Wcra Talk-in

[TC]

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Is it just me then that thinks 21" is too big for dog whippets, let alone bitches :blink:

TCx

 

[lynxexpress]

Something else I've just thought of ...... when you go to a talk-in, it would be nice to be able to vote for what you like, instead of voting as clubs.  Most clubs don't ask their members what they think anyway.  Shouldn't it be the case that if you can be bothered to go to a talk-in, your vote should count? 
A couple of years ago Geoff Cook put in a suggestion - it was either cut down on bends, or do away with bend Champs, I can't quite remember - but he had to stand up and state his suggestion, but when it came to voting, as a Gloucester representative, he had to vote against his own suggestion because the majority of Gloucester members didn't agree with it.  At the same time there was item on the agenda, and the Andover representatives voted the way they wanted, and not what the Andover members had voted for.  As the votes are just for information anyway, wouldn't it be better to get the opinions of those who can be bothered to go and discuss the items?

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June i went to many of these so called talk ins when i was secretary of Gloucester and personally i found they where a waste of time and money because what ever was said or suggested no notice was ever taken by the commitee this is why people just go and never open their mouths.

 

[Rob Rixon]

Couple of points

The rule for live hare coursing was a 20" limit for both dogs and bitches

Having a 20" limit for bitches will keep bitches out of the 32lbs class at the Champs

I've been told that if we had more VC races the chances are that you would have to win twice to get a VC

Not happy about bend champs and straight champs - all the titles devalues the Champion Title (Sp Ch !!)

We have seen Italian Greyhound run three time over 350m in Germany. So there is no problem with whippets running multiple time on longer track - however maybe there should be a standard gap between rounds - one hour is the time gap in Europe - how about here.

Talk-ins are worth it - if you don't speak you wont get heard. :lol:

The UK is the mother of democracies - so I would expect Geoff Cook to vote the way of his club - not the way he and he alone wanted.

Keep the ideas coming - and yes push items for the agenda through your club secs to the WCRA. I think the cut-off date is the end of the month :lol:

 

[Joanna]

Having a 20" limit for bitches will keep bitches out of the 32lbs class at the Champs

And why would that be a positive move? As far as I am concerned, that group is too small and if it excludes bitches (some-thing I haven't considered) that is outrageous! About time we changed a few things and got equal rights for big bitches :- " :- " :- "

 

[maggiemay2]

Having a 20" limit for bitches will keep bitches out of the 32lbs class at the Champs

And why would that be a positive move? As far as I am concerned, that group is too small and if it excludes bitches (some-thing I haven't considered) that is outrageous! About time we changed a few things and got equal rights for big bitches :- " :- " :- "

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here here Joanna. :thumbsup:

Sorry Rob, I did mean in lure coursing the height limit is 21" for both bitches and dogs.

 

[Joanna]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?

Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself



In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

 

[maggiemay2]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?

Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself



In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

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Yeh, i'm in!!!

 

[peppermint lady]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself

   

In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

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pmsl....but joking aside i do think the height limit should be 21inches, dog or bitch, and why ever not would you want to keep bitches out of the 32lb group anyway :wacko:

me no understand :unsure: :lol:

 

[moonlake]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself

   

In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

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pmsl....but joking aside i do think the height limit should be 21inches, dog or bitch, and why ever not would you want to keep bitches out of the 32lb group anyway :wacko:

me no understand :unsure: :lol:

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The reason for reducing the height for bitches (not so long ago) was because big bitches breed bigger dogs. However, if you want a level playing field, it would make more sense to run dogs and bitches separately because recent research (sorry - didn't bookmark it) shows that bitches have large left ventricles in their hearts than dogs. Non=ped racers in the 1950s always ecpected bitches to be faster than dogs which was why their champ races separate dogs and bitches.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[Strike Whippets]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself

   

In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

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pmsl....but joking aside i do think the height limit should be 21inches, dog or bitch, and why ever not would you want to keep bitches out of the 32lb group anyway :wacko:

me no understand :unsure: :lol:

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The reason for reducing the height for bitches (not so long ago) was because big bitches breed bigger dogs. However, if you want a level playing field, it would make more sense to run dogs and bitches separately because recent research (sorry - didn't bookmark it) shows that bitches have large left ventricles in their hearts than dogs. Non=ped racers in the 1950s always ecpected bitches to be faster than dogs which was why their champ races separate dogs and bitches.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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Spot on ...Not only that if you allow bitches to be as big as dogs they lose type and femininity IMO .....

 

[maggiemay2]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself

   

In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

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pmsl....but joking aside i do think the height limit should be 21inches, dog or bitch, and why ever not would you want to keep bitches out of the 32lb group anyway :wacko:

me no understand :unsure: :lol:

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The reason for reducing the height for bitches (not so long ago) was because big bitches breed bigger dogs. However, if you want a level playing field, it would make more sense to run dogs and bitches separately because recent research (sorry - didn't bookmark it) shows that bitches have large left ventricles in their hearts than dogs. Non=ped racers in the 1950s always ecpected bitches to be faster than dogs which was why their champ races separate dogs and bitches.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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Spot on ...Not only that if you allow bitches to be as big as dogs they lose type and femininity IMO .....

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I'm sure there are other methods to breeding bigger dogs too other than just using big bitches. Would you not get the same effect by putting a 21" dog to a 20" bitch?

:blink:

 

[June Jonigk]

The UK is the mother of democracies - so I would expect Geoff Cook to vote the way of his club - not the way he and he alone wanted.

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Yes Rob, Geoff did vote the way of his club members, as he was asked to - but why shouldn't he be able to vote for what he believes is right for racing? One vote for everyone I say :thumbsup:

 

[SUNDANCE]

:thumbsup: brilliant idea june, i have missed the champs and 3 other bend meetings as my club has not run any bends, leaving me unable to clear 3 of mine for the bend i think a charity meeting would be a great idea :thumbsup:   would it be held a morton in marsh?

judy has also raised some very good points :thumbsup:   i also agree winning 3 champs to beome a WCRCH is abit much, considering the 22lb and 24lb groups are so big, and usually have to run 1/4 finals as well

dna :thumbsup: wont do any harm can only be a good thing :thumbsup:

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I was surprised to read this Julie. Andover had a bend meeting on 9th March this year which you attended. We had scheduled another bend meeting for 6th April but, had to cancel on the day due to snow. The first championships were on 13th April. So I fail to see how it would have helped you if the WCRA had put on an extra bend meeting in March. For anyone wanting to do bend racing, I'm sure the clubs with permanent bend tracks: Maidstone, Independent, Stanborough and Harvel(curve), probably run bend meetings leading up to the bend championships. Regarding the fourth championships, if you want your dog to gain bend experience then you have to sacrifice going to straight opens in order to attend one of these clubs. Andover had intended putting on at least one bend meeting in September but, due to lack of experienced people to put up the bend track, and only two or three people actually wanting to run a bend, we decided to run straight meetings instead.

I am in favour of there being two 150 yard straights, one longer straight(maybe 200yards) and one bend for the championships. Not counting the WCRA championships, there were 16 straight opens and 4 bend opens this year. So it would be far more representative of whats happening on the open circuit to have three straights and one bend championship. As things currently stand, the dogs from the clubs with permanent bend tracks have a distinct advantage when it comes to the bend championships, as they will have had far more practice. I can think of a couple of dogs who have become champions by winning two bends but, have never won a straight open. On the other hand there are some dogs who have won fifteen or twenty opens but, haven't become champions. Which are the better dogs?

The height limit should be the same for dogs and bitches - 21 inches for both. I think its unlikely there would be many bitches over 20 but, it would allow breeders to use different stud dogs instead of 95% of breeders using the same five or six stud dogs that currently get used all the time. If you have a large bitch, you have to go to a small stud dog for fear of producing oversize whippets. By raising the bitch height limit would help with this problem which is currently seeing the gene pool become increasingly smaller.

Maybe dogs who win the superstar competitions should have an extra title before their name, because these dogs have consistently proven their worth over twelve opens throughout the year rather than just in two championship meetings.

 

[TC]

We should start a BIG BITCH campaign. Who's in?Peppermint Julie

MaggieMay2

Myself

   

In all seriousness, it should be the same height regardless :thumbsup:

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pmsl....but joking aside i do think the height limit should be 21inches, dog or bitch, and why ever not would you want to keep bitches out of the 32lb group anyway :wacko:

me no understand :unsure: :lol:

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The reason for reducing the height for bitches (not so long ago) was because big bitches breed bigger dogs. However, if you want a level playing field, it would make more sense to run dogs and bitches separately because recent research (sorry - didn't bookmark it) shows that bitches have large left ventricles in their hearts than dogs. Non=ped racers in the 1950s always ecpected bitches to be faster than dogs which was why their champ races separate dogs and bitches.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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Spot on ...Not only that if you allow bitches to be as big as dogs they lose type and femininity IMO .....

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Spot on again, on both counts.

I think I'm lost in this situation, I truly can's see why people would want such big bitches I hear where people are coming from in that there are all the different weight groups so they should be able to complete in all of them and therefore there are going to be some larger ladies but surely the 32lb weight group was only introduced to accommodate the bigger whippets that where appearing in the same vein as the height limits were increased. Now people want to increase it again. What happens in 2010? Will people want to put it up to 22" and have a 36lb group to accommodate all the even bigger whippets that are being produced by all the large ones around now :wacko:

On an aside to a comment earlier on.....using a small dog on a large bitch does not guarantee a smaller litter. More likely some small and some big rather then bringing the whole litter size down.

TCx

 

[Mark Roberts]

well what a worrying state of affairs.

as soon as you start raising hieght limits people get/breed bigger dogs so they want the hieght limits raised again and again, a long slippery slop IMO.

dogs should be bred to the correct size not standards altered to suit the dogs.

I cant for the life of me see why anyone would want a 21" whippet bitch, if you want somthing that big get a whippet/greyhound cross or a pure bred greyhound.

unless dogs are kept to the correct sizes were going to see all sorts of oversized beast running which IMO would be a shame.

 

[peppermint lady]

:thumbsup: brilliant idea june, i have missed the champs and 3 other bend meetings as my club has not run any bends, leaving me unable to clear 3 of mine for the bend i think a charity meeting would be a great idea :thumbsup:   would it be held a morton in marsh?

judy has also raised some very good points :thumbsup:   i also agree winning 3 champs to beome a WCRCH is abit much, considering the 22lb and 24lb groups are so big, and usually have to run 1/4 finals as well

dna :thumbsup: wont do any harm can only be a good thing :thumbsup:

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I was surprised to read this Julie. Andover had a bend meeting on 9th March this year which you attended. We had scheduled another bend meeting for 6th April but, had to cancel on the day due to snow. The first championships were on 13th April. So I fail to see how it would have helped you if the WCRA had put on an extra bend meeting in March. For anyone wanting to do bend racing, I'm sure the clubs with permanent bend tracks: Maidstone, Independent, Stanborough and Harvel(curve), probably run bend meetings leading up to the bend championships. Regarding the fourth championships, if you want your dog to gain bend experience then you have to sacrifice going to straight opens in order to attend one of these clubs. Andover had intended putting on at least one bend meeting in September but, due to lack of experienced people to put up the bend track, and only two or three people actually wanting to run a bend, we decided to run straight meetings instead.

I am in favour of there being two 150 yard straights, one longer straight(maybe 200yards) and one bend for the championships. Not counting the WCRA championships, there were 16 straight opens and 4 bend opens this year. So it would be far more representative of whats happening on the open circuit to have three straights and one bend championship. As things currently stand, the dogs from the clubs with permanent bend tracks have a distinct advantage when it comes to the bend championships, as they will have had far more practice. I can think of a couple of dogs who have become champions by winning two bends but, have never won a straight open. On the other hand there are some dogs who have won fifteen or twenty opens but, haven't become champions. Which are the better dogs?

The height limit should be the same for dogs and bitches - 21 inches for both. I think its unlikely there would be many bitches over 20 but, it would allow breeders to use different stud dogs instead of 95% of breeders using the same five or six stud dogs that currently get used all the time. If you have a large bitch, you have to go to a small stud dog for fear of producing oversize whippets. By raising the bitch height limit would help with this problem which is currently seeing the gene pool become increasingly smaller.

Maybe dogs who win the superstar competitions should have an extra title before their name, because these dogs have consistently proven their worth over twelve opens throughout the year rather than just in two championship meetings.

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rob i know we ran bends at the start of the year but 2 of my 3 dogs i didnt feel old enough to be running bends at that point as they where under a year. also i can attend bourne end over the winter if i want to run and school for the 1st bend champs :thumbsup:

it was more the last bend champs i feel is the problem, i was unable to clear 3 of mine due to not many bends running, the week before the champs i would have gone to the indi to clear but due to being on the committee at oxford i had to help my club at our open :thumbsup:

also the Andover bends had to be cancelled as not enough of the members knew how to put the bend up, due to everyone else attending the opens on those days.

it cant be helped, but its a shame as the numbers at the last champs did seem very low, and i think it was due to lots of the younger dogs that ive seen racing this year being unable to get the bend practice in before hand :thumbsup:

 

[Joanna]

as soon as you start raising hieght limits people get/breed bigger dogs so they want the hieght limits raised again and again, a long slippery slop IMO.

It isn't raising the height limit per se, it is just accomodating all whippets equally.

I think Rob has made an excellent point regarding the gene pool and stud dogs. the knock on effect is healthier dogs perhaps? May-be a reduction in the incidence of cryptorchidism.

I think that we should embrace change and not resisit it. As I said earlier, give me a good reason why dogs and bitches have a different set of criteria and I will gladly listen. I accept your point Gay and have always thought bitches are at an advantage to dogs, I would be interested to see some statistics compiled from championships from the last 5 years or to see if this bears out (Judy :* ). If it does, it may be worth considering using larger weight groups and separating dogs and bitches. That would be radical :- " and I can't see the WCRA facilitating it, interesting to consider none-the-less.

Mark, I don't think any-one is advocating breeding larger bitches, just accepting that there are big whippets that are excluded whereas their male counterparts can compete. Hardly seems fair to me.

 

[maggiemay2]

as soon as you start raising hieght limits people get/breed bigger dogs so they want the hieght limits raised again and again, a long slippery slop IMO.

It isn't raising the height limit per se, it is just accomodating all whippets equally.

I think Rob has made an excellent point regarding the gene pool and stud dogs. the knock on effect is healthier dogs perhaps? May-be a reduction in the incidence of cryptorchidism.

I think that we should embrace change and not resisit it. As I said earlier, give me a good reason why dogs and bitches have a different set of criteria and I will gladly listen. I accept your point Gay and have always thought bitches are at an advantage to dogs, I would be interested to see some statistics compiled from championships from the last 5 years or to see if this bears out (Judy :* ). If it does, it may be worth considering using larger weight groups and separating dogs and bitches. That would be radical :- " and I can't see the WCRA facilitating it, interesting to consider none-the-less.

Mark, I don't think any-one is advocating breeding larger bitches, just accepting that there are big whippets that are excluded whereas their male counterparts can compete. Hardly seems fair to me.

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Fantastic, well constructed reply. With you all the way.

Noone is asking for the height limit to be raised for All whippets, just (as has been said previously) to raise the limit to bitches and dogs limit being 21". Why should only dogs be able to enter the 32lb class?

There would be no bigger whippets or huge brute type beasts entered as there are already 21" whippet dogs.

Fairs fair, lets see the evidence of previous champs etc to show that bitches are better than dogs.

With regard to breeding a big bitch to a small dog to bring the size of the pups down.... surely there isnt much difference in the chance of getting a big dog out of a large dog/small bitch mating. There are always going to be exceptions and throw backs producing smaller or larger whippets. :wacko:

 

[Judy]

I actually don't agree with a dog becoming a champion after only one win. Gaining the title is hard and it should be. Only about half the dogs that win one championship final go on to gain their titles. If you changed it to just one win then we would double the number of champions and it would be no different to winning an open.

The non-peds have a much higher percentage of dogs with titles than us. I think making it easier would only devalue the title and that would be such a shame. The championships isn't just about the fun of gaining a title, it has a more serious role of identifying the really good dogs.

On the other hand making it 3 wins to become a champion might make it too hard.

I believe that re-measuring of dogs within 1/2 an inch of the limit is already about to be brought back in as well as random measuring.

 

[peppermint lady]

I actually don't agree with a dog becoming a champion after only one win. Gaining the title should be hard. The non-peds have a much higher percentage of dogs with titles than us. I think making it easier would only devalue the title and that would be such a shame. The championships isn't just about the fun of gaining a title, it has a more serious role of identifying the really good dogs.

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totally agree, should be 2 win to gain wcrch :thumbsup: a dog worthy of the title will win again :cheers:

back to the height and bitches having an advantage over dogs :wacko: i dont agree, bitches have seasons and not all come back to the track running as they did before their season, if you get your dog fit and keep him in top condition, as long as he stays injury free you will get a full seasons running out of him

i have to agree with jo, rob and maggiemay that the height should be the same for a dog and a bitch :thumbsup:

TC said about bitches being to big takes away their bitch qualitys, so if we want dogs be butch and bitches to be girlie, surely there should be a minimum weight/height for a dog, and not have any dogs under 20lb :wacko: :wacko:

and as maggiemay said what the difference putting a small bitch to a larger dog :unsure: no difference at all.

no-one wants to breed bigger whippets for the sake of doing it. as nobody wants a racing dog that they cant get a passport for, i would like to think the people that are doing all the breeding are being sensible about who goes to who, and what sizes might be produced...i just think the height should be the same for both :thumbsup: