Why 150 Yards?

[Nubian]

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Sorry if I seem to be banging on about this but the more I'm learning the more questions I feel I need to ask!!

From what I can see whippet racing seems to be based on a 150 yards sprint although it is clear that there are a number of bends races.

Coming from a greyhound background I saw that a standard distance was anything between about 380 metres and 480 metres over four bends. I know there were shorter and longer distances than these but this was the standard run and the end of these races the greyhounds were blowing hard. You knew (and I'm sure they did) they had just had a good run!

Now I know that we are talking about whippets here and they are a lot smaller than greyhounds and I'm not saying the whippets should be made to over- extend themselves. I cannot help noticing though from my very limited experience that when a whippet has just had it's 150 yards race it appears to be hardly blowing at all compared to greyhounds at the end of a race! Please don't think I'm saying that your whippets aren't being given a work-out, it's just doesn't look like it through my newcomer eyes.

So, following on from my other topic about whether bitches really are faster than dogs, could the answer be that 150 yards is too short to really present a true test of speed? I'm not saying that whippets should be run over anything like the distances a greyhound would run over but does it mean that 150 yards is long enough to truly test a whippet's speed, especially a non-ped?

I have run greyhounds over a stiff 400 yard straight gallop at Wickwar in Gloucestershire and at the end of that you are left in no doubt that the stronger, faster dog has won!

That might be a bit too stiff a test for a most whippets but perhaps say 200 or 275 yards might be a fairer test of outright speed than 150 yards?

Once again I'm not moaning or suggesting any change but just wondered people might think. I suspect you may find some surprising results!

 

[ahorsnall]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

 

[sherry]

MY NO LIMIT PANTS MORE THAN MY 22LBER OVER 150YDS AS I THINK SHE PUTS IT ALL IN. AS FOR 150YARDS DISTANCE I WAS ASKING THE SAME QUESTION MYSELF THE OTHER WEEK WHO CAME UP WITH THE DISTANCE OF 150YDS WHY NOT 140YDS OR 160YDS? IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND A TRACK THAT CAN ACCOMADATE 200YARDS WITH SAY A 50 YARD RUN IN MEANING THE TRACK WUD HAVE TO B @ LEAST 250YDS LONG SO I THINK THIS CUD B 1 REASON FOR THE 150YDS. ALSO LIKE ANTH HAS JUST SAID WHIPPETS SOMETIMES HAVE TO RACE AS MANY TIMES AS 5 RACES IN 1 DAY WHEREAS A GHD WILL ONLY HAVE ONE OR 2 A WEEK.

 

[Nubian]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

Good point but remember :

1) that still doesn't mean 150 yards is a true test of speed and

2) have you seen what coursing greyhounds used to do in a day? A simpe eight dog stake would involve as many as three or more runs after a hare!! That would be an absolute but-guster! Some of those dogs were track-bred greyhounds as opposed to coursing bred and would still race on the track a couple of weeks later. Each run after the hare would be several times more than the 750 yards (5 times 150 yards) that the whippet would do in a day!

Even a drag coursing event at Wickwar would often involve three 400 yards gallops uphill some times with less than 30 minutes break in between each run!

 

[moonlake]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

Good point but remember :

1) that still doesn't mean 150 yards is a true test of speed and

2) have you seen what coursing greyhounds used to do in a day? A simpe eight dog stake would involve as many as three or more runs after a hare!! That would be an absolute but-guster! Some of those dogs were track-bred greyhounds as opposed to coursing bred and would still race on the track a couple of weeks later. Each run after the hare would be several times more than the 750 yards (5 times 150 yards) that the whippet would do in a day!

Even a drag coursing event at Wickwar would often involve three 400 yards gallops uphill some times with less than 30 minutes break in between each run!

I have also run (whippets) at Wickwar where my coursing bred dogs are able to beat racing dogs that they would never beat over 150 yards on the flat. Probably their experience in coming out of slips gave them an advantage they would not have had from a trap. However, I don't believe that Wickwar is a test of speed. Having had and bred coursing greyhounds, it's the run-up that counts, i.e. early pace and while I believe that 200 yards straight from scratch would be a better test of whippet speed, once you get into 300 yards+, more factors come into play. A fit whippet shouldbe able to run 300 yards x 5 as they get rest times in between but basically, it is what you train them to do. BTW whippets are expected to run 16 dog coursing stakes in one day (not every time - most were 8s). My WCR Ch Luke (born 1970) still holds the record of %courses won against run (there weren't so many clubs in those days so dogs couldn't get so many runs as later) and he was fast enough to run successfully against the non-peds so it can be done.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[mutley]

not many tracks can acomadate over more than 160

 

[masta]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

Good point but remember :

1) that still doesn't mean 150 yards is a true test of speed and

2) have you seen what coursing greyhounds used to do in a day? A simpe eight dog stake would involve as many as three or more runs after a hare!! That would be an absolute but-guster! Some of those dogs were track-bred greyhounds as opposed to coursing bred and would still race on the track a couple of weeks later. Each run after the hare would be several times more than the 750 yards (5 times 150 yards) that the whippet would do in a day!

Even a drag coursing event at Wickwar would often involve three 400 yards gallops uphill some times with less than 30 minutes break in between each run!

your right it is not a true test (but its a race not a test of stamina) i would say a 240 - 350 straight is more acceptable and challenging and easily achieved by most fit whippets, as you say when coursing and lure coursing much longer distances are involved a dog can have (if it reaches the final) 5 - 800 yard courses during a comp, if my dog was towing after three runs on hare i would be well upset

 

[jeffb]

nubian if you dont ask you will never learn

 

[rodders]

Think 150-160 yds is an ok distance for whippets.They hit full speed alot quicker than greyhounds,and if you consider that greyhound sprint distances start at 250yds,the shorter distance of the whippet proberbly means both greyhounds and whippets would be running flat out for a similar length of time.We consider the 100m human runner to be faster than the 400m runner,and yet 400m is classed as a sprint distance

 

[ahorsnall]

:thumbsup:

Think 150-160 yds is an ok distance for whippets.They hit full speed alot quicker than greyhounds,and if you consider that greyhound sprint distances start at 250yds,the shorter distance of the whippet proberbly means both greyhounds and whippets would be running flat out for a similar length of time.We consider the 100m human runner to be faster than the 400m runner,and yet 400m is classed as a sprint distance

:thumbsup:

 

[JOHNG]

whippets are bred for sprinting not staying. 150yds/160yds as been the normal distance since whippet racing started ( thats if the club /track could get the distance ) i raced at some clubs were the distance was only 130yds . proper bred whippets are out and out sprinters :thumbsup:

 

[Nubian]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

Good point but remember :

1) that still doesn't mean 150 yards is a true test of speed and

2) have you seen what coursing greyhounds used to do in a day? A simpe eight dog stake would involve as many as three or more runs after a hare!! That would be an absolute but-guster! Some of those dogs were track-bred greyhounds as opposed to coursing bred and would still race on the track a couple of weeks later. Each run after the hare would be several times more than the 750 yards (5 times 150 yards) that the whippet would do in a day!

Even a drag coursing event at Wickwar would often involve three 400 yards gallops uphill some times with less than 30 minutes break in between each run!

your right it is not a true test (but its a race not a test of stamina) i would say a 240 - 350 straight is more acceptable and challenging and easily achieved by most fit whippets, as you say when coursing and lure coursing much longer distances are involved a dog can have (if it reaches the final) 5 - 800 yard courses during a comp, if my dog was towing after three runs on hare i would be well upset

Thanks for that. Good points there. So you agree that 150 yards is probably too short?

If this is so would you also agree that it is less likely that bitches will prove to be faster once the run is over 240-350 yards?

Perhaps then the bitches would lose the advantage they appear to have in whippet racing?

 

[Nubian]

whippets are bred for sprinting not staying. 150yds/160yds as been the normal distance since whippet racing started ( thats if the club /track could get the distance ) i raced at some clubs were the distance was only 130yds . proper bred whippets are out and out sprinters :thumbsup:

Hi John!

Don't forget greyhounds are really sprinters too even though they may run over longer distances.

My point is also that we are talking about non-peds and so even if "proper bred whippets" only run over 130-160 yards, is this really long enough to show the real speed of a non- ped whippet?

 

[wild whippies]

It depends what your perception of a race is. Sprint athletes and long distance runners differ in their physical appearance for a reason (mainly to do with which muscle fibres are stimulated and a natural predisposition to this "type" ) both types of running are considered racing either way. My nonped whilst not one for blowing after 150yds will decelerate after this point due to lactic acid build up and other mechanisms within the muscles starting to decrease efficiancy. The beauty of the 150yd race is it aimed at sprint racing and these dogs have been bred for this purpose alone for decades. If the tracks changed then i suspect there would be physical changes made to the nonped too some of which can be observed in those no limit dogs bred towards the greyhound that are kept for the bends purely for the reason these dogs won't have reached full acceleration on a 150yd dash. Peds are a different kettle of fish, they're slower they have less bulk to their muscles and it.s why these dogs do well in stamina type racing e.g lure coursing. Why specifically the tracks have been 150yds is probably because it.s a distance most clubs can accomodate across the country. The nonped has meerly been bred to meet it.s purpose just like the racing ped, the lure coursing / working ped, the sprint greyhound, the coursing greyhound etc etc.

 

[Nubian]

but a whippet may have as many as five races in the same day dont think many greyhounds do :thumbsup:

Good point but remember :

1) that still doesn't mean 150 yards is a true test of speed and

2) have you seen what coursing greyhounds used to do in a day? A simpe eight dog stake would involve as many as three or more runs after a hare!! That would be an absolute but-guster! Some of those dogs were track-bred greyhounds as opposed to coursing bred and would still race on the track a couple of weeks later. Each run after the hare would be several times more than the 750 yards (5 times 150 yards) that the whippet would do in a day!

Even a drag coursing event at Wickwar would often involve three 400 yards gallops uphill some times with less than 30 minutes break in between each run!

I have also run (whippets) at Wickwar where my coursing bred dogs are able to beat racing dogs that they would never beat over 150 yards on the flat. Probably their experience in coming out of slips gave them an advantage they would not have had from a trap. However, I don't believe that Wickwar is a test of speed. Having had and bred coursing greyhounds, it's the run-up that counts, i.e. early pace and while I believe that 200 yards straight from scratch would be a better test of whippet speed, once you get into 300 yards+, more factors come into play. A fit whippet shouldbe able to run 300 yards x 5 as they get rest times in between but basically, it is what you train them to do. BTW whippets are expected to run 16 dog coursing stakes in one day (not every time - most were 8s). My WCR Ch Luke (born 1970) still holds the record of %courses won against run (there weren't so many clubs in those days so dogs couldn't get so many runs as later) and he was fast enough to run successfully against the non-peds so it can be done.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

Hi Moonlake!

I would love to watch whippets run at Wickwar!

Why do you say it is not a true test of speed? You say that your coursing bred whippet beat dogs that he would never have beaten over 150 yards. Well that's just my point. That 150 yard specialist may only have appeared to be faster than your coursing bred dog because you were looking at a race of 150yards! I agree that he may have been used to coming out of slips quicker but if the 150 yard dog was that quick then it should have made up for that on the gallop to the finish line.

Wickwar for me was a test not only of speed but of sheer stength as well as the gallop up the hill really sorted the dogs out!

I suppose that if the run were over a flatter course it might be a purer test of speed because yes some dogs are quicker out of the traps than others while some would be quicker out of slips but if we are simply testing speed over a reasonable distance in a level playing field then it may well be that the whippets we assume to be the fastest now may not prove to be under those circumstances!

 

[JOHNG]

whippets are bred for sprinting not staying. 150yds/160yds as been the normal distance since whippet racing started ( thats if the club /track could get the distance ) i raced at some clubs were the distance was only 130yds . proper bred whippets are out and out sprinters :thumbsup:

Hi John!

Don't forget greyhounds are really sprinters too even though they may run over longer distances.

My point is also that we are talking about non-peds and so even if "proper bred whippets" only run over 130-160 yards, is this really long enough to show the real speed of a non- ped whippet?

in one word YES.

 

[Nubian]

It depends what your perception of a race is. Sprint athletes and long distance runners differ in their physical appearance for a reason (mainly to do with which muscle fibres are stimulated and a natural predisposition to this "type" ) both types of running are considered racing either way. My nonped whilst not one for blowing after 150yds will decelerate after this point due to lactic acid build up and other mechanisms within the muscles starting to decrease efficiancy. The beauty of the 150yd race is it aimed at sprint racing and these dogs have been bred for this purpose alone for decades. If the tracks changed then i suspect there would be physical changes made to the nonped too some of which can be observed in those no limit dogs bred towards the greyhound that are kept for the bends purely for the reason these dogs won't have reached full acceleration on a 150yd dash. Peds are a different kettle of fish, they're slower they have less bulk to their muscles and it.s why these dogs do well in stamina type racing e.g lure coursing. Why specifically the tracks have been 150yds is probably because it.s a distance most clubs can accomodate across the country. The nonped has meerly been bred to meet it.s purpose just like the racing ped, the lure coursing / working ped, the sprint greyhound, the coursing greyhound etc etc.

Hi Wild!

I see exactly what you are saying but I'm a bit confused at the idea of a non-ped decelerating after 150 yards due to lactic acid build up!

From what you say it seems that in a nutshull, whippets are bred for 150 yards with a few others breed for bends.

Usain Bolt won the 100 metres in the Olympics in a world record time. He is big tall and very powerful, yet until recently he was not considered to be the fastest man in the world over 100 metres! He was regularly beaten by faster starting athletes simply because he often took a while to get into his stride but in the Olympic final he was able to keep the faster starting athletes within reach but once he got going it became clear that he is the fastest in the world bar none! As a newcomer it just seems to me thatin whippet racing the 150 metre champions may not actually be the fastest whippets simply because the race is over before the very fastest have got into their stride.

Is it that the champions are merely the quick trappers, blasting out the traps and going on to win race after race over 150 yards before their competitors have got going? Are these really the fastest whippets?

I don't know the answer, as I say I'm a newbie but I just can't help wondering if things would be a little different if a "real" test was to be established!

 

[johnnoble]

whippets are bred for sprinting not staying. 150yds/160yds as been the normal distance since whippet racing started ( thats if the club /track could get the distance ) i raced at some clubs were the distance was only 130yds . proper bred whippets are out and out sprinters :thumbsup:

Hi John!

Don't forget greyhounds are really sprinters too even though they may run over longer distances.

My point is also that we are talking about non-peds and so even if "proper bred whippets" only run over 130-160 yards, is this really long enough to show the real speed of a non- ped whippet?

150yds is ample for a whippet to attain its top speed, these dogs are sprinters not stayers when you consider some of them only weigh 16lb. 5 runs in a day is quiet enough for any 16lb whippet. We are happy with the way whippets are run, without anyone coming up with RIDICULOUS ideas on how they should be run.

Like i said before they are SPRINTERS.[they do not have to be blowing at the end of a race to prove they have reached their top speed]

Youl be saying 100yds is not far enough for a human sprinter next.

 

[billyboy45]

In years gone by,we used to run up to 4,sometimes 5,500yrd races in an evening,to win the racing titles over here.All this took place over a period of about 2 hours,if we were lucky.Back then,it took a totaly different animal,than what is needed today.Ok,you needed as much speed as you could posibly get.But you needed stamina too,and lots of it.I used to have to school my dogs 3 times a week,by giving them 3,300yrders,one after the other,when they were fit,with virtualy no break,in between runs.That way,i knew they were up for it,no matter what heats they were drawn in.There is an an old trick over here,that gets used to its full advantage,in that you get you're dog in the 1st heat if posible,all through the differnt runs,so that you have the longest breaks between them.Didn't matter to me,where they were run,once they were ready and up for it.Anyway,since coming back into the game,a few years ago, i find that a totaly different type of dog is needed.It's all down to speed now,as the races are only averaging 180/200,with a heat,if you ate lucky,and then a final.Thankfully,when i go down southern Ireland,where they run a 32 dog stake,(2 at a time),over maybe 300 yrds,the old types will do better again.Another thing ive noticed,since racing greyhounds,is that a sprinter is usualy a shorter,more powerfull dog,where the stayers would be realy long,and leaner looking.Have also noticed this in quite a few none ped champions.There are some beautiful long specimins,who are very supperior,but in my oppinion,(and it's only my oppinion)the wee dogs and bitches who look a bit short,are little flyers.Ive also studied my own dogs,on video,and the short ones take quite a few strides more,to cover the distances,but their legs move a fair bit quicker,and they are doing better times.This wont always be the case,but where i used to keep back the longest pups in a litter,it dont bother me anymore,as ive seen the shortest wee runt in a litter,beat the socks of all their littermates.Far as true speed goes.My Trouble bitch,is very slow away,since she done a gracillus,but ive seen her go,from 200yrds,and litteraly eat the ground up,even against my greyhounds.She came back from 5 down,at 200 yrds,to get beat on the line at 300,against a bitch who wasn't tiring,and was 5 in front of her,at the pick up,a further 20 yrds up the field.So it's hard to tell just how quick summit is,when they're slow away,like her,as she would not get near some of my other dogs,on a 150 yrd run,but would slaughter them over 400.Ok,im gona stop here,as ive just been my old self again,and wrote a bl...y book.Sorree. ...Billy...Happy New Year folks.

 

[wild whippies]

Hi Wild!
I see exactly what you are saying but I'm a bit confused at the idea of a non-ped decelerating after 150 yards due to lactic acid build up!

From what you say it seems that in a nutshull, whippets are bred for 150 yards with a few others breed for bends.

Usain Bolt won the 100 metres in the Olympics in a world record time. He is big tall and very powerful, yet until recently he was not considered to be the fastest man in the world over 100 metres! He was regularly beaten by faster starting athletes simply because he often took a while to get into his stride but in the Olympic final he was able to keep the faster starting athletes within reach but once he got going it became clear that he is the fastest in the world bar none! As a newcomer it just seems to me thatin whippet racing the 150 metre champions may not actually be the fastest whippets simply because the race is over before the very fastest have got into their stride.

Is it that the champions are merely the quick trappers, blasting out the traps and going on to win race after race over 150 yards before their competitors have got going? Are these really the fastest whippets?

Hi Nubian, googling the likes of sprint athletes and acidosis will probably explain what I mean but lactic acid isn't the only factor, there are many that come into play.

Being unfamiliar with Usian Bolt I googled him, physically I'd say he looked like a sprinter, especially when you compare him to the likes of a Kenyan long distance athlete.

To me, I consider that over 150yds there is no margin for error, it's not just a matter of trapping well and going full pelt, being able to hold this is important too, especially with dogs that are stronger finishers coming up from behind. Miss the lids with either a dog with early pace or a strong finisher and it will often cost them a win, I actually like the idea that there is no margin for error and consider it a proper race.

I don't know the answer, as I say I'm a newbie but I just can't help wondering if things would be a little different if a "real" test was to be established!

What would you consider to be a ''real'' test? It'd be interesting to see what you think would be and I bet there's a dog out there that'll cater for it, whether it's a non-ped on the straights is another matter.