Need Some Breeding Help

[Woppit]

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I've been coming into sum heavy flak on a pedigree/showing forum and would like sum help and advice from this saner branch of the dog world!!

I have an entire dog; he is very strong and healthy, but due to chest infections in his first month and generally being a runt he is small.

He had one undescended testicle which had to be reomoved.

should either of these factors cause a problem if i wanted to breed from him?

any help very much appreciated,

Sam

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

I would never ever recommend breeding from a dog with an undescended testicle. This is a congenital fault which, in the wild, would result in suboptimal fertility. To actively breed from an affected dog is against all the principles of natural selection and will only ever serve to weaken a breed, regardless of any other redeeming features the dog may exhibit. There is also a genetic factor here, in that there is a high risk of this dog's progeny having undescended testes. Would you really want to breed a litter which were likely to be abnormal?

As an aside, I am horrified that any vet in their right mind would remove an undescended testicle without removing the other one at the same time. It's completely unethical, and I would never even consider it.

 

[BeeJay]

ILKC. The removal of the undescended testicle is common/usual with peddie racing whippets that have this problem.

Sorry I should add that they don't remove the descended one. :thumbsup: It didn't make that much sense before.

 

[Claire]

I personally would not use a dog at stud that had an undesended testicle. I think its is a genetic fault and therefore would be carried through to the pups.

Hope this helps

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

ILKC.  The removal of the undescended testicle is common/usual with peddie racing whippets that have this problem.
Sorry I should add that they don't remove the descended one. :thumbsup: It didn't make that much sense before.

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I get you :lol:

I just think it's wrong, and I personally would refuse to operate at all if that was the request. I think as a vet it's wrong to be party to the wilful breeding of unsuitable animals. I would liken it to encouraging breeding from a bitch that was aggressive, for example, or any dog with an umbilical hernia.

 

[BeeJay]

It's because the dog needs the testosterone for racing so I've been told. Of course it also means that if the dog is very good then he can also be bred from.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

It's because the dog needs the testosterone for racing so I've been told.  Of course it also means that if the dog is very good then he can also be bred from.

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Hmmmmmmmmm <_<

I think this thread could run and run ... :teehee:

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

the health and welfare of their dog should be the most important thing to a decent loving owner...much more important than whether it can run,hunt or produce babies imo

 

[BeeJay]

I haven't had it happen to me. All of mine have two normally descended ones, so what I've said about the reason is heresay. There must be racing folks on here who know for a fact why they keep the descended one.

 

[Woppit]

I kept it because I prefer them to have that testosterone edge, not to breed - it was an academic question really!

Personally i wouldnt be sure it was genetic - this dog is by a well-used sire who hasnt had this trouble before.

 

[nina]

I just think it's wrong, and I personally would refuse to operate at all if that was the request.  I think as a vet it's wrong to be party to the wilful breeding of unsuitable animals.  I would liken it to encouraging breeding from a bitch that was aggressive, for example, or any dog with an umbilical hernia.

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So..............................what if the umbilical hernia has occured by the dam being over zealous at birth?

Through no fault of the pup, an umbilical hernia has occured due to the bitch, why should this pup when mature whether bitch/dog not be bred from?

I'm only interested to know as this happened to one of my bitches with her first litter, she was frantic, first pup born a bitch she would not let go of for love nor money, chewing furiously at the umbilical cord, swinging the pup about which by the time i got her away & calmed her the above had happened.

The hernia was operated on when old enough & the said bitch produced 2 litters at a later date WITHOUT ONE HERNIA!

I think everything has to be taken in to perspective, but just wondered what your opinion was if presented with a hernia that you were told occured in this instance would you still deter breeding from the animal?

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

I kept it because I prefer them to have that testosterone edge, not to breed - it was an academic question really!
Personally i wouldnt be sure it was genetic - this dog is by a well-used sire who hasnt had this trouble before.

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it is considered by the veterinary profession to be genetic :thumbsup:

 

[Strike Whippets]

There are a few of us on this board who have used a dog with 1 testical ........but considering the AI problems around, and dogs with AI problems/lines being bred on from, you tell me which is worse ??? ........as a matter of fact show me a 100% problem free line in Whippets be it coursing/show or racing bred :thumbsup:

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

quoted...

Dogs that are cryptorchid should always be castrated and the owner should insist that both testicles be removed. Since cryptorchidism is considered to be an inherited trait, cryptorchid dogs should never be used for breeding. Because the retained testicle is 13 times more likely to develop a tumor, it should always be removed.

:thumbsup:

and another...

The tendency for undescended testicles is passed on to a dog's offspring and therefore, neutering is the only answer. We don't really know the genetics behind this condition with any degree of certainty. Some believe it is a simple autosomal recessive, others say not. There has been no clear-cut determination of the genetics yet. What is known for sure is that it runs in families. Therefore, these dogs should never be bred - no questions asked. Even if the dog is the International Supreme herding champion. Knowingly breeding this dog would be irresponsible. Dogs that have this condition or produce pups with this condition should be removed from the breeding population. There's just too many healthy and sound excellent dogs that can be bred without having to breed "defective" dogs

:thumbsup:

 

[kris]

i had a manchester terrier bitch who used to give pups hernias,she would tug at their cords till nothing was left.i didnt get them operated on i used to fix them myself by the old fashioned method that was used to fix them before they used to be operated on.does that mean i shouldnt have bred from her?she produced some champions and cc winners and a lot of them were given hernias by mum but cured before they went to their new homes :- "

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

So..............................what if the umbilical hernia has occured by the dam being over zealous at birth?
...

I think everything has to be taken in to perspective, but just wondered what your opinion was if presented with a hernia that you were told occured in this instance would you still  deter breeding from the animal?

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Yes. Hernias occur when the abdominal muscles do not knit together as the pup develops. The muscles should be knitted at birth except for the tiny space where the umbilical cord exits the body. A bitch licking will frequently cause severe damage to the body wall, and in some cases can lead to evisceration and death of the pup, but will not just cause a gap in the muscle walls. If the bitch had caused enough damage that the muscles had broken down, the pup would also have serious tissue damage and potentially peritonitis. Sadly, these cases rarely survive anyway. It's possible that the pup had a hernia in the first place.

It's entirely possible that the bitch DOES play a part, but my feelings are that there has to be a problem with the muscle wall in the first place. Otherwise how does a bitch damage the muscle but leave the skin intact?!

And in response to Woppit, it's a fact that cryptorchidism is genetic. Like hernias, the fact that it occurs rarely with a particular parent isn't proof that it isn't genetic.

 

[nina]

Yes. Hernias occur when the abdominal muscles do not knit together as the pup develops. The muscles should be knitted at birth except for the tiny space where the umbilical cord exits the body. A bitch licking will frequently cause severe damage to the body wall, and in some cases can lead to evisceration and death of the pup, but will not just cause a gap in the muscle walls. If the bitch had caused enough damage that the muscles had broken down, the pup would also have serious tissue damage and potentially peritonitis. Sadly, these cases rarely survive anyway. It's possible that the pup had a hernia in the first place.
It's entirely possible that the bitch DOES play a part, but my feelings are that there has to be a problem with the muscle wall in the first place. Otherwise how does a bitch damage the muscle but leave the skin intact?!

And in response to Woppit, it's a fact that cryptorchidism is genetic. Like hernias, the fact that it occurs rarely with a particular parent isn't proof that it isn't genetic.

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Well, i have to disagree here cos that is the difference between many breeders & vets. Vets only see something once there is a problem not necessarily how the problem has occured.

My bitch in question had no suggestion of hernia's behind her from either sire or dam & being such a small gene pool & knowing the dogs i know this to be a fact.

I also saw the pup in question born & there was NO hernia! I also saw how the bitch behaved & what happened from there on.

Thankfully MY vet who has now been practising for near on 50 years AND also a breeder himself has had experience of this situation many times.

From the 2 litters this pup went on to produce by different sires no resulting hernia's occurred & this progeny has also been bred on from without producing any hernia's so i guess sometimes you just have to go with the facts.

 

[kris]

for once i agree with nina. (w00t) ive experience EXACTLY the same thing with this bitch and one or two others in my other breed.if i managed to get the pup an cut the cord short before mum tugged and chewed at it the pup would be fine.but if not the pup invarably ended up with a hernia.sorry ilkc but i think sometimes vets are wrong and breeders are right.ive had a few occasions over the years when a vet has bowed to a breeders superior knowledge and experience about certain matters and they were usually right. :thumbsup:

 

[»Tina«]

quoted...Dogs that are cryptorchid should always be castrated and the owner should insist that both testicles be removed. Since cryptorchidism is considered to be an inherited trait, cryptorchid dogs should never be used for breeding. Because the retained testicle is 13 times more likely to develop a tumor, it should always be removed.

:thumbsup:

and another...

The tendency for undescended testicles is passed on to a dog's offspring and therefore, neutering is the only answer. We don't really know the genetics behind this condition with any degree of certainty. Some believe it is a simple autosomal recessive, others say not. There has been no clear-cut determination of the genetics yet. What is known for sure is that it runs in families. Therefore, these dogs should never be bred - no questions asked. Even if the dog is the International Supreme herding champion. Knowingly breeding this dog would be irresponsible. Dogs that have this condition or produce pups with this condition should be removed from the breeding population. There's just too many healthy and sound excellent dogs that can be bred without having to breed "defective" dogs

:thumbsup:

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agree with above 100%, also I believe that if a pup is bred out of a dog with only 1 testical or is known to have crypto in the line used to breed the pup, then potential owners should be told about this trait.

woopit, I would IMO under NO curcumstances breed from your dog, but if you do decide to breed, please inform the buyers of this first, it will save alot of heart ache (and possible court action) in the long run :thumbsup:

 

[nina]

for once i agree with nina. (w00t) ive experience EXACTLY the same thing with this bitch and one or two others in my other breed.if i managed to get the pup an cut the cord short before mum tugged and chewed at it the pup would be fine.but if not the pup invarably ended up with a hernia.sorry ilkc but i think sometimes vets are wrong and breeders are right.ive had a few occasions over the years when a vet has bowed to a breeders superior knowledge and experience about certain matters and they were usually right. :thumbsup:

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Hate to say i totally agree with you (joke (w00t) )

Its true tho vets dont see what breeders do.

I had a bitch that i just knew had a closed Pyometra, i'd seen the signs before i knew what is was.

For 5 days i went back to this damn locum vet & he wouldn't have it. Did all kinds of tests even x-rayed her & said no problem.

In the end it took a screaming match & me threatening to go elsewhere before he finally agreed to "open her up" ONLY IF I TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILITY" which i did.

Yes she had a closed Pyo, her uterus was 3 times the size & ready to burst!

He apologised & said "in breeds like this where they carry everything sooo tucked up it is often hard to tell"!