be a problem with her pedigree, and friends urged me to submit this pedigree to the WCRA and see if I'd be able to passport her ........The decison came back as a no due to 2 Besaps lines in there and J'Andy Thor being in the 7th generation :wacko: .......So the problem arose ......We'd paid $450.00 for a Whippet that we'd never ever be allowed to open race ......So we pulled out and lost all of the money :'( (serves us right for not knowing that an AKC reg dog that would also be KC reg without any problem, and who the Whippet Club would also just see her as an everyday imported dog .......would obviously be disallowed to open race by the WCRA :wacko: :blink: .....Stupid us :- " ).....So there it all started :blink: ........Then I was given 2 pedigrees that went back to English and American show/coursing breds (one of the lines being behind WCRCh Hammeron), and these were both disallowed due to the breeder ........A case of deformation of character if ever I saw one

may I ask how effective you hope this breed program will be TO THE RACING LINES AS A WHOLE?

Its not going to be as I'll never be allowed to passport any import at this rate .......but I'll be able to produce some great looking dogs that can run :thumbsup: ......The wider issue did prompt my plan, but hey thats life

would anyone here be prepared to travel to say Germany with their racing dogs to take part there? Or somewhere else in the EU? I have to admit I'd be tempted - assuming I had something suitable that is!

Countme in :thumbsup: I think that would be very interesting as well as fun

 

[tlewis]

895 dogs that I have racing names for, were born in the last 10 years. Of those 501 had a racing champion parent and 394 didn't. Of the 895, I've already worked out that 60 (6.7%) became champions. Of the 501 dogs who had a champion parent, 50 became champions (10%). Of the 394 that didn't have a champion parent, 10 became champions (2.54%). Whats more 90 puppies had both parents being racing champions and 26 became champions (17.78%).

Excellent figures!

Your supposition that racing champ. sire to racing champ dam produces a higher percentage of racing champs is born out in the Greyhound racing industry in the US.

A solid grade A bitch bred to a major stakes winning dog is more than likely to produce a winning litter. The variables of course are the rearing and training. I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure the same would hold true for whippets.

If a dog or bitch for breeding racing whippet purposes were to be imported to the UK it would also need to be from good racing lines with a proven record. Unfortunately the WCRA have made that virtually impossible as far as racing with their organization is concerned.

 

[John E Greenwood]

Very interesting, Judy........thanks for those figures...beats speculation, any day :cheers:

In the dairy industry, it is accepted that desirable characteristics are not always transmitted to the next generation....Bulls are FIRST slected upon their pedigree, and then have to undergo a proving program...They sire a number of daughters (usually 30 or 40) and these are evaluated by comparison with contemperaries, to find out whther their sires are transmiting better than average conformation, and or production characteristics....Bulls vary in their ability to transmit desirable characteristics.......So, as breeders, we should be looking for a champion which is PROVEN to beget champions, Carmel, NOT just any champion...they won't all produce what we are looking for....

EEEeerrmm a jack russel x collie WON'T produce a racing champ., though, will it, Carmel??????????

 

[Mark Roberts]

EEEeerrmm a jack russel x collie WON'T produce a racing champ

Bugger so it was no use me buying the JRT then

 

[Strike Whippets]

EEEeerrmm a jack russel x collie WON'T produce a racing champ

Would't this be classed as a non ped though ?? (w00t)

Bugger so it was no use me buying the JRT then 

You'd better cancel my order then Mark as i think the WCRA might notice now :- "

 

[Merril]

.So the problem arose ......We'd paid $450.00 for a Whippet that we'd never ever be allowed to open race ......So we pulled out and lost all of the money (serves us right for not knowing that an AKC reg dog that would also be KC reg without any problem
OK, maybe I'm missing something here, but why did you lose all the money for pulling out of the purchase?

I have had many folks change their minds, pull out of buying a pup, etc and I never kept their money - not even part of it. Things change. Was the $450.00 a deposit? Yikes, that would be an expensive pup.

Merril

 

[Strike Whippets]

Because the pup had had her rabies jab and the breeder had gone ahead and brought the transportation box early :unsure: .......So we got told that we had all broken about even with the food and everything :unsure: .......The pup was $500 to buy btw

 

[IanGerman]

That's interesting Hannah - although I'm sure you have another word for it.

And in a way it explains some of the WCRA's rulings. I don't know the whole of the Bee Saps story, but the way I heard it was that some English guy (presumably this Thor person you mention) passed off non ped whippet breeding as KC registered when he moved to the States. Like I said - my knowledge of these events is scant so flame me if I'm wrong!.

But if that IS the case then it must have caused immense consternation in AKC/Racing society. And would here too. If Bee Saps had 2 lines in the pedigree then it is understandable, although I find the fact of the breeder himself being cause for a banning rather more questionable.

Actually, I'd be amazed if that sort of thing HASN'T happened here before now but never come to light. It is a very easy scam to perpetrate (so long as no one suspects and calls for DNA testing - which isn't mandatory in our sport) and if the breeder has no particular scruples, he would see it as vindication when/if he produced winning offspring. Jeez it sends shivers down the spine just thinking about the damage that would occur if information about rogue breeding were to come to light in OUR small, tightly knit breeding lines - it could virtually wipe out the sport

Well thats enough doom and gloom for now - after you with the razor blades please!

 

[Strike Whippets]

The breeder of Besaps was David Lytham (Andy Thor was a dog :lol: ) .......Interesting isn't the first word that sprung to mind ......And I do understand the fact that a dog banned by the WCRA is a banned dog, but to ban a breeder just because an organisation in America has a personal vendeta against him ......And to submit TWO non Besap completely "squeaky clean" pedigrees that are also disallowed, just proved to me that it is going to be damn near impossible to have an approved import .......Just for the record the Besaps line was banned on looks alone as DNA wasn't even used for them back then ....So as far as I can tell they were banned as they didn't all look the same ........but please tell me how many litters do look alike ......My one bitch is out of a litter that ALL look different, but out of the 4 girls one has become a Sporting and WCRCh in her first year or racing.......and the other 2 though slower to mature look really impressive ......but stand all 4 girls together, you'd only put 2 of them as related, and would disregard the other 2 as to ANY relation at all ....Yet they are definatly line bred through and through ........

As for the WCRA carrying on the ban on from the CWA in America ........then lets all hope that they remember that if they up hold Tony Lewis's ban by the CWA, then lets hope they up hold this ban correctly and ban ALL of the dogs bred and owned by Tony (as according to the CWA)......this includes Melborn Redcent WCRCh Hammerons GGG grandfather (owned by Tony ) but I guess this will be over looked :- "

I must admit that i do believe in random drugs testing in ped racing and DNA testing should also be acceptable .....(This is how I win friends and influence people BTW :lol: (w00t) )

A not bitter or twisted Hannah in any way (w00t) :- "

 

[BeeJay]

>And in a way it explains some of the WCRA's rulings. I don't know the whole of the Bee Saps story, but the way I heard it was that some English guy (presumably this Thor person you mention) passed off non ped whippet breeding as KC registered when he moved to the States. Like I said - my knowledge of these events is scant so flame me if I'm wrong!.

Andy Thor is a non-KC registered racing whippet Ian. Well saves Hannah calling him John Thaw I suppose. :thumbsup: He went to France.

As for the rest it's rather confused but I don't think that you've got this quite right. This is my understanding of the matter. The Besaps affix was owned by Mr D Lytham. Who didn't move to the US (or did he?) Some of his dogs were imported to Canada I think and raced there and in the US. They were accepted as pedigree whippets as they were never de-registered in the UK by our KC. Therefore they were pedigree whippets as far as the AKC was concerned.

Meanwhile Tony (Lyth whippets) was a racing person and breeder over here, one of his stud dogs Malbon Redcent is behind Hammeron btw. He left these sunny shores for the wilds of the US and the extremely scenic coursing and of course like any self respecting whippet owner took his dogs with him. Where upon both his UK dogs and the UK bred Canadian imports went racing over there and did rather well and thus were bred from. The rest is history.

Except to say that successful US racing dogs have been exported to Europe and their blood is now mixed with Andy Thor's descendants. Hence the issue about European racing bloodlines as well.

However ALL of these whippets are registered as KC registered in their country of origin and thus would be KC registered whippets over here. No matter what anyone thinks or has to say about their breeding. I hope that I've got this correct.

 

[June Jonigk]

Gosh! This has gotten very interesting :blink: and mind-boggling stuff.

Just wanted to add a thought to the "easy to sneak a cross bred into the peds" issue - If anyone thinks of doing it -beware! Judy is very hot, and spot on with whippet colour inheritance. Unless you said you'd mated a bitch to a dog which was the same colour, and had parents of the same colour as the one actually used, I think Judy would pick it up. As you might all realise, Judy is very interested in all aspects of breeding, and colour breeding - and is the only person I know who can tell you what percentage of which colour you can expect from a litter, and turn out to be right! One of the reasons that she makes an excellent Seconder for WCRA passport issue. I don't actually believe it is that easy - or am I being naive? :huggles:

What do you reckon Judy - d'ya think you'd spot 'em?

 

[tlewis]

Except to say that successful US racing dogs have been exported to Europe and their blood is now mixed with Andy Thor's descendants. Hence the issue about European racing bloodlines as well.

It's also true that descendants of Andy Thor have been imported into the USA, mostly through a dog called John Henry Von Rhuen Meer and are now well established on the racing scene. More European dogs have come into the States in recent years with various degrees of success. I'm not exactly sure how they are all bred but I'd bet they nearly all go back to Andy Thor.

What was Andy Thors breeding anyway? Wasn't he by Wishy Was?

 

[Mark Roberts]

June,

Theres only 1 person for sure knows the breeding of any pups they breed and thats the breeder, if a breeder owns both the claimed sire & dam of a litter bred then wouldn't it be easy for them to nip a few hundred miles and use a non ped on the quiet but claim there dog was the sire!.

 

[Judy]

Hannah - I don't think the problem was that the pups in the besap litter didn't look like each other so much as that some people didn't think they looked like whippets.

Umm June, what can I say :b I'm not quite that good though. I could tell you if it was impossible to get a certain colour but, for instance, if somebody substituted one fawn parent for another fawn parent, the same colours would come out regardless of the grandparents colours or anything else. The only way to tell would be DNA testing.

I believe Cockeymoor Flyer was banned because he was a black dog from a brindle and a fawn parent, which you can't get.