Noose style lead for small puppy

[Hal]

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Hi all,
Picking up a Westie pup (our first dog) at the end of Jan. Have read that a 'snap around' or 'noose style' lead can be useful in training, with a gentle side flick being like 'tapping on the puppy's shoulder'. They look scary though as (if they were used badly by someone aggressive or clumsy) they could choke. My wife and I are careful and gentle and would like to try something like the lead below.

Read a lovely book 'The Art of Raising a Puppy' by the New Monks of Skete - not sure who they are, but they seem to know about puppies and they recommend these - and they really seem to care about their dogs. Any thoughts or suggestions?

We would certainly not use this as a 'punishment' or yank on it. Would appreciate advice.

 

[JoanneF]

I'm not keen on slip leads because a persistent puller can damage their trachea. The one time they are helpful, in my view, is for dogs that are a real flight risk, for example being handed over at rescue. They tighten so the dog cannot get away.

I much prefer a harness, get a cheap one while the puppy is young as he will outgrow it.

The monks got slated for a while as some of their methods were quite aversive and old fashioned but I think I heard their book has been re-published with some of their advice being changed.

The book that is currently getting good reviews is Easy Peasy Puppy Squeezy, and @JudyN recommends another one too.

 

[Hal]

Hi Joanne, thanks for the advice Concerned about using a harness in case we accidentally 'train' the little one to pull. Certainly wouldn't want to put any pressure through a slip lead, but was hoping it might be a gentle way of training out of pulling etc. Would hate to have any risk of damaging the little puppy though.

I've read quite a few of the 'reward only' authors (Dunbar, Mattinson, Bailey) and like them a lot, but a friend with the most beautiful, gentle German Shepherds (who he looks after like big furry babies) has talked me into reading the Monks and Cesar Millan. Worried I was going over to the dark side but found both thoughtful and likeable when I read them. So I'm a bit unsure...

Thanks for the Easy Peasy recommendation. I've downloaded it this afternoon and will have a read.

 

[JoanneF]

The thing about the slip leads is that it's the dog that will put pressure on it, and the injury could happen before he or you realise.

A harness won't teach him to pull - your training will teach him not to; without injury.

All restrained creatures have an instinct to pull, if you like to read the science behind these things it is called Oppositional Reflex. We need to teach him that when he feels the pressure in the lead, he eases back - whether on a harness or collar but at least he doesn't damage himself while he is learning.

Have a look at this - Kikopup on YouTube has lots of excellent videos.

And I'm afraid that with Cesar Milan, while there might be some material that is ok, I could point you to videos that show an appalling level of abuse.

 

[JudyN]

I wouldn't let Cesar Milan near my dog with a bargepole. On the whole I've only read/seen the negative posts and videos, but the videos I've seen of him were more than enough to show his approach.

The puppy book I like is The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell - it's very thorough. And I second JoanneF's recommendation of Kikopup's leash walking videos.

 

[Hal]

Hi Joanne,
Take your point about 'the dog pulling' (not us) and I guess if he was, and we wanted to protect him, we'd need to 'go with' which is maybe the opposite of how we're hoping to train him. Liked the video a lot - very calm and relaxed - I'll find some other videos by her. Several people have advised us against harnesses, but you make a really interesting point about our training rather than the lead/collar which will determine whether he pulls or not.

Brings us back full circle, as we started planning for a harness and then got talked away from it. Like the 'feel' of how secure a harness is without any risk of injury, so I think you've persuaded me back into using a harness Thanks for the advice.

 

[Dibbythedog]

Dear doG! The Monks of Skete Throw it in the bin.
Recommended
Pippa Mattinson
The Happy Puppy Handbook - Pippa Mattinson

 

[JoanneF]

Dear doG! The Monks of Skete Throw it in the bin.
Recommended
Pippa Mattinson
The Happy Puppy Handbook - Pippa Mattinson

In fairness, I do think I heard their most recent edition had been revised.

But - I have been fretting a little over the reference to a well behaved dog. So, to perhaps illustrate the difference between a well behaved dog and a shut down dog, @JudyN please would you post that video clip you have?

 

[JudyN]

So, to perhaps illustrate the difference between a well behaved dog and a shut down dog, @JudyN please would you post that video clip you have?

You mean the one that every time you suggest it, I can't for the life of me remember where I put it? I'm off to hunt it down... if I'm not back n half an hour, send a search party...

 

[JoanneF]

That's the one!

 

[JudyN]

Found it!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154814833717001

See how happy the dog on the right is, looking to the handler and really wanting to please? Whereas the one on the left looks really unhappy.

 

[JoanneF]

Thanks @JudyN

 

[Hemlock]

Be aware that a terrier pup is going to be way different from a GSD. Terriers are very outward bound, whereas GSDs like to be with you. So work with the dog you have, and don't worry when s/he reminds you about terrierism and gives you the finger.

Having said that, terriers are very intelligent and I've never had any trouble teaching loose lead walking, not because I am utterly brilliant but because I am utterly CONsistent and PERsistent. My dogs learn that nobody goes anywhere unless the lead is slack. As soon as that happens, off we go. As soon as the lead tightens, we stop. Thus it's the dog that chooses, and the dog that learns how to walk nicely. Rewards can be treat, toy or a mixture, but there are several ways to get good results, and for any dog I train, the reward is that we step smartly forward and get on with our walk.

One thing to learn is how to hold the lead. Most people naturally hold it the wrong way! The right way is the same way horse riders hold the reins. Have the back of your hand on top, your thumb towards you, little finger towards the dog. If you have small or weak fingers, take the lead between your little finger and third finger, but if it's comfortable to you, use the whole width of your hand. This way you are very strong if the dog launches suddenly.

All the best with your pup - wonderful times to come!

 

[JudyN]

I am utterly CONsistent and PERsistent. My dogs learn that nobody goes anywhere unless the lead is slack. As soon as that happens, off we go. As soon as the lead tightens, we stop.

I did the same thing, though it meant that in the early days it could take 10 mins to go 20 yards. I did this using a lead and collar, so when I wanted him to have a 'proper', fun walk, I used a harness instead, so I could let him do his own thing without undoing all the lead training. If you want to use a harness most of the time, I dare say this would work in reverse, with harness for loose-leash walking and collar for 'fun'.

 

[Hemlock]

Yes: good point. It also helps to have a specific word/phrase to tell the dog it can now range out.

 

[Ksf]

Hiya, I use slip leads, my trainer showed me the correct way to use one without causing damage or harm. But I definitely would learn how to use it properly otherwise harm could definitely be caused, but that is with any tool: harness, flat collar and lead. I find the slip lead is easiest to teach a loose lead and it is able to sit right under the dogs chin which helps with guidance when teaching him/her to follow you.

 

[Hal]

Be aware that a terrier pup is going to be way different from a GSD. Terriers are very outward bound, whereas GSDs like to be with you. So work with the dog you have, and don't worry when s/he reminds you about terrierism and gives you the finger.

Having said that, terriers are very intelligent and I've never had any trouble teaching loose lead walking, not because I am utterly brilliant but because I am utterly CONsistent and PERsistent. My dogs learn that nobody goes anywhere unless the lead is slack. As soon as that happens, off we go. As soon as the lead tightens, we stop. Thus it's the dog that chooses, and the dog that learns how to walk nicely. Rewards can be treat, toy or a mixture, but there are several ways to get good results, and for any dog I train, the reward is that we step smartly forward and get on with our walk.

One thing to learn is how to hold the lead. Most people naturally hold it the wrong way! The right way is the same way horse riders hold the reins. Have the back of your hand on top, your thumb towards you, little finger towards the dog. If you have small or weak fingers, take the lead between your little finger and third finger, but if it's comfortable to you, use the whole width of your hand. This way you are very strong if the dog launches suddenly.

All the best with your pup - wonderful times to come!

Hi Hemlock,
Your technique description sounds good and I don't mind if we don't get very far at first Am confused though about the lead holding - I've bee sitting here wiggling my hand around trying to follow the instructions, but I can't quite get it. Could you post a photo?

Thanks for the best wishes with the pup. My wife and I are both super gentle with animals (and people come to that) and we won't be bothered if the little one gives us the finger from time to time )

 

[Hal]

Hiya, I use slip leads, my trainer showed me the correct way to use one without causing damage or harm. But I definitely would learn how to use it properly otherwise harm could definitely be caused, but that is with any tool: harness, flat collar and lead. I find the slip lead is easiest to teach a loose lead and it is able to sit right under the dogs chin which helps with guidance when teaching him/her to follow you.

Dear Kirsty,
That's really interesting. I've read some of your other posts and you are clearly gentle and kind to your dog. It sounds as if you are using the slip lead in the way I hoped to learn. I've certainly no interest in choking the dog. Two questions: would you use one with a puppy for initial lead training and do you have any difficulty getting the lead to stay just under the dog's chin?

 

[Hal]

I did the same thing, though it meant that in the early days it could take 10 mins to go 20 yards. I did this using a lead and collar, so when I wanted him to have a 'proper', fun walk, I used a harness instead, so I could let him do his own thing without undoing all the lead training. If you want to use a harness most of the time, I dare say this would work in reverse, with harness for loose-leash walking and collar for 'fun'.

Hi Judy,
I think we are going to need to train our puppy to be calm with both a collar and a harness (unless we only use a harness) as we have a little boat and we will need to use a life jacket, (which for the puppy will feel quite like a harness.

Our initial plan was to train with a slip lead in the back garden (using tiny twitches of the lead, not yanks) for the first few weeks, and then progress to harness in puppy class or out walking. Still not sure about the slip lead and wondering if we should just stick with the harness for the first few months - using the stop start technique for training outlined by Hemlock below.

 

[Ksf]

I wouldn't particularly use a slip lead on a very young puppy, I think any sensible trainer would say the same, I think from around 16 weeks you could start, but I do feel they were more effective in teaching loose lead with, like you said to Judy, just small gentle flicks. The stop start method on teaching them to walk loosely could work well, but another way that I personally used was to do a complete 180 degree turn whenever the pup starts to walk in front, so it teaches them to follow you and maintain focus on what way your going and what YOUR doing. So practising in the garden on a flat collar and lead would help a lot, just having him walk at your side and then 180 turn when he starts to go ahead and so on. I'm not a fan of harnesses as they are mainly used to encourage your dog to pull, such as search and rescue dogs and police dogs etc. Good luck! Let us know how you get on

Dear Kirsty,
That's really interesting. I've read some of your other posts and you are clearly gentle and kind to your dog. It sounds as if you are using the slip lead in the way I hoped to learn. I've certainly no interest in choking the dog. Two questions: would you use one with a puppy for initial lead training and do you have any difficulty getting the lead to stay just under the dog's chin?