Bean And Tilly Again

[~Helen~]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

I am extremely pleased to see the back of Keith -  fingers crossed. In between the offensive and vulgar posts from him  there have been some fascinating and useful advice which I am sure will help more than just Kim.:luck: Kim, you obviously want to sort out the problems you have with the girls. :luck:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Yep that is my top priority, i have had some great ideas, and some wonderful and kind PM's :huggles:

 

I still may take 'someone' up on Beanie having a holiday, just so i can work on tilly one to one...but i think i may be able to work things out, if i work really hard with both of them... o

 

Took advice when feeding tonight, bean had hers in the dish in the cage locked in and tilly had hers in the kitchen, when they had both finished took the bowls away (tilly would have normally had what bean left) threw away the little that was left...end off

 

At tea tonight (fish and chips) would have normally given them the left overs, nope went in the bin - tillys face was

 

Made them sit to come in from outside o

 

Have been seperating them if they fight :sweating:

 

and now they are curled up on Deb's snuggle bed snoring :wub:

 

God knows what tomorrow will bring :sweating:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

This sounds like such a good start :luck: It's exhausting keeping on top of things like that every day, but you're doing really well by the sound of it :thumbsup:

 

[Boffy01]

I have stayed out of it today as I didn't like the way it was headed. :angry: But since then I see things have indeed escalated so here goes. :rant:

I think it's a real shame that someone asks for help & ends up getting abuse and disgusting comments!

I only hope that it hasn't put anyone off joining the forum.

Personally I would rather try to help someone that has the sense to ask than abuse them, after all it's the dog that ends up suffering because their owner was too shy or frightened to ask a question. Also Kim was obliviously distressed about the situation & you just made it a hundred times worse for her. SHAME on you! :rant:

Anyway rant over.

It sounds like Kim has received some good advice here today & I sincerely hope that you can get this problem sorted out for you & your dogs. I know you can do it! When you do please feel free to post and let us ALL know. It will be the best way to put someone back in their place. :luck: :luck: :luck:

Michelle

 

[Trish]

good luck kim :luck: :luck: :luck: ,hopw it works out for you all :thumbsup:

 

[kim & Tilly]

I have stayed out of it today as I didn't like the way it was headed.  :angry: But since then I see things have indeed escalated so here goes.  :rant: I think it's a real shame that someone asks for help & ends up getting abuse and disgusting comments!

I only hope that it hasn't put anyone off joining the forum.

Personally I would rather try to help someone that has the sense to ask than abuse them, after all it's the dog that ends up suffering because their owner was too shy or frightened to ask a question. Also Kim was obliviously distressed about the situation & you just made it a hundred times worse for her. SHAME on you!  :rant:

Anyway rant over.

It sounds like Kim has received some good advice here today & I sincerely hope that you can get this problem sorted out for you & your dogs. I know you can do it! When you do please feel free to post and let us ALL know. It will be the best way to put someone back in their place.  :luck:   :luck:   :luck:

Michelle

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

[SIZE=14pt]You know what i have had about 15 PM's from people offering help off site, people who are in the same situation or been through it, but who just didnt want to post on here... [/SIZE]

 

Looking back there was only one who caused the trouble, and hopefuly the troll (which if you look closely at his posts, was what he really was) is gone.... :rant:

 

I had some home truths (thanks Lesley :b ) and and lots of good advice some people agreed on and some people didnt. But thats what makes K9 so great. :cheers:

 

I am lucky i can shrugg off the nasty comments and just sift through to the good, because if i was a newbie i would be long gone...

 

Thanks to all

 

And i really hope this thread helps some of those who are in the situation which im in. You never know where you put dogs together if they will like each other or not. Even the most experienced struggle. :sweating:

 

[quintessence]

Onwards and Upwards Kim, we're all rooting for you and Tilly and Bean. :huggles:

Jenny

 

[Mark Roberts]

I've removed several post that I found offensive/abusive to other members.

if the thread stay on topic from here on i'll leave it open but if it goes into another slanging match i'll close it and leave the genuinly concerned members to help via PM/e/mail.

 

[jezza]

I'm glad that you're feeling a bit better now Kim. It will get a lot easier, it has for me and I'm the sort of person some 'person' would say is not 'fit' to own dogs :- " I have absolutely no patience!!! Or at least I didn't, I'm a changed person now since seeking help (from a dog trainer btw, not a shrink :lol: ).

Best advice she gave me was the three Cs, confident, calm and consistent at all times. Never back down and give them that last chip or they'll take the p*** out of you forever

Good luck :luck:

 

[kim & Tilly]

I've removed several post that I found offensive/abusive to other members.
if the thread stay on topic from here on i'll leave it open but if it goes into another slanging match i'll close it and leave the genuinly concerned members to help via PM/e/mail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks mark, but i think the only problem came from one person (which personally i think should be banned)

If all the nasty stuff has been removed could this be put in FAQ? under fighting or something

 

[Mark Roberts]

it could be usefull for it to be added to the FAQ, i'm sure Helen will move it over if theres not already a thread of this nature.

Good luck with the dogs.

 

[Janimal]

I've removed several post that I found offensive/abusive to other members.
if the thread stay on topic from here on i'll leave it open but if it goes into another slanging match i'll close it and leave the genuinly concerned members to help via PM/e/mail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks mark, but i think the only problem came from one person (which personally i think should be banned)

If all the nasty stuff has been removed could this be put in FAQ? under fighting or something

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Brilliant :thumbsup: at least we can read the thread properley now - without the horrible comments.

Good Luck Kim, hope things get easier for you. :luck:

 

[Joanna]

Glad things are improving. I think it is amazing how such simple changes can alter a situation. To be honest Kim, I think you had lost your confidence, and by seeing improvements on a daily basis, life will improve. Don't give up on the idea of a behaviourist, I think having some-one walk out with you may help with dealing with flash points. Again, you just need to improve your self-esteem. As you feel better and braver, the dogs will pick up on your new attitude and start to place you in the top spot..........That is where you need to be and they need to realise that. Take things one day at a time, feeding and not tit bitting is a good place to start, when you have that licked, move on to another area with the advice you have been given.......... :luck: :luck: :luck:

Just one more thing, from my own situation I noticed that when I got a second dog, I found it much harder to give him basic training as the first one was always there wanting a reward too (w00t) . With Bean, try and make sure she has one to one time to learn the basic commands without any distractions, even if it means kenneling Tilly whilst you do it, it is something I didn't do in Fynn's puppy stage and am having to work extra hard with now :- "

 

[Paula Roberts]

Very true Joanna, they do need individual time, we have found with seperating our 3 there is no trouble at all now, good luck keep up the hard work Kim, sounds like things are getting better already. :thumbsup:

 

[Judy]

I've just made a lot of posts invisible. If one of them is yours it doesn't mean there was necessarilly anything wrong with it except that you may have quoted one of the offending posts.

 

[Vicky]

Just posted a big long reply then had a power cut :rant: :lol:

I'll post what i do Kim, works for me, might not work for you or others.

1. I don't let off dogs together when they're all fired up, dogs going full pelt at 30+mph (ok 20mph if your name's Ziggy) is just not good, you're asking for fighting or a serious injury. They all go off individually until they've calmed down a bit, then they'd get let off together, anyone buggering about goes straight back on the lead and get told off (i make sure they know i mean business too). All mine know i'm the boss, not one of them takes the ****, bad recall is a major pet hate and they know they just wouldn't get away with it. I also make a point of calling them back individually every so often for a reward (only a simple ear tickle or a pat), i find that they'll come back themselves now if i haven't done it for a while.

2. Bowl swapping is a big no no. I'd have world war three in my house if i allowed that, not only that but it encourages dogs to scoff their food so that they can get to the others. All mine have their own place and they get fed in a certain order (nothing to do with hierachy - in fact i'd go as far as to do it in the opposite order) Cara 1st, Ella 2nd, Ziggy 3rd, Jude 4th, Kit 5th. I stay with them whilst they eat and once they've finished the bowls get taken up straight away. SIMPLE!

3. Growling / Snapping at kids and they get a FIRM no, slap or they get held down on the floor, easily nocks them down a peg or two if they start getting cocky.

If you get into a routine of keeping on top of them you make things so much simpler for yourself, it's pretty much like a baby, get it into a routine and it's a piece of cake compared to struggling and doing things as it's needed.

When we were training our Springer pups someone said "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" it's worth keeping in mind!

 

[Whippets Rule]

Ok i agree with much of what has been said and would like to just add what i do plus random advice if it will help....

1) totally agree with the feeding in a set place and apart...my five dogs are fed in an order and designated place...ie put down bowls in order....

Badger(1st)kitchen

Woody(2nd)hall

Bryn(3rd)bottom of stairs,ten feet further down hall

Parker(4th)dining room

Zoe(last)conservatory

if they get a treat ie pigs ear or whatever they all retreat to a place alone and i watch to make sure/or shut doors so they enjoy in peace.

In our house there is a clear hierachy among the dogs(obv we humans are alpha),basically they are fed in order of seniority and given treats and leads put on/taken off,always in order of seniority.

ok now the random bit.....observe both Tilly and Bean and try to be as objective as possible...watch carefully their body language,especially look for subtle behaviours.

who goes through doorways first ie does one hold back slightly and let the other through.

does one get up off the sofa when the other wants to sit there.

does one approach the other and instigate grooming/licking/sniffing in a sociable way.

when you watch for these things,look to see who capitulates the most.

Sometimes trouble can be made worse if sides are taken and an owner feels they favour(even if only slightly)one dog in particular......basically if an owner wrongly thinks dog x is top dog and promotes that dog first,when actually dog z(on observation)is the natural top dog there can be worse problems because dog x cannot cope with this artificially elevated position and tends to be overly forceful and also give mixed body language to the other dog...who thinks well actually i'm the boss etc hope this makes sense.

what i'm trying to say is,if a dog cannot cope with the position in which we put it,it makes it much harder for it to communicate correctly with its friends.

just be sure(either with help from another experienced owner or a behaviourist)which dog is REALLY the natural top dog of the two.....once you have that right it's much easier to take control.

Also(and you'll know this anyway),be firm and be kind but you can never be fair...fairness isn't something a dog understands.....pack position is everything and once a dog understands it's place it will be a much happier and easier to control animal.

Use a strong voice and good body language when dealing with your dogs to make them understand you,whether telling off or praising.

Always be consistent and always make the dogs look to you first for food,love,play,reward etc....make yourself so very very interesting to them....even dress as a cat if you have to (w00t) ,by doing this you never have to use force to get your dog to obey...they want to obey because you are always rewarding and interesting.

I have four males and one evil bitch and i've never had to use physical punishment or restraint on any of them even though they have had their ups and downs...they've always known their place and they all look to me or my husband as alpha....a good alpha never has to be nasty,the mere threat is enough.

hope that all makes sense...

otherwise

take me outside and shoot me :b (w00t)

 

[Vicky]

a good alpha never has to be nasty,the mere threat is enough.
hope that all makes sense...

All sounds like good advice.

I'm a bit confused here though, how would a dog feel threatened (and the threat be enough) if you never showed it what to be threatened by in the first place? A bitch would hold it's pups round the throat to show them who's boss, they then know not to overstep the mark.

 

[Whippets Rule]

a good alpha never has to be nasty,the mere threat is enough.
hope that all makes sense...

All sounds like good advice.

I'm a bit confused here though, how would a dog feel threatened (and the threat be enough) if you never showed it what to be threatened by in the first place? A bitch would hold it's pups round the throat to show them who's boss, they then know not to overstep the mark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

the idea isn't to make the dog feel threatened as such(just poorly worded on my part sorry) but the dog already knows exactly where it stands and respects your authority sufficiently to not push its luck.

ie if you sound and look like you mean it, most dogs won't chance it,if that makes sense.

with our dogs often the worst thing you can do(especially with the boxer(evil bitch (w00t) )is deprive them/her of your company,if she misbehaved she would be told a firm NO but if she pushed her luck she would have five minutes time out,outside away from everyone. Let her back in five minutes later and adrenalin has calmed and she is good and she realised there was a direct consequence of disobedience.

Nowadays a firm NO and only very rarely a repeated NO is all it takes..but then i'm actually quite scarey looking to most people so maybe that has more to do with it :b :lol: they know i mean what i say because from the word go i have been consistent and they ARE allowed to do certain things but they are definitely NOT allowed to do others and they know it.

 

[Whippets Rule]

a good alpha never has to be nasty,the mere threat is enough.
hope that all makes sense...

All sounds like good advice.

I'm a bit confused here though, how would a dog feel threatened (and the threat be enough) if you never showed it what to be threatened by in the first place? A bitch would hold it's pups round the throat to show them who's boss, they then know not to overstep the mark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

sorry forgot to reply to last bit.

a bitch may well hold a pup by the throat but here we are looking at adult dogs and the same treatment should be dealt with much much more cautiously because if you pin the wrong dog or shake or whatever you can make an aggression problem much worse and also put yourself at risk.

we are not dogs so therefore deal with our animals in a human way but in a manner which a dog can understand....dogs are naturally social animals and for my pack seperation seems to be the trick that works xsorryx

 

[kim & Tilly]

Ok i agree with much of what has been said and would like to just add what i do plus random advice if it will help....

1) totally agree with the feeding in a set place and apart...my five dogs are fed in an order and designated place...ie put down bowls in order....

Badger(1st)kitchen

Woody(2nd)hall

Bryn(3rd)bottom of stairs,ten feet further down hall

Parker(4th)dining room

Zoe(last)conservatory

if they get a treat ie pigs ear or whatever they all retreat to a place alone and i watch to make sure/or shut doors so they enjoy in peace.

In our house there is a clear hierachy among the dogs(obv we humans are alpha),basically they are fed in order of seniority and given treats and leads put on/taken off,always in order of seniority.

ok now the random bit.....observe both Tilly and Bean and try to be as objective as possible...watch carefully their body language,especially look for subtle behaviours.

who goes through doorways first ie does one hold back slightly and let the other through. Tilly goes through first, bean holds back

does one get up off the sofa when the other wants to sit there. Bean will move if tilly wants to sit down in her space

does one approach the other and instigate grooming/licking/sniffing in a sociable way. Bean will lick tillys ears and feet, before sitting near her

when you watch for these things,look to see who capitulates the most.

Sometimes trouble can be made worse if sides are taken and an owner feels they favour(even if only slightly)one dog in particular......basically if an owner wrongly thinks dog x is top dog and promotes that dog first,when actually dog z(on observation)is the natural top dog there can be worse problems because dog x cannot cope with this artificially elevated position and tends to be overly forceful and also give mixed body language to the other dog...who thinks well actually i'm the boss etc hope this makes sense.

what i'm trying to say is,if a dog cannot cope with the position in which we put it,it makes it much harder for it to communicate correctly with its friends.

just be sure(either with help from another experienced owner or a behaviourist)which dog is REALLY the natural top dog of the two.....once you have that right it's much easier to take control.

Also(and you'll know this anyway),be firm and be kind but you can never be fair...fairness isn't something a dog understands.....pack position is everything and once a dog understands it's place it will be a much happier and easier to control animal.

Use a strong voice and good body language when dealing with your dogs to make them understand you,whether telling off or praising.

Always be consistent and always make the dogs look to you first for food,love,play,reward etc....make yourself so very very interesting to them....even dress as a cat if you have to (w00t) ,by doing this you never have to use force to get your dog to obey...they want to obey because you are always rewarding and interesting.

I have four males and one evil bitch and i've never had to use physical punishment or restraint on any of them even though they have had their ups and downs...they've always known their place and they all look to me or my husband as alpha....a good alpha never has to be nasty,the mere threat is enough.

hope that all makes sense...

otherwise

take me outside and shoot me :b   (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

 

[kris]

wow!ive only just seen this thread and after reading through it all i can see theres been words! (w00t) id like to say that considering this is a dog site,people who are novices ought to be able to ask the more experienced owners/trainers on here for advice without getting slated!we all had to learn ,none of us were born brilliant you know. :thumbsup: owning a dog is a learning curve,were all learning all the time!ive owned very dominant breeds all my life,dobermanns,terriers,shibas.none of which are an easy breed to own or train.ive had bad fights with bitches and stud dogs,they will kill one another if they are left to their own devices.and let me tell you when two dobermann bitches kick off if you think that talking to them will stop a fight youre sadly mistaken! (w00t) their sole intent at that moment is to kill.and they mean business.you have to step in and sort it out.and yes in our house im the biggest bitch and all my dogs know who the boss is.they have to .at the end of the day they are animals not humans.im sorry kim has been given a rough ride by some. she is obviously trying so hard to keep her dogs and doesnt want to part with them.so for me she ought to be given every bit of help and encouragement.theres been alot of good advice given here,i think the main thing with multiple dog households is that you HAVE to establish who is in charge.it doesnt mean beating the hell out of the dog,that wont work either.were supposed to be the more intelligent of the species so lets use that intelligence. and you also have to be able to back it up with a short sharp reprimand if neccessary.i dont mean a beating but i think a quick smack,to bring the dog up with a shock can sometimes work wonders.and it can help establish in the dogs mind just who is in charge.an alpha female in a pack will assert her authority if she feels its being challenged. :thumbsup: good luck kim, :luck: :luck: :luck: and to those who didnt bother to post any advice or help,shame