Need Some Breeding Help

[Strike Whippets]

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I always thought that a hernia was from where the mum got carried away ........I helped my friend when her Bouvier gave birth .......The couple who ended up with hernias, were the ones that we couldn't get to, to cut the cord .......

The tendency for undescended testicles is passed on to a dog's offspring and therefore, neutering is the only answer. We don't really know the genetics behind this condition with any degree of certainty. Some believe it is a simple autosomal recessive, others say not. There has been no clear-cut determination of the genetics yet. What is known for sure is that it runs in families. Therefore, these dogs should never be bred - no questions asked. Even if the dog is the International Supreme herding champion. Knowingly breeding this dog would be irresponsible. Dogs that have this condition or produce pups with this condition should be removed from the breeding population. There's just too many healthy and sound excellent dogs that can be bred without having to breed "defective" dogs

I know where your coming from ......BUT .......If we were to close these lines down as any close relative of cryptorcid sufferers WILL also carry this gene ........then I can say that most if not ALL racing lines would need to end, as would coursing AND show lines .........As a mater of fact you have a dog from a breeder who has used cryptorcid dogs at least 4 times ........and with the way the racing line "problem" goes ......keep an eye on your boy at about 7 months old as the 1 could disappear then

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Thankfully MY vet who has now been practising for near on 50 years AND also a breeder himself has had experience of this situation many times.

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I'll just get back under my rock then. :lol:

 

[»Tina«]

woppit, take a look at this topic (click the link), it's in the FAQ section, there's more health issuses there too :thumbsup:

CRYPTO

 

[nina]

I'll just get back under my rock then.  :lol:

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Listen. dont take that the wrong way BUT i have had experience of sooo many vets.

This is not meant as a personally slight, what i am trying to say is there is a difference between a vet & a breeder.

As a breeder you see everything from start to finish, ok you dont have the expertise of a vet BUT a vet doesn't always have the expertise of a breeder.

I am lucky enough to have a vet who is also a breeder of many years & he has admitted many times in his experience things are not always as cut & dried as they appear.

Difference is as a breeder he respects my opinion AND HE KNOWS I KNOW MY DOGS.

I think the majority of vets deal with, not wanting to sound condescending BUT pet people with their first ever dog who haven't a clue whats what.

When you have been breeding many years you have often seen & experienced things that a lot of up & coming vets haven't, it stands to reason.

I think both parties can learn a lot from each other :thumbsup:

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

I think both parties can learn a lot from each other  :thumbsup:

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That's something with which I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[nina]

That's something with which I agree wholeheartedly.

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ANYONE only ever learns by experience, whether you are a vet or a simple layman, BUT combine those experiences & you find you can be a great help to each other :thumbsup:

 

[kris]

for once i agree with nina. (w00t) ive experience EXACTLY the same thing with this bitch and one or two others in my other breed.if i managed to get the pup an cut the cord short before mum tugged and chewed at it the pup would be fine.but if not the pup invarably ended up with a hernia.sorry ilkc but i think sometimes vets are wrong and breeders are right.ive had a few occasions over the years when a vet has bowed to a breeders superior knowledge and experience about certain matters and they were usually right. :thumbsup:

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Hate to say i totally agree with you (joke (w00t) )

Its true tho vets dont see what breeders do.

I had a bitch that i just knew had a closed Pyometra, i'd seen the signs before i knew what is was.

For 5 days i went back to this damn locum vet & he wouldn't have it. Did all kinds of tests even x-rayed her & said no problem.

In the end it took a screaming match & me threatening to go elsewhere before he finally agreed to "open her up" ONLY IF I TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILITY" which i did.

Yes she had a closed Pyo, her uterus was 3 times the size & ready to burst!

He apologised & said "in breeds like this where they carry everything sooo tucked up it is often hard to tell"!

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i know where youre coming from.i had a bullmastiff many years ago.i mated her to the top stud/top champion dog in the breed.the owner of which had bred them for over 40 years and his daddy before him.he told me to watch her when she went into labour as they tend to lie back and pretend its not happening to them. they usually need a pituitrin injection to get things going and get the pups out before anything bad happens as they start in labour then just stop pushing as theyre lazy.anyway said bitch was pregnant and the day came when she went into labour.she started then just stopped as this guy had told me.i rang my vet and told him.he said give her a couple more hours.this went on for ages.eventually he agreed i should bring her in to be examined.he then wanted to open her up and give her a caesarian. (w00t) i refused and asked him to try the injection first.after much arguing and toing and froing he did as i asked.she then produced one large dead puppy.then two live healthy ones.afterwards he did have the grace to apologise and say that the breeder sometimes knew best! :angry: i changed vets not long after this and a couple of other episodes.but i also agree that both vets and breeders have much to offer one another. i just wish that some vets would try to listen more and be more open to what a breeder is saying who has many years experience. :huggles:

 

[nina]

i just wish that  some vets would try to listen more and be more open to what a breeder is saying who has many years experience. :huggles:

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:thumbsup: , you are spot on there, so many times you get spoken to & treated like you are an idiot by some vets until they actually take on board that you have had many years experience with dogs & have seen things possibly they haven't.

I recently took my little IG to my vet she is 15 and a half & starting to go downhill. She started guzzling loads of water & weeing everywhere & has a cough, so off to the vet & i explained to him her age & that possibly her kidneys & heart were failing which obviously there was nothing we could do about BUT if we could try & keep her comfortable & as long as she wasn't in pain & could still enjoy her roast chicken & a potter on the patio until the situation changed then i'd obviously have to rethink. He totally agreed & said ther was no point at her age putting through loads of tests etc, so prescribed some heart & kidney medication & she is still jogging along reasonably well.

My neighbour a week later took her 14 and a half year old little yorkie to her vet, same symptons where by the poor dog was kept in for 24 hours had series after series of blood tests, monitors etc. She has a bill for £368 & was told.....................yep you guessed it his heart & kidneys are failing not a lot they can do & is on the same medication as my girl BUT no only does my neighbour now have a huge bill to contend with, the poor dog spent a totally stressful 24 hours in a vet needlessly when they could have just prescribed the medication.

 

[dessie]

Personally i wouldnt be sure it was genetic - this dog is by a well-used sire who hasnt had this trouble before.

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Why don't you think it is genetic??? How else do you think these sort of things occur??? And it can only be as far as you know that the sire hasn't produced cryptorchid puppies before. You can't possibly know about every single litter he has sired and the outcome!!! It also takes two to tango so the problem could be coming from the dam's side. Or both could be carriers.

I personally wouldn't use a dog that only had one testicle. And if I had a dog that had to have one removed for medical reasons I certainly wouldn't expect the other one to be left!!!

I know someone who, if and when they have a bitch spayed, they get their Vet to leave an ovary or part thereof so that the bitch still cycles. Same sort of difference. Bizarre behaviour IMO!!!

 

[shenace]

I think that if every breeder was totally honest that you would be surprised at how many times their pick puppy has only had one nut! When I was green & first started breeding dogs - my first litter presented me with cleft palates & no & one testicles - I asked both the breeders of the sire & dam if they had every experienced issues & both swore black & blue that they had NEVER had these issues. What a load of crap! In my wisdom of today - there is no doubt that undescended testicles is genetic - my first lines I began with had big challenges with one nuts, I had a litter of 5 boys from a dog I imported & they all presented me with 2 wee balls at the age of 5 wks - the bitch had a silent season (she had never had one of these before & has never had another - I believe it was due to the tablets to hold off a season that caused the muck up) the same dog mated her again - only 2 boys were born - one with no nuts & one with one - go figure - how can 5 boys all have them & the exact same mating (it was as I only had one male) produced such varying results?? I personally wouldn't breed from a dog with one nut - there are enough issues in our breed to contend with without increasing challenges - however - I look at breeding from a show/breeders point of view & am astounded a vet would not totally castrate the animal in the situation at hand. If they keep the other nut for testosterone, why is it not administered in another form, ie homeopathically?? I know this can be done as homeopath's have remedies to try help nuts descend - have never seen success I must admit

 

[Woppit]

but it's easy enough to deal with... it's not like breeding from a dog with mental problems.

 

[»Tina«]

but it's easy enough to deal with... it's not like breeding from a dog with mental problems.

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the point is to erradicate (sp) this genetric trait, what if you bred from your dog and sold the pup's, and 3 of them male pups had crypto, the new owners then phone you up, complaining and wanting some sort of compensation, what would you do?

you could find yourself in court, I suspect this is going to happen very soon, breeders (if they have knowingly bred a dog with this trait) MUST inform the potential buyers IMHO, because it's just a matter of time until they get sued, wouldn't you want to know if your buying faulty goods?

 

[~elizabeth~]

Some believe it is a simple autosomal recessive, others say not. There has been no clear-cut determination of the genetics yet. What is known for sure is that it runs in families. Therefore, these dogs should never be bred - no questions asked.

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I think anyone who breeds dogs should read one of the many books on genetics as they spell out the risks of line breeding and inbreeding with graphic and unpleasant case histories ( e.g. Genetics for Dog Breeders by Frederick B Hutt). Very few genetic conditions are simple, single genes that can be eradicated easily. They are usually caused by the interaction of an unknown number of genes and are usually recessive so just because a dog does not manifest the problem itself does not mean it is not carrying it.

I have been surprised how much extreme inbreeding there is going on in some lines too - I saw a pedigree of a coursing puppy recently that ran father/daughter/son on dog line with original father again as sire, and yes there are cryptorchid dogs around from this line too :- " (I hasten to add it was NOT bred by a k9er)

Specialist greyhound vets don't generally recommend full castration in active racing dogs if it can be avoided.

 

[Woppit]

Yeh i take ur point and ur quite right. So where does this leave my bitch (dam of the dog in question) and the (wellknown and prolific) sire (who i dont own)?

 

[Claire]

I know someone who, if and when they have a bitch spayed, they get their Vet to leave an ovary or part thereof so that the bitch still cycles.  Same sort of difference.  Bizarre behaviour IMO!!!

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I believe this is a widely used practice in Europe. The theory being that the bicth still produces hormones and therefore the weight gain post Spay is "removed" or at least reduced significantly, ( im not sure, I will have to check, it may well reduce incontinance issue also)

 

[ja jumper]

I think that if every breeder was totally honest that you would be surprised at how many times their pick puppy has only had one nut!  When I was green & first started breeding dogs - my first litter presented me with cleft palates & no & one testicles - I asked both the breeders of the sire & dam if they had every experienced issues & both swore black & blue that they had NEVER had these issues.  What a load of crap!  In my wisdom of today - there is no doubt that undescended testicles is genetic - my first lines I began with had big challenges with one nuts, I had a litter of 5 boys from a dog I imported & they all presented me with 2 wee balls at the age of 5 wks - the bitch had a silent season (she had never had one of these before & has never had another - I believe it was due to the tablets to hold off a season that caused the muck up) the same dog mated her again - only 2 boys were born - one with no nuts & one with one - go figure - how can 5 boys all have them & the exact same mating (it was as I only had one male) produced such varying results??  I personally wouldn't breed from a dog with one nut - there are enough issues in our breed to contend with without increasing challenges - however - I look at breeding from a show/breeders point of view & am astounded a vet would not totally castrate the animal in the situation at hand.  If they keep the other nut for testosterone, why is it not administered in another form, ie homeopathically??  I know this can be done as homeopath's have remedies to try help nuts descend - have never seen success I must admit

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i totally agree all you are going to do is cause more problems in the breed later on in life a good breeder should never even consider it it will then rule out whos breeding for health and quality to people who just breed anything because they can and in that case think nothing of such a brillant animal

 

[»Tina«]

Yeh i take ur point and ur quite right. So where does this leave my bitch (dam of the dog in question) and the (wellknown and prolific) sire (who i dont own)?

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well as you don't know which side this came from, dam or sire, or if just one of them have it, I personnally wouldn't breed from either of them again, but thats me.

 

[Woppit]

I like to kee p my dogs as nature intended personally - i'm not one for convenience measures!!

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

I like to kee p my dogs as nature intended personally - i'm not one for convenience measures!!

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who mentioned convenience then?

 

[Woppit]

nobody - but a lot of ppl for example spay bitches to avoid seasons and the percieved probelms that they pose, or cut dogs in the beleif that they will be less aggressive.