Bean And Tilly Again

[EMILY]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

Good luck whatever you decide :luck: :luck:

 

[Mark Roberts]

I've edited a few post that have got silly again.

as for uping warn levels mabe it's time the mods did get a bit keener on those that want them upped.

Lets try and stay on topic and give constructive (possitive or negative) comments, we dont have to agree but we can phrase things in a polite adult way. CANT WE?

 

[Evie]

No matter of anyone's opinions on Kim's suitability of owning dogs the fact remains that she has. She has come on here and admitted to problems between the two dogs and asked for advice on how best to deal with them. I for one think this was a good step to take. Rather than bury her head in the sand or just give up she asks our advice, from experianced people on here, on how to handle the situation.

So rather than slate her for being brave enough to put her hands up and admit there is a problem, and humble enough to ask advice of others - Can't all the more "experianced" people here give constructive advice on how to deal with it all?

 

[mazza]

Sorry Kim that you are having dominance problems with Tilly and Bean. I have never owned same sex dogs so have never had to deal with these kind of issues.

Many people on K9 own two or more same sexed dogs and they have no or few problems but same sex does usually involve a certain amount of dominance behaviour with one striving to be top dog and the pecking order accepted by the lesser dominant dog with a few spats along the way to gain hierachy.

Both your dogs sound strong willed and Tilly making her intentions felt to be above Bean, and Bean being young and feisty and not backing down without a struggle is magnifying this natural behaviour.

I think a second dog being of the opposite sex would have made life much easier, but then hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Hope you get good advice and things work out but if letting Bean go seems like the only option in the end, your breeder will be there to help and ultimately take her back if it comes to that.

Keith…….

your cutting remarks are not necessary. Do you see everything in black and white and no grey in between. I’m sure Kim doesn’t need your negative comments, she looking to K9 for advice not personal insults.

 

[Rae]

I have to admit Kim that I do agree with Lesley - this has been a long time coming. I said a similar thing in my first post that you've always struggled with Bean. I still do think that it's best for all of you if you do find Bean another home. We all know how much you love her and that you'll do the right thing for her, and hold off until a suitable home is found.

If everyone is honest they probably have a favourite - we all find some of our dogs easier than the others - I find Leia very hard work sometimes but have never ever had a problem with Star, Holly or Tie.

If you read what Vicky said it was good advice - it's not Tilly you need to demote exactly. Tilly is top bitch in the dogs but you need to be top bitch over all. We have 4 bitches here and Holly and Leia have often had words, but at the end of the day I am the 'biggest bitch in this house' (w00t) so they will all do as they are asked.

If Hannah really can fit Bean in then I'd take her up on her offer, as it will give you a chance to see how Tilly is on her own, and give Hannah a chance to assess Bean before any permanent decisions are made. Hannah is very experienced and I'm sure she will be honest with you. You may find you feel totally releived when she is gone, or that you cant live without her.

 

[TC]

I have to admit Kim that I do agree with Lesley - this has been a long time coming.  I said a similar thing in my first post that you've always struggled with Bean.  I still do think that it's best for all of you if you do find Bean another home.  We all know how much you love her and that you'll do the right thing for her, and hold off until a suitable home is found.
If everyone is honest they probably have a favourite - we all find some of our dogs easier than the others - I find Leia very hard work sometimes but have never ever had a problem with Star, Holly or Tie.

If you read what Vicky said it was good advice - it's not Tilly you need to demote exactly. Tilly is top bitch in the dogs but you need to be top bitch over all.  We have 4 bitches here and Holly and Leia have often had words, but at the end of the day I am the 'biggest bitch in this house'  (w00t) so they will all do as they are asked. 

If Hannah really can fit Bean in then I'd take her up on her offer, as it will give you a chance to see how Tilly is on her own, and give Hannah a chance to assess Bean before any permanent decisions are made.  Hannah is very experienced and I'm sure she will be honest with you.  You may find you feel totally releived when she is gone, or that you cant live without her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Kim,

I have stayed completely out of this until now, but having read Rae's reply, I can honestly say that I don't think you'll get better advice OR a better opportunity than you've been offered.

I think you should take Hannah up on her offer to, it's a very generous one, and it will give you a chance to assess things like Rae says.

Best of luck, whatever happens, to you and Bean :luck:

Tracy

p.s. Rae - I'm glad that it was you that said I am the 'biggest bitch in this house' (w00t)

 

[kim & Tilly]

I have to admit Kim that I do agree with Lesley - this has been a long time coming.  I said a similar thing in my first post that you've always struggled with Bean.  I still do think that it's best for all of you if you do find Bean another home.  We all know how much you love her and that you'll do the right thing for her, and hold off until a suitable home is found.
If everyone is honest they probably have a favourite - we all find some of our dogs easier than the others - I find Leia very hard work sometimes but have never ever had a problem with Star, Holly or Tie.

If you read what Vicky said it was good advice - it's not Tilly you need to demote exactly. Tilly is top bitch in the dogs but you need to be top bitch over all.  We have 4 bitches here and Holly and Leia have often had words, but at the end of the day I am the 'biggest bitch in this house'  (w00t) so they will all do as they are asked. 

If Hannah really can fit Bean in then I'd take her up on her offer, as it will give you a chance to see how Tilly is on her own, and give Hannah a chance to assess Bean before any permanent decisions are made.  Hannah is very experienced and I'm sure she will be honest with you.  You may find you feel totally releived when she is gone, or that you cant live without her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Kim,

I have stayed completely out of this until now, but having read Rae's reply, I can honestly say that I don't think you'll get better advice OR a better opportunity than you've been offered. Just to say i have been offered another chance by a K9er as well

I think you should take Hannah up on her offer to, it's a very generous one, and it will give you a chance to assess things like Rae says.

Best of luck, whatever happens, to you and Bean :luck:

Tracy

p.s. Rae - I'm glad that it was you that said I am the 'biggest bitch in this house' (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

And i have had lots of PMs and will be ringing the people concerned for some advice tonight, ultamitly i want to keep bean and if i can sort things out i will

 

[Susan]

Over the last year, Rob and Ricky have had 3 growling matches , and 1 fight, that lasted all of 2 seconds as I was sitting next to them. These have all been over a pigs ear. They now only get treats in cages or the kennel.

Can you not cage them when you need to leave them. Ricky and Gizmo have a cage each and Robbie get's the run of the house.

 

[Tony Taylor]

I don't know what to suggest, i think there are all kinds of issue's here.  I think both dogs are at fault and to me it sounds like you have no control over either of them (not just Bean).  Do any of them actually know that YOU are the boss and not them? They're running all over you from the sounds of things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

both dogs are at fault, i disagree, owner is at fault, some folks arent suitable as dog owners, and we have a typical example here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No what i meant was from postings Bean is the one getting all the flack, when it isn't all down to her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Haven't ploughed through it all so forgive me if i'm repeating someone else's advice. Think Vicky hit the nail on the head, all the bitch's we've had have had a spat. Dogs are a matriacal (sp) society & bitch's are always vying to be alpha. As Vicky says show them YOU'RE the alpha bitch. At the risk of sounding somewhat un-pc have you given any of them a clip? When they're cowering from you they won't have the sass to brawl each other,

Terry Smith

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

i would never ever agree with that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well I agree with Vicky and Terry but didn't respond to this thread since the outcome from certain quaters would be all to predictable.

Interestingly both these people have had households with multiple dogs present for many years and AFAIK don't have and haven't had problems. Since they both have the requiste experience perhaps others should take notice.

I won't stand for kennel fighting, which is what this is. If you don't clamp down early a feud will develope and you won't be able to control the situation. Having experience of dogs that are both willing and capable of killing others in kennel fights I find the prevelant PC attitude risible. Fat lot of use are shakers and harsh words when dogs are ripping lumps out of each other.

Fact is dog hierachy isn't based around PC rules and there can only be one boss in the household and that ought to be the owner. Those that can't bring themselves round to controling their charges for emotive reasons perhaps are unsuitable as dog owners.

So to repeat the advice from Vicky and Terry; show these two who's boss in whatever way they understand.

 

[kim & Tilly]

I don't know what to suggest, i think there are all kinds of issue's here.  I think both dogs are at fault and to me it sounds like you have no control over either of them (not just Bean).  Do any of them actually know that YOU are the boss and not them? They're running all over you from the sounds of things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

both dogs are at fault, i disagree, owner is at fault, some folks arent suitable as dog owners, and we have a typical example here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No what i meant was from postings Bean is the one getting all the flack, when it isn't all down to her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Haven't ploughed through it all so forgive me if i'm repeating someone else's advice. Think Vicky hit the nail on the head, all the bitch's we've had have had a spat. Dogs are a matriacal (sp) society & bitch's are always vying to be alpha. As Vicky says show them YOU'RE the alpha bitch. At the risk of sounding somewhat un-pc have you given any of them a clip? When they're cowering from you they won't have the sass to brawl each other,

Terry Smith

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

i would never ever agree with that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well I agree with Vicky and Terry but didn't respond to this thread since the outcome from certain quaters would be all to predictable.

Interestingly both these people have had households with multiple dogs present for many years and AFAIK don't have and haven't had problems. Since they both have the requiste experience perhaps others should take notice.

I won't stand for kennel fighting, which is what this is. If you don't clamp down early a feud will develope and you won't be able to control the situation. Having experience of dogs that are both willing and capable of killing others in kennel fights I find the prevelant PC attitude risible. Fat lot of use are shakers and harsh words when dogs are ripping lumps out of each other.

Fact is dog hierachy isn't based around PC rules and there can only be one boss in the household and that ought to be the owner. Those that can't bring themselves round to controling their charges for emotive reasons perhaps are unsuitable as dog owners.

So to repeat the advice from Vicky and Terry; show these two who's boss in whatever way they understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Could you give me some examples of what you mean, for the following things -

1) Out on walks, i let both dogs off, at first tilly would run across the field, now she waits till Bean is let off and dives on her, pinning her down and growling at her....if i call her she just ignores me

2) Feeding, i have always fed them both at the same time, first it was in one bowl now seperate bowls, tilly eats hers then pushes bean out the way and eats hers as well

3) when bean was biting amy it was in an excitable/carried away bite - i used to shout no at her and she would just bark back at me. then i used the shaker, she was better but still gets a bit over excited

What things do you think i should do?

 

[wild whippies]

1. She's ignoring you because your of no interest and as far as she's concerned no relevance to her. She's now at the point where she's waiting for Bean to be released because it's far more fun to bully her pack mate than free run across a field. I would stop free running together, walk the dogs seperately and whether it be through balls / treats /chastising, ensure that recall is reinforced 100%.

2. Dominant dog in my pack gets fed first (that's after the humans mind) I thought this was common knowledge? Feeding one before the other really does give the underdog issues above it's limitations. The fact that one dog can happily steal from another whilst under your observation shows they have no respect for their pack member or you for that matter.

3. The shaker worked because like a smack / a shout or scream etc it's an immediate diversionary tactic that stops the dog in it's tracks and forces them to pay attention to you. TBH I thought shakers were only supposed to be used under the guidance of a therapist, so I wouldn't like to speculate why this is ceasing to work now as it could be from lack of use or even overuse or just use under the wrong circumstances.

I'm no expert, I've no qualifications this is just my own perceptions of just 3 situations there's probably a whole pile more issues going on under your nose that your failing to recognise (please don't take this as a criticism) this is why I think you'd benefit from someone with expertise coming in and looking at the situation.

 

[EMILY]

I think to a certain extent some of the problems you are experiencing are down to how you have been doing things for example, feeding them both from the same bowl originally and then feeding in separate:- It is no wonder that Tilly thinks she can just push Bean out of the way and eat her food too - she was orignally allowed to eat from the same bowl as her after all! I would personally prefer to feed from separate bowls from the out set and put the bowls at a reasonable distance apart to avoid pinching of food etc. Your best course of action now would be to stand by whilst feeding takes place and scold Tilly if she trys to takes Beans food - she will soon learn what is what.

Secondly, the issue with the walking and letting off the lead - I would keep Tilly on the lead for now until she can have a proper walk with Bean without being aggresive or too over powering - this sounds like a jelousy thing combined with a "hey lets play" manner - put her on the lead until she can behave in Beans company.

Whenever I have had a pup that play bites I have always said "no2 in a loud voice as you have done. However, if this hasn't worked and the pup still bites I see nothing wrong in giving the pup a small TAP on the nose to bring the point across - this works very well and makes the pup realise that you are no playing about and you do mean them to stop biting. A rolled up newspaper used to TAP also works wonders and you will soon get to a stage very quickly when the pup misbehaves you can reach for the rolled paper and the pup suddenly resorts to being a little angel!!

I wish you all the best of luck with Bean and Tilly - it is a worrying time for you but I am sure you will do what's best in the end for you and your girls.

 

[saraquele]

HOW ABOUT TRYING PUTTING TILLY ON A LONG LINE AND WHEN SHE GOES FOR BEAN PULL HER OFF WITH A LOUD "NO" ??????

FEEDING I WOULD DO IN SEPERATE ROOMS .

BEST OF LUCK IN ANY OUTCOME , YOU LIVE WITH THE DOGS AND KNOW THEM BEST AND IT IS YOU WHO HAS TO LIVE WITH THEM TOO , GOOD LUCK IN WHATEVER HAPPENS :huggles: :luck:

 

[Joanna]

1. She's ignoring you because your of no interest and as far as she's concerned no relevance to her. She's now at the point where she's waiting for Bean to be released because it's far more fun to bully her pack mate than free run across a field. I would stop free running together, walk the dogs seperately and whether it be through balls / treats /chastising, ensure that recall is reinforced 100%.2. Dominant dog in my pack gets fed first (that's after the humans mind) I thought this was common knowledge? Feeding one before the other really does give the underdog issues above it's limitations. The fact that one dog can happily steal from another whilst under your observation shows they have no respect for their pack member or you for that matter.

3. The shaker worked because like a smack / a shout or scream etc it's an immediate diversionary tactic that stops the dog in it's tracks and forces them to pay attention to you. TBH I thought shakers were only supposed to be used under the guidance of a therapist, so I wouldn't like to speculate why this is ceasing to work now as it could be from lack of use or even overuse or just use under the wrong circumstances.

I'm no expert, I've no qualifications this is just my own perceptions of just 3 situations there's probably a whole pile more issues going on under your nose that your failing to recognise (please don't take this as a criticism) this is why I think you'd benefit from someone with expertise coming in and looking at the situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well said Jacquie. In my humble opinion, getting advice at ground level from an expert would be my first move. Phone your vet for a recommended behaviourist Kim, as has been suggested to get some proffesional input. Every-one can speculate and give advice, but qualified behaviourists who can view your situation will work with you over a period of time until the situation has resolved. The other benifit of having some-one observe the situation is that if they feel that the situation is unresolvable, they will tell you.

Go and make a phone call :thumbsup:

 

[kim & Tilly]

1. She's ignoring you because your of no interest and as far as she's concerned no relevance to her. She's now at the point where she's waiting for Bean to be released because it's far more fun to bully her pack mate than free run across a field. I would stop free running together, walk the dogs seperately and whether it be through balls / treats /chastising, ensure that recall is reinforced 100%.2. Dominant dog in my pack gets fed first (that's after the humans mind) I thought this was common knowledge? Feeding one before the other really does give the underdog issues above it's limitations. The fact that one dog can happily steal from another whilst under your observation shows they have no respect for their pack member or you for that matter.

3. The shaker worked because like a smack / a shout or scream etc it's an immediate diversionary tactic that stops the dog in it's tracks and forces them to pay attention to you. TBH I thought shakers were only supposed to be used under the guidance of a therapist, so I wouldn't like to speculate why this is ceasing to work now as it could be from lack of use or even overuse or just use under the wrong circumstances.

I'm no expert, I've no qualifications this is just my own perceptions of just 3 situations there's probably a whole pile more issues going on under your nose that your failing to recognise (please don't take this as a criticism) this is why I think you'd benefit from someone with expertise coming in and looking at the situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

This is really interesting....with this sort of advice i have somewhere to start...

Just one question if tilly is acting like the Dominant dog do i keep her there or feed bean first, to change things (the family always eat first)

I am getting amy(10) to feed them so she moves up the ranks

I will give the vet a ring, or does anyone have a recomendation near bristol??

 

[EMILY]

Kim - Ann Nash from Dursley is a dog behavourist and is VERY good. If you are interested will try and look out her number for you. Edited to say - Celestine Dog Training/behavourists are also very good - have their own website and are based in Bristol.

 

[pollyanna]

I haven't read all of the answers on here (due to my own physical inability to sit at computer too long), but I know that some dogs, like some people, just don't get on and nothing you do will make any difference. It isn't that you are a bad owner or that either of the dogs are bad dogs.

Seems to me you've been offered the ideal solution by Hannah's generosity. It would give you all some breathing space and if Bean does need to be rehomed, there couldn't be a better place for her. Also, the pain of losing her might be a little easier if you know she is safe and dear Tilly will be able to have you to herself. Like one of mine, she sounds like a dog who just wants to be the only dog.

I hope things work out for all of you. Janet

 

[~whitecross whippets~]

I don't know what to suggest, i think there are all kinds of issue's here.  I think both dogs are at fault and to me it sounds like you have no control over either of them (not just Bean).  Do any of them actually know that YOU are the boss and not them? They're running all over you from the sounds of things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

both dogs are at fault, i disagree, owner is at fault, some folks arent suitable as dog owners, and we have a typical example here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

No what i meant was from postings Bean is the one getting all the flack, when it isn't all down to her.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Haven't ploughed through it all so forgive me if i'm repeating someone else's advice. Think Vicky hit the nail on the head, all the bitch's we've had have had a spat. Dogs are a matriacal (sp) society & bitch's are always vying to be alpha. As Vicky says show them YOU'RE the alpha bitch. At the risk of sounding somewhat un-pc have you given any of them a clip? When they're cowering from you they won't have the sass to brawl each other,

Terry Smith

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

i would never ever agree with that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well I agree with Vicky and Terry but didn't respond to this thread since the outcome from certain quaters would be all to predictable.

Interestingly both these people have had households with multiple dogs present for many years and AFAIK don't have and haven't had problems. Since they both have the requiste experience perhaps others should take notice.

I won't stand for kennel fighting, which is what this is. If you don't clamp down early a feud will develope and you won't be able to control the situation. Having experience of dogs that are both willing and capable of killing others in kennel fights I find the prevelant PC attitude risible. Fat lot of use are shakers and harsh words when dogs are ripping lumps out of each other.

Fact is dog hierachy isn't based around PC rules and there can only be one boss in the household and that ought to be the owner. Those that can't bring themselves round to controling their charges for emotive reasons perhaps are unsuitable as dog owners.

So to repeat the advice from Vicky and Terry; show these two who's boss in whatever way they understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

i will NEVER agree that hitting a dog is appropriate....but i dont agree with hitting kids either

but everyone has a different way and each to their own...its just my opinion :thumbsup:

 

[Tony Taylor]

Could you give me some examples of what you mean, for the following things -
1) Out on walks, i let both dogs off, at first tilly would run across the field, now she waits till Bean is let off and dives on her, pinning her down and growling at her....if i call her she just ignores me

2) Feeding, i have always fed them both at the same time, first it was in one bowl now seperate bowls, tilly eats hers then pushes bean out the way and eats hers as well

3) when bean was biting amy it was in an excitable/carried away bite - i used to shout no at her and she would just bark back at me. then i used the shaker, she was better but still gets a bit over excited

What things do you think i should do?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

1) Out on a walk it's difficult but if you can get to tilly while shes attacking bean I would chastise her there and then; She'd get a smack. I would also physicaly remove her off Bean and leash her, leaving Bean free and rollock her while on the lead. The difficulty lies in the fact that if you're harsh to a free running dog it stops returning, Never the less they need to know you have authority even when they are free. In reality you need to assert your authority 24/7 and it's a lot easier when at home. Simple steps involve making the dog obey your every command, even if your not really bothered if they do obey or not and you think making them do as you say is more trouble than it's worth.. Do not allow them to ignore you at any time. Remember you can smack a dog without causing any pain at all, you don't have to hit them hard but a simple smack will just get their attention and stop them ignoring you if all else fails

2) I'm sure you're a lot bigger than Tilly so don't let her eat Beans food. Stand there watching them eat and if Tilly tries to leave her food for Beans physical restrain her and tell her NO and mean it. If Tilly finishes first remove her from the feeding area so bean can eat in peace. It's also worth feeding the slower eaters fractionaly before the faster ones so that finish time is roughly the same Hierachy amongst the dogs isn't relevant here. what is relevant is that they both understand you have authority over feeding time and how it is conducted.

3) Sorry but if any of mine bit my children it would be lucky to get away with a good hiding. I can appreciate it may have been non agressive but the dog needs to know biting is totaly unacceptable in any circumstance. Even growling or snarling isn't allowed.

These dogs need to be made to do what you want when you want. For the most part physical punishment is unnessecery. Most dogs never need a real smack at any time but what they do need is to understand you are in charge and realise they can't ignore you without penalty.

 

[kim & Tilly]

Midlander Keith and Stormy dog, just like to cause trouble......

They have no good advice, unless they need help. :- "

They wind people up with their posts and sit back and watch, they are no better than trolls who ruin the site for everyone...

I dont mind being critisided if im doing something wrong, but back it up by giving some good advice i can act on.....i dare you