Puppies Developement

[playawhile]

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[ The reason I would not sell a 9 weeks old puppy without a testicle is that I do not like to hand over a puppy with a potential problem. If the testicle decides not to come down, then it should be surgically removed as it has a significantly increased potential to get cancerous.

Hi!

But the chance for a monorchid whippet dog to develop cancer is minimal. Considering that some 11% of all Swedish born whippets doesen't get both testicles down, this should then be a big problem but in the health surveys done by the Swedish Whippet Club every five years only one case of testicle cancer has been reported.

If it was a pekingese dog puppy I would worry!!

Henrik Härling

 

[playawhile]

Considering that some 11% of all Swedish born whippets doesen't get both testicles down,

Swedish born DOGS that is!!

Henrik

 

[whipowill]

On the other side of the coin ... I had a pup once who had two "at birth" (well within the first week) and definitely had them at 8 weeks when I gave him to my parents as a show prospect.  By the time he was 6mths they were both completely gone and did not return!  So perhaps we should not be so quick to assume that if they have them at birth then they are there for life!

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Lana I have encountered the same thing with a very promising Hungarian Vizsla pup once. He had both of his testicles by 4 weeks and also when vet checked at 7 weeks. But by 12 weeks one was gone never to return. Luckily I had not passed the problem on to any one else as I had planned to retain him. However he was then neutered and went to a pet home.

 

[Seraphina]

[

But the chance for a monorchid whippet dog to develop cancer is minimal. Considering that some 11% of all Swedish born whippets doesen't get both testicles down, this should then be a big problem but in the health surveys done by the Swedish Whippet Club every five years only one case of testicle cancer has been reported.





Actually, monorchid dog has only one testicle. The other one does not exist, so it cannot get cancer

I assume the 11% are either monorchids or unilateral cryptorchids? The tumurs affect the undescended testicle usually quite late in the life.

How long has this survey been conducted? At what age is a dog classified as a cryptorchid?

This is a good site on this subject

http://realgsd.info/GSDinfo/Care/cryptorchid.htm

Anyway i think it is a very good thing we are talking about this problem.

cheers Lida

 

[playawhile]

, monorchid dog has only one testicle. The other one does not exist, so it cannot get cancer

Actually

I assume the 11% are either monorchids or unilateral cryptorchids? The tumurs affect the undescended testicle usually quite late in the life.

How long has this survey been conducted? At what age is a dog classified as a cryptorchid?

Hi again!

Sorrry for using the wrong words, to early in the morning when I wrote last replay!! The survey has been done every five years since 1990 but the first survey included whippets born many years back. The veterinary who is an expert in this department (in Sweden) thinks that this is not an issue concerning our breed as she feels that cancer in undesceded testicles is extremly rare. This discussion about cancer is a waste of time according to me, as if this was a common problem we would hear about it on a regular basis, considering the large amount of cryptorchids in the breed. Also living with a group og pekingese I know that undescended testicles is a problem and if I were to breed pekingese I would advice puppy buyers to remove the undescended testicle.

What I notice is experianced dog people from other breeds coming in to whippet bringing along concerns from other breeds making it an issue although those issues are not problems in whippet.

Henrik Härling

 

[JAX]

Hi everyone;


And of-course, some can be teased or shaken down,

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[SIZE=14pt]Shaken down !!! (w00t) [/SIZE]Now thats a sight id like to see . what do you hold him by , his head (w00t) or his tail :lol:

Thats a new one to me !!! :wacko: :lol: :lol:

 

[~JO~]

As it is not an urgent operation, it is be one of those things that people mean to do but keep putting of.  I therefore would prefer to keep a puppy with this problem until he is about 12 weeks, and if has not dropped the testis have the op done.

(w00t) (w00t) So you would only wait until 12 weeks to see if a testis is dropped??

Putting a puppy of 12 weeks through such an operation is surely a much higher risk than the testicle becoming cancerous, surely it would be much better for the pups well-being to wait until he is about a year old. I would never take a puppy to be operated on at this age unless it its life was under immediate threat.

 

[Seraphina]

Putting a puppy of 12 weeks through such an operation is surely a much higher risk than the testicle becoming cancerous, surely it would be much better for the pups well-being to wait until he is about a year old.  I would never take a puppy to be operated on at this age unless it its life was under immediate threat.

Well, the vets I spoke to said that it is lot simpler and less stressful to operate at that age.

You have to weigh all the pros and cons. Best would for the testicle to come down naturally. But apparently if they are not down at 3 months (I mean not at all) they rarely do so. So far all the articles and books I read said that a retained testicle should be removed.

I guess I would ask if it is possible to scan the dog first to establish where the testicle is, and make sure there is one to worry about.

Lida

 

[dessie]

If it was a pekingese dog puppy I would worry!!

My Mum's first Pekingese was a cryptorchid, lived to 14 years old and the Vet removed the wayward testicle from his abodomen when he had a GA for something else at about 12 years of age. It was not cancerous and no threat to the dog!!

And I beg to differ but the colt foal I bred was not born with testes descended into the scrotum yet his development was perfectly normal and I would dispute that puppies are born with them.

9 - 12 weeks old is, IMO, FAR too young to subject a puppy to any major operation when the testicle may well descend any way (in fact I know my Vet would not perform surgery unless absolutely necessary at that sort of age). I still maintain there is no way a promising dog puppy should be dismissed at such a young age.

 

[Seraphina]

And of-course, some can be teased or shaken down,

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[SIZE=14pt]Shaken down !!! (w00t) [/SIZE]Now thats a sight id like to see . what do you hold him by , his head (w00t) or his tail :lol:

Thats a new one to me !!! :wacko: :lol: :lol:

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Not quite, pick the puppy up, hold him under his chest and frond legs by (lets say) left hand, prop him up on your hip and if you bounce him gently the way you would a baby, the testicle will move down by the gravity. You can use your other hand to help tease them down.

Lida

 

[Seraphina]

My Mum's first Pekingese was a cryptorchid, lived to 14 years old and the Vet removed the wayward testicle from his abodomen when he had a GA for something else at about 12 years of age.  It was not cancerous and no threat to the dog!!

nobody claims that EVERY undescended testicle becomes cancerous, some vet articles talk about 10 times more likely than normal

 

[Seraphina]

And I beg to differ but the colt foal I bred was not born with testes descended into the scrotum yet his development was perfectly normal and I would dispute that puppies are born with them. 

Well, so you bred one horse without balls and therefore you insist that is normal?

Over the years I have whelped probably close to 200 pups (not all my litters), roughly half being males, so out of the hundred boys only few did not have their testicles visible at birth. Out of these pups all but 8 dropped them within few days. The 8 were Whippets, 5 got them before they were two weeks old, the other 3 had them by 8 weeks.

Why don't you talk to some people who bred dogs for a long time and I am sure you will find somebody who also has pups with testicles at birth.

Although Whippets seem to have had this problem for some time.

Lida

 

[Seraphina]

[

Hi again!Sorrry for using the wrong words, to early in the morning when I wrote last replay!! The survey has been done every five years since 1990 but the first survey included whippets born many years back. The veterinary who is an expert in this department (in Sweden) thinks that this is not an issue concerning our breed as she feels that cancer in undesceded testicles is extremly rare. This discussion about cancer is a waste of time according to me, as if this was a common problem we would hear about it on a regular basis, considering the large amount of cryptorchids in the breed. Also living with a group og pekingese I know that undescended testicles is a problem and if I were to breed pekingese I would advice puppy buyers to remove the undescended testicle.

What I notice is experianced dog people from other breeds coming in to whippet bringing along concerns from other breeds making it an issue although those issues are not problems in whippet.

Henrik Härling

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I only know what I read over the years in various articles and books. And they all seem to say it is better to remove undescended testicle.

It is interesting that cancer is not problem in Whippets.

I am still hoping to find somebody who has also had a litter of Whippets born with testicles - or are mine total aberration ?

cheers Lida

 

[playawhile]

My Mum's first Pekingese was a cryptorchid, lived to 14 years old and the Vet removed the wayward testicle from his abodomen when he had a GA for something else at about 12 years of age. It was not cancerous and no threat to the dog!!

Hi!

How good that he was ok and I am not saying that all pekingese develop cancer but according to the insurance companies in Sweden as well as the health survey conducted by the breed club, the pekingese breed has quite a high percantage of cancer in undescendet testicles.

Henrik

 

[dessie]

I only know what I read over the years in various articles and books. And they all seem to say it is better to remove undescended testicle.

Aaaaah! So you are having a go at me for things that I have actually experienced yet you have only read about them!! Interesting theory.

And, incidentally, my colt was entire and gelded at a year old!! I have seen many other colts born as I used to work with horses and none of them were entire at birth either!!!

I have been breeding dogs for a fairly long time, since 1975 actually. But it is funny how the rest seem to agree that puppies are not born entire either.

However, as this topic is starting to descend into personal rudeness once more, I shall not make any more comment

 

[Canada]

Hi! Your puppy sounds perfectly normal.I agree with the other members comments.I have a little suggestion.Its the way I have always picked up puppies especially the boys.I always support under the "rump" as I start to pick them up,I never pick then up or put them down in a Stretched out position , ie: rear dangling down back feet reaching for the floor. Show their "guests " this way of picking them up too. It is more or less like the sitting position,mentioned. Keeps the testicles from retracting.Assuming you have seen both down. Anxiety will make the pup pull them up for sure. Just go to ringcraft and let him have fun socializing first. Often people are so uptight about having the perfect little show dog,they forget the fact that FIRST of all this is a puppy entitled to play and have fun .The serious stuff comes quicly enough. Go have fun. Good Luck

Sandra

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Ooooooooooh I never come into this part of K9 and look what thread I find first of all on the day I decide to visit!

Every male pup I see at 8 weeks for first jabs is checked for descended testicles. If these are not present they are re-checked at 10 weeks, and if I am still not happy then they are checked once more at 4 months or so.

I do strongly recommend that both testes are removed if one is undescended, as the incidence of cancer is greatly increased in undescended testicles. However, I can't comment on breed incidence of cancer in cryptorchids because I don't really think sufficient research of a suitable quality can possibly exist to convince me one way or another!

If a dog appears to be missing a testicle, we would usually wait until at least 8-10 months old before going ahead with an ex-lap to find and remove the offending ball. Yes, there will be many reports of people with dogs who have been perfectly healthy despite having undescended testes BUT I feel sure that the average owner would be most regretful if they had been advised to remove the testicle (on the basis of sound data) and decided against it only for the dog to later suffer from cancer.

As for testicles present at birth or not - I wouldn't be even vaguely concerned about that until at least 6 weeks old. Many pups with perfectly normal testicles apparently have none when examined - the small undeveloped testicle can easily pass up and down the inguinal canal in early life.

Fertility is affected in cases where testes remain in the abdomen but only because as previously mentioned the core body temperature is too great for functional semen production. However, the remaining external testicle will function fine. I would not recommend breeding from these dogs, however. As for a cut off point before deciding whether a pup should be eleiminated from breeding because of undescended testes - I would say that if a pup has reached adult maturiy (ie 12-18 months in most breeds) and is still without one ball then it should not be bred. To discount very young pups on the basis of an undescended testicle is a bit unfair and unrealistic, given the percentage of absolutely normal pups which can happily retract theirs! )

 

[BeeJay]

> I would not recommend breeding from these dogs, however.

Why?

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

> I would not recommend breeding from these dogs, however.
Why?

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Cryptorchidism is heritable. Because I am of the opinion that removing intra-abdominal testes is the best thing to do with these animals, I cannot recommend that a future generation of dogs which are at risk of this condition are bred. It is in my opinion wrong to breed dogs which will need major exploratory abdominal surgery early on in life (revenue generator or not, for those cynics among you!).

The following link may be of interest. I'd also like to highlight the connection between cryptorchidism and other congenital abnormalities. It's well recognised amongst our domestic species (and also humans, I believe) that individuals born with a defect very commonly exhibit multiple defects, many of which can go undetected in early life.

Canine and Feline Cryptorchidism

 

[Seraphina]

[

Aaaaah! So you are having a go at me for things that I have actually experienced yet you have only read about them!! Interesting theory.

Hi Dessie;

If you actually read my post you would have noticed that I was talking about the necesity to remove undescended testicles.

I have been saying that I HAVE SEEN MANY NEWBORN PUPPIES WITH TESTICLES. You are the one who has attacked me; suggesting that pups cannot be born with testicles as is not normal in mammals. We all have obviously different experiences and I accept your claim that your dogs and horses are not born with testicles. (w00t)

cheers Lida