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[Strike Whippets]

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Think of poor Smurf.

:unsure: .....Why ??........He likes his life just the way it is and he enjoys......Work, overtime, cooking and cleaning :lol:

 

[Judy]

83% of whippets with both champion parents fail to become champs.90% of whippets with one champion parent fail to become champs.

97.5% of whippets with neither champion parent fail to become champs.

:thumbsup: the figure gets larger when you use slower dogs.

I have stated in the past that some out breeding would probably help to rule out the crypto/mono problem.

Continued heavy inbreeding can cause a decrease in fertility but I can't find anywhere where it says that it causes cryptorchidism. The genes for it are passed on by those who possess them regardless of wether they are related to thier mates or not. Inbreeding will only make it worse if a dog is inbred to ancestors who already have the problem but it is not created by inbreeding/line breeding as such. The depression in vigour and fertility cause by inbreeding is not because the dogs are crytorchid although cryptorchids are less fertile than "normals" because they produce less sperm.

I personally thought that the mono/cryptorchid dogs were only allowed to race after being "done".......(someone correct me if I'm wrong) .......which would take them out of the gene pool .....unlike our lot 

Good point Hannah. It would take them out of the gene pool which would help. I read somewhere recently that taking cryptorchids out of the gene pool would reduce the incidence of it by 12.5%. Unfortunately it obviously wouldn't eliminate it though because of the other close relatives still left in it.

The reason I asked Terry if he had any figures was because he said with reference to the american racebreds that there was "little incidence of crypto/mono problems". It just sounds to me a bit like one of those things that people just say without really knowing if it is true or not. Sadly only figures can really back it up. If we don't know the true incidence of it here or there, how would we really know?

Plus I've heard from a few breeders in America that this is really isn't a problem in the racing lines 

But I am sure you would hear the same thing from a lot of people here.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

IN MY OPINION THERE IS NO POINT ENTERING COMPETITIONS UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO TRY AND WIN......

this is my first season trying to attend more than just 1 or 2 opens......a bit more hand shaking and congratulating the winners wouldn't go amiss.......sportsmanship and courtesy......it's only a few dogs running round a field, at the end of the day, whether it's the W.C.R.A. or a fun day, people should be capable of behaving with dignity and humour....J.M.H.O.

The lines above were written by you way back in August John. If you get the much vaunted will to win & it's associated ego trips you get whingers, rumour mongers, & all the other manifestations of bad losing. You don't get one without the other in my experience. As I've said before I can't get that exited about watching dogs run. It's a bit like watching a bluey, entertaining enough but you're not exactly in there doing it with 'em.

Just out of interest how much race line breeding is there in Pipers progeny?

Terry Smith

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

OOOPs!!! Meant to hit preview first. Hard day on the dog poo machine's got to me.

Was going to add that the WCRA like any other sporting association is self appointed. It has no god given right to control Ped whippet racing neither has it any state backing. There are dozens of ped whippets managing to race without the care of the WCRA. In fact I see the Sporting Champs are still a fixture on the ped open calender. This outfit originally set itself up as a rival to the WCRA. Get enough people together & you could get a whole new set of rules controlling ped racing.

Terry Smith

 

[John E Greenwood]

There is no line breeding in Pipers' pups YET, Terry......but it's planned 8) ....I don't see any problem with standing by both of my statements which you have quoted above :unsure: ........I think Piper and Sunshine provided a certain amount of heterosis, but you can only do that once...(Rose and Hammeron, Mark?). After you've done it once, you have to decide which way you are going...Sunshine is from a very deep, well proven and numerous line of racing dogs, a racing champ cousin or second cousin won't be hard to find for Twister. :thumbsup:

Judy.... The likelyhood of any recessive gene ( I presume that's what mono and cryptorchidism are?), being demonstrated,increases with homozygosity, ie., line or in breeding....I'm sure that I can dig a reference out for that if you want one.

 

[Mark Roberts]

  heterosis ~ also called  hybrid vigour  the increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents. Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different pure-bred lines that have certain desirable traits. The first-generation offspring generally show, in greater measure, the desired characteristics of both parents.

I took the above from Encyclopedia Britanica.

Rose & Hammeron went very well together, i've always gone for total outcrosses but in the future I will be going for a line bred mating..

this is my first season trying to attend more than just 1 or 2 opens......a bit more hand shaking and congratulating the winners wouldn't go amiss.......sportsmanship and courtesy......it's only a few dogs running round a field, at the end of the day, whether it's the W.C.R.A. or a fun day, people should be capable of behaving with dignity and humour

I must say from what i've seen of John this year at Opens/Champs he does exactly what he said should happen in this post! WIN or LOOSE he congratulats the other owners and several times I have seen him offer his hand to the winners.

 

[Judy]

Yes, I agree with Mark - John is always very sporting. Photo Finish has done very well this year but John has always come over as being very modest about him. I don't think Terry meant John though. I thought he was speaking generally. To be honest, I think most people are very sporting.... or at least they try to be

Judy.... The likelyhood of any recessive gene ( I presume that's what mono and cryptorchidism are?), being demonstrated,increases with homozygosity, ie., line or in breeding....I'm sure that I can dig a reference out for that if you want one.

Yes I know that recessive genes are more likely to come to the fore with lin/inbreeding but they have to be there in the first place. I know that you know that too John, I was just making the point that they are not created by line breeding. Line/inbreeding does decrease fertility per se but in other ways such as lower sperm count or less motility.

As far as I can find out, the thinking these days is that it is not caused by simple recessive genes but is a polygenetic, additive threshold character so the more positive genes a dog or bitch has for the character, the more it will pass on to its puppies. If the puppy aquires over a certain number of the positive genes from its parents, and is a dog obviously, then it will be affected. If a brother has a slightly lower number then it won't be cryptorchid but will still be a higher risk when bred from, as will be the sisters. If you removed all the brothers, sisters, parents, uncles, aunts etc. from the gene pool though, you might decrease the gene pool too much.

 

[tlewis]

The reason I asked Terry if he had any figures was because he said with reference to the american racebreds  that there was "little incidence of crypto/mono problems". It just sounds to me a bit like one of those things that people just say without really knowing if it is true or not. Sadly only figures can really back it up. If we don't know the true incidence of it here or there, how would we really know?

I don't know if the incidence of mono/crypto in the US is more or less in racing lines than in the UK. I don't beleive it's much of a problem, but it's difficult to tell. Few breeders broadcast the pups with faults.

I can say that personally I haven't had much of a problem except when breeding into a particular line. I now know what to avoid. It is a major problem in pure show lines and I am reliably informed that few litters are born without at least one. There is a ready pet market so these pups are neutered and find good pet homes.

Just to clear up one point NOTRA (bends) and NAWRA (Straight) allow mono /cryptorchid dogs to compete. WRA does not unless they are first neutered. The neutering of males does very little to eradicate M/C orchids because IMO the bitch is the carrier and that of course masks the problem.

As I see it the primary advantage to the UK racing Whippet in importing GOOD stock from the US would be to increase speed. Isn't that what we are all after?

 

[John E Greenwood]

Tony............I, for one, have yet to hear or see any evidence that they are faster :wub:

You have told us that a 38lb dog is faster than our 30lb dogs....to be honest, that is NIETHER a surprise, NOR relevent. (w00t)

 

[Judy]

Hi Tony - I don't know the incidence of cryptorchids here, in show or racing stock either but I know its not nearly as many as one a litter in racing litters - that seems awfully high (w00t)

Incidently, all the dog geneticists agree that the genes for cryptorchidism are definitely carried by both males and females.

Importing good stock would be good for any population of dogs surely. I think that is where Hannah is coming from and what she hopes to do if she can find one acceptable to the WCRA. :thumbsup: To have max. effect though, I can't help thinking it might be better to import a dog than a bitch.

 

[tlewis]

Tony............I, for one, have yet to hear or see any evidence that they are faster :wub:

AND there is no way for me to prove to you one way or the other if your racing association won't let them run.

BTW there are plenty of dogs and bitches around 32 lbs. Just as fast and maybe faster than the 38 lb dog I quoted at 8.5 for 150 yds. I can quote you times 'till the cows come home, but the only proof is when dogs run head to head.

There is nothing stopping any UK racer from running in the USA and we have had a few UK dogs try their hand. Recent imports have not done well. You could hop on a plane with your dog and be here in time for racing Saturday morning!

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Tony............I, for one, have yet to hear or see any evidence that they are faster :wub:

AND there is no way for me to prove to you one way or the other if your racing association won't let them run.

BTW there are plenty of dogs and bitches around 32 lbs. Just as fast and maybe faster than the 38 lb dog I quoted at 8.5 for 150 yds. I can quote you times 'till the cows come home, but the only proof is when dogs run head to head.

Don't think it's ever going to happen Tony. The "Acceptable 5 gen pedigree" ruling is elastic & open ended. In practice if their are "suspect" lines on the 6th, 7th or even further back lines dogs will be ineligible. I'm also waiting for the excuse that has been trotted out before in other threads that times aren't really relevant as times vary greatly due to track, weather conditions etc.

The fastest Yank & European dogs won't get passed for WCRA racing simple as that. Even if they race at the few clubs that would let them (like ours) they would never get a proper shop window & go unused. BTW how fast is the 28lber you mentioned earlier?

Terry Smith

 

[Judy]

the only proof is when dogs run head to head.
There is nothing stopping any UK racer from running in the USA and we have had a few UK dogs try their hand.  Recent imports have not done well.  You could hop on a plane with your dog and be here in time for racing Saturday morning!

I suspect that the UK dogs would get beaten off scratch in the USA although the recent imports you talk of Tony have not been what I would call race bred so its hardly fair to compare them as they would almost certainly have been slow here too.

It would be interesting to see how an american race bred would do here over our distances and weight handicapped as our dogs are. Fact is the two types have been bred for different kinds of racing systems.

As you said, we can speculate till the cows come home but there's only one way to find out. Whatever the outcome though, we'll all still like our own dogs the best

Unfortunately, although someone could take their dog to america and be there by Saturday morning, they couldn't get back again unless they had already got their pet passport which takes quite a while and a not inconsiderable sum to get. Might be easier the other way round, not sure.

 

[John E Greenwood]

There is nothing stopping any UK racer from running in the USA and we have had a few UK dogs try their hand.  Recent imports have not done well.  You could hop on a plane with your dog and be here in time for racing Saturday morning!

Tony............as a humble farm worker, I'm afraid there are financial constraints which prevent me from jetting around the globe :b ....much as I would love to 8)

I am a member of the same club as Terry (Gin Pit).....and I'd certainly be there with my dog, if you, or any other U.S. racer brought a dog over to dear old Blighty.....Or even if Hannah cared to come up with her imported bitch :thumbsup: ....And I'll buy you a pint in the club afterwards :cheers:

Terry......I don't think there are enough dogs or racers to set up a "whole new" set of rules etc........Chances are, if you object strongly to the idea of complying with one set of rules, it wouldn't be long before you fell out with the new organization (w00t) .......Unfortunately, if your going to play a game, there will be rules.....they are the same for everyone.

 

[Mark Roberts]

And I'll buy you a pint in the club afterwards

Steady John :sweating:

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Terry......I don't think there are enough dogs or racers to set up a "whole new" set of rules etc.....

There have been two or three occasions when WCRA racing has nearly come apart. In fact the happy chappies got pretty ugly when racing was suspended during the F&M crises a few years ago. As I pointed out there is still an organisation handing "Championships" out today that came up on the last big upsurge of discontent. This was before you owned a whippet & became an expert.

...Chances are, if you object strongly to the idea of complying with one set of rules, it wouldn't be long before you fell out with the new

Is the "you" a generalisation or another "pop" from you & your cronies?

organization .......Unfortunately, if your going to play a game, there will be rules.....they are the same for everyone.

Have you ever seen me try to bend any rules ? Have you seen me try to put my needs before anyone elses? Have you ever found me to be unco-operative on any occasion? Does my personal agenda/ambitions influence my dealing with you or anybody else? My beef with the WCRA is the same now as it always has been. Ped racing should be just that. If a dog has a bona fide pedigree it should be eligible to race. Correct me if I'm wrong but the dog you sent to Germany is oversize by their standards is it not? However there is still a nich in their racing set-up that allows it to compete. The same (as far as I can gather) applies to all continental racing. Yet in this country we apply exclusions whilst at the same time allowing dogs with an host of faults to race & to be bred on just so long as they are small enough & light enough.

Last post on this. All this pedantic "rules is rules" jobsworth crap is pissing me off.

Terry Smith

 

[John E Greenwood]

Well alright..........I maybe did get carried away....1/2 and a packet of crisps :b

 

[John E Greenwood]

Terry.....missed your post....soz....I wasn't aware that I had any cronies. I thought you knew me well enough to know that I wouldn't have a "pop" at an experienced breeder like your august self......See you around...

 

[tlewis]

I suspect that the UK dogs would get beaten off scratch in the USA although the recent imports you talk of Tony have not been what I would call race bred so its hardly fair to compare them as they would almost certainly have been slow here too.

Here are some times from a small meet in California to-day. Although small the top dogs in the meet would be competitive anywhere in the USA. The eventual winner, Oski is at a guess, between 30-35 lbs.

The distance was 300 yds in a "U" shaped track on grass.

Race by Race Results:

Prog.1

1. (18.05) Venus, Miss Shelby, China, Scout

2. (18.02) Sean, Rogie, Pecabo

3. (18.58) Cash, Riley, Thumper, Nala

4. (17.41) Cinder, Mushka, Rocky, Waylon

5. (17.31) Oski, Cody, Scarlet, Kaylee

6. (17.32) Diablo, Peja, Dayton, Cooper

Prog. 2

1. (18.36) Kaylee, Pecabo, China, Scout

2. (17.40) Scarlet, Rocky, Thumper

3. (17.27) Mushka, Cody, Cooper, Rogie

4. (17.29) Dayton, Sean, Venus, Cash

5. (17.37) Oski, Cinder, Peja, Diablo (DQ)

Prog. 3

1. (18.52) Thumper, Rogie, China, Scout

2. (17.76) Rocky, Kaylee, Cash, Pecabo

3. (17.20) Mushka, Scarlet, Cody, Venus

4. (16.46) Dayton, Oski, Peja, Cinder

Prog. 4

1. (18.80) Rogie, China, Pecabo, Scout

2. (17.85) Cody, Venus/Kaylee (T), Cash (PS)

3. (No time) Scarlet/Rocky (T), Thumper, Cinder

4. (17.30) Mushka, Oski, Dayton, Peja

 

[Kim]

Hello

I'm new to Whippets ours is 2 years old from Show Lines but very slim and as I understand it not enough bone! When I decided to get a Whippet I had no idea of the differences in type but do now! We love Sophie to bits and it does'nt matter to us too much about stamina as she does not race just chases her ball on a rope lots and lots. I do however like small racing Whippets are their temperaments just as good or is tha a very nieve questions sorry if it is. Sophie is very gentle and loving and very quiet and lives with 2 Papillons and a Sheltie.

Kim