British And American Whippets

[Natalia]

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What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

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I think it would be very interesting to read about English system of educating judges.

 

[T Hoare]

What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it would be very interesting to read about English system of educating judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Who is going to answer this one?

I will make a start.

To award CC's there are 2 ways/routes.

One way and in my opinion the best way, is to be asked by a club/society to judge at their champ show. So long as you have acrued enough classes, passed the seminars, stewarded, been showing & judging for plenty of years, got stud book numbers you are part of the way there. You then have to be voted on at breed Council and then passed by Kennel Club.

I'm sure there is something I have forgotten.

The other way is the A2 system.

 

[Cartman]

[ What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

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​

While at it, to judge whippets & the Hound group in England is?

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Can you explain your question a little further, I am not sure what your asking??

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​

What is the system to become a whippet or hound judge in England?

 

[T Hoare]

[ What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

While at it, to judge whippets & the Hound group in England is?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Can you explain your question a little further, I am not sure what your asking??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

What is the system to become a whippet or hound judge in England?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks, I wondered if that was your request. :thumbsup:

 

[T Hoare]

Do you mind going of the thread and discussing our judging system Patsy?

 

[dolly]

What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it would be very interesting to read about English system of educating judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Who is going to answer this one?

I will make a start.

To award CC's there are 2 ways/routes.

One way and in my opinion the best way, is to be asked by a club/society to judge at their champ show. So long as you have acrued enough classes, passed the seminars, stewarded, been showing & judging for plenty of years, got stud book numbers you are part of the way there. You then have to be voted on at breed Council and then passed by Kennel Club.

I'm sure there is something I have forgotten.

The other way is the A2 system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I believe most clubs require you to have had judges at least 350+ whippets, along with what tracey mentioned above :- "

 

[seaspot_run]

What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it would be very interesting to read about English system of educating judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I'm not the best person to ask since I've not been through the process (yet). I am thinking about going for it at the end of this year. I've done all that I need to do to apply, but the constraints and expense is a major detraction for me. For one thing, I enjoy being able to help out my friends at ringside, and if I get my license, I can't do that anymore.

The AKC rulebook says that anyone with the ability to demonstrate expertise and who is in good standing may apply, but for most of the decades I've been involved, the rule of thumb has been 10-3-3...

Ten years in the sport as an exhibitor.

Three litters bred (and raised on your own property)

Three champions bred/owned.

That's in your first breed. Now, if your involvement is just in one breed, you get your license in that breed first. And you will usually also apply for Junior Showmanship, since that is a way to help pay for your travel expenses to do your first sets of assignments which are called "provisional". Provisional judges are expected to assume most of the cost of getting to and from their provisional assignments, and since they usually do very few breeds, they aren't compensated very well, which is another reason I've been hesitant to apply as it is a huge financial commitment.

You must submit an application and you have to have a certain amount of prior experience being a ring steward and judging matches, sweepstakes, futurity, etc. A letter of recommendation from an AKC Rep who has watched you do an assignment helps. Then, your name is published in AKC's magazine, and it's rather like the wedding ceremony moment where the minister asks that if anyone has any objection to the marriage, speak now or forever hold your peace, and someone stands up and says that Mr. Rochester has a wife yet living and therefore he cannot marry Jane Eyre, and all :blink: and...Well, ok that doesn't actually happen, but if you have skeletons in your closet or people who think you are completely mad when you step into the ring to judge, the AKC will hear about it and if they get enough such letters, they are likely not to allow your application to continue.

My mother was an AKC judge and had about 15 breeds when she retired after 10 years of active judging. In her first provisionals (and she was able to get three breeds and Juniors right away), she often had to fly from Florida to Idaho, or California, to do her assignments. It was incredibly expensive. That's for breeds you have a lot of experience breeding and showing.

Provisional judges judge with the AKC Representative watching them. They aren't so much looking to see what dogs you put up as they are that you are in command of your ring, your ring procedure is good and easy for the exhibitors and ringside to follow, your judge's book markings are clean and in order, and you are able to complete your assignments in the time you are supposed to be doing them without looking hesitant, confused, or indecisive. IOW, you can put up some real junk if you look really good, crisp, decisive, and efficient doing it.

Once you have satisfied your provisional in your original breed/breeds, you can go for more breeds. For this, you have to nowadays put on your application that you attended judge's education at a National Specialty or that you went to a breed-specific judge's seminar, or that you were mentored by several top breeders. I've done the mentoring bit. Sometimes, it's as little as a would-be Whippet judge approaches me at a show and asks me to show them my dogs I have entered, let them go over the dogs, hear my critique, and have a broad, general discussion of the points of the standard as they apply to my dogs. Sometimes, it's having them come to my house and see all my dogs of various ages, even the old retired ones.

Now, if you are a professional handler who has finished lots and lots of dogs for other people, you can rack up new breeds VERY quickly. The single breed breeder, no matter how successful they were in their single breed, has a long road ahead of them to become a judge of multiple breeds, but the handler who may never have raised a single litter and only just been paid to show dogs already determined to be show quality by their breeders can FLY on through to getting many breeds approved in just a few years.

Once you are approved for most breeds in a group, you are approved to judge that group, and once you have a group and some breeds in other groups, you can be approved to judge Best in Show.

There are a very small number of judges over here who are genuine All-Arounders--people who are licensed in every single breed there is. That is a very long process and if that is your goal, you should get going when you are still in your 30's.

People who can do several groups and all the breeds in those groups are much in demand, and I will tell you, you can make a nice living judging dogs in the USA if you are licensed for most of the breeds. But it is an expensive process getting there unless you have been an all-breed professional handler.

Karen Lee

 

[UKUSA]

What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it would be very interesting to read about English system of educating judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I'm not the best person to ask since I've not been through the process (yet). I am thinking about going for it at the end of this year. I've done all that I need to do to apply, but the constraints and expense is a major detraction for me. For one thing, I enjoy being able to help out my friends at ringside, and if I get my license, I can't do that anymore.

The AKC rulebook says that anyone with the ability to demonstrate expertise and who is in good standing may apply, but for most of the decades I've been involved, the rule of thumb has been 10-3-3...

Ten years in the sport as an exhibitor.

Three litters bred (and raised on your own property)

Three champions bred/owned.

That's in your first breed. Now, if your involvement is just in one breed, you get your license in that breed first. And you will usually also apply for Junior Showmanship, since that is a way to help pay for your travel expenses to do your first sets of assignments which are called "provisional". Provisional judges are expected to assume most of the cost of getting to and from their provisional assignments, and since they usually do very few breeds, they aren't compensated very well, which is another reason I've been hesitant to apply as it is a huge financial commitment.

You must submit an application and you have to have a certain amount of prior experience being a ring steward and judging matches, sweepstakes, futurity, etc. A letter of recommendation from an AKC Rep who has watched you do an assignment helps. Then, your name is published in AKC's magazine, and it's rather like the wedding ceremony moment where the minister asks that if anyone has any objection to the marriage, speak now or forever hold your peace, and someone stands up and says that Mr. Rochester has a wife yet living and therefore he cannot marry Jane Eyre, and all :blink: and...Well, ok that doesn't actually happen, but if you have skeletons in your closet or people who think you are completely mad when you step into the ring to judge, the AKC will hear about it and if they get enough such letters, they are likely not to allow your application to continue.

My mother was an AKC judge and had about 15 breeds when she retired after 10 years of active judging. In her first provisionals (and she was able to get three breeds and Juniors right away), she often had to fly from Florida to Idaho, or California, to do her assignments. It was incredibly expensive. That's for breeds you have a lot of experience breeding and showing.

Provisional judges judge with the AKC Representative watching them. They aren't so much looking to see what dogs you put up as they are that you are in command of your ring, your ring procedure is good and easy for the exhibitors and ringside to follow, your judge's book markings are clean and in order, and you are able to complete your assignments in the time you are supposed to be doing them without looking hesitant, confused, or indecisive. IOW, you can put up some real junk if you look really good, crisp, decisive, and efficient doing it.

Once you have satisfied your provisional in your original breed/breeds, you can go for more breeds. For this, you have to nowadays put on your application that you attended judge's education at a National Specialty or that you went to a breed-specific judge's seminar, or that you were mentored by several top breeders. I've done the mentoring bit. Sometimes, it's as little as a would-be Whippet judge approaches me at a show and asks me to show them my dogs I have entered, let them go over the dogs, hear my critique, and have a broad, general discussion of the points of the standard as they apply to my dogs. Sometimes, it's having them come to my house and see all my dogs of various ages, even the old retired ones.

Now, if you are a professional handler who has finished lots and lots of dogs for other people, you can rack up new breeds VERY quickly. The single breed breeder, no matter how successful they were in their single breed, has a long road ahead of them to become a judge of multiple breeds, but the handler who may never have raised a single litter and only just been paid to show dogs already determined to be show quality by their breeders can FLY on through to getting many breeds approved in just a few years.

Once you are approved for most breeds in a group, you are approved to judge that group, and once you have a group and some breeds in other groups, you can be approved to judge Best in Show.

There are a very small number of judges over here who are genuine All-Arounders--people who are licensed in every single breed there is. That is a very long process and if that is your goal, you should get going when you are still in your 30's.

People who can do several groups and all the breeds in those groups are much in demand, and I will tell you, you can make a nice living judging dogs in the USA if you are licensed for most of the breeds. But it is an expensive process getting there unless you have been an all-breed professional handler.

Karen Lee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Would you say Karen that it would be fair to say that the American system favors professional handlers rather than breeder judges resulting in more pro handler judges than breeder judges? If so, do you think that its good for the game in the States?

Also do you think that having more professional or all rounder judges than breeder judges can influence the way a breed developes?

Nicky

 

[anniewhippet]

What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it would be very interesting to read about English system of educating judges.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Who is going to answer this one?

I will make a start.

To award CC's there are 2 ways/routes.

One way and in my opinion the best way, is to be asked by a club/society to judge at their champ show. So long as you have acrued enough classes, passed the seminars, stewarded, been showing & judging for plenty of years, got stud book numbers you are part of the way there. You then have to be voted on at breed Council and then passed by Kennel Club.

I'm sure there is something I have forgotten.

The other way is the A2 system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I believe most clubs require you to have had judges at least 350+ whippets, along with what tracey mentioned above :- "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

And, through above, be on the correct Breed Clubs lists

 

[seaspot_run]

Would you say Karen that it would be fair to say that the American system favors professional handlers rather than breeder judges resulting in more pro handler judges than breeder judges? If so, do you think that its good for the game in the States?Also do you think that having more professional or all rounder judges than breeder judges can influence the way a breed developes?

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Lead the witness, much?

The process favors pro handlers, but as there are so many more breeders than handlers, there are not more former pro handler judges than there are judges who are former or current breeders. I would say it's easier to get a lot of breeds in a hurry and begin to be popular to hire at smaller all-breed shows if you have been a pro handler. Clubs can't afford to fly in or pay for hotel and meals and fees for 60+ judges on a slate who all have expertise in their various breeds.

So, judges who can do a lot of breeds are much more useful and get the bulk of assignments.

I think both breeder/judges and all-arounders can drive the development of breeds. For me, I see pluses and minuses to both of them. Some of the all-arounders who have been judging for decades have seen all the great ones and judged sufficient numbers of my breed that their opinion is valuable, and they usually have no need to impress anyone and just do what they want. Some breeder-judges are very biased for or against bloodlines and it can appear to be a less open-minded judging job.

I think that a balance of the two types is what is best for the breed. If you have a dog who has appeal to both kinds, then it's probably a really good dog that shows well and fits the standard overall pretty well.

My least favorite judges to show to are the ex-handlers. But a lot of our all-arounders were very good and known in their original breeds and do understand and appreciate that a breeder needs certain dogs in their programs which aren't the flavour-of-the-month or may even have an obvious cosmetic fault. Pro-handler judges are looking for presentation, flash, glamour, and no faults that are easy to spot. I see them gravitating towards flashy exhibits with superficial appeal, but maybe mediocre fundamentals.

 

[UKUSA]

Would you say Karen that it would be fair to say that the American system favors professional handlers rather than breeder judges resulting in more pro handler judges than breeder judges? If so, do you think that its good for the game in the States?

Also do you think that having more professional or all rounder judges than breeder judges can influence the way a breed developes?

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Lead the witness, much?

The process favors pro handlers, but as there are so many more breeders than handlers, there are not more former pro handler judges than there are judges who are former or current breeders. I would say it's easier to get a lot of breeds in a hurry and begin to be popular to hire at smaller all-breed shows if you have been a pro handler. Clubs can't afford to fly in or pay for hotel and meals and fees for 60+ judges on a slate who all have expertise in their various breeds.

So, judges who can do a lot of breeds are much more useful and get the bulk of assignments.

I think both breeder/judges and all-arounders can drive the development of breeds. For me, I see pluses and minuses to both of them. Some of the all-arounders who have been judging for decades have seen all the great ones and judged sufficient numbers of my breed that their opinion is valuable, and they usually have no need to impress anyone and just do what they want. Some breeder-judges are very biased for or against bloodlines and it can appear to be a less open-minded judging job.

I think that a balance of the two types is what is best for the breed. If you have a dog who has appeal to both kinds, then it's probably a really good dog that shows well and fits the standard overall pretty well.

My least favorite judges to show to are the ex-handlers. But a lot of our all-arounders were very good and known in their original breeds and do understand and appreciate that a breeder needs certain dogs in their programs which aren't the flavour-of-the-month or may even have an obvious cosmetic fault. Pro-handler judges are looking for presentation, flash, glamour, and no faults that are easy to spot. I see them gravitating towards flashy exhibits with superficial appeal, but maybe mediocre fundamentals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks for that Karen. I think that this will be of great interest to those that really do not know how it all works on the other side of the pond. When I lived in the U.S, which now feels back in the mists of time, the three states that I lived in there were certainly more owner, breeder handlers in the ring than professionals. I know that well owned dogs,of any breed, can certainly be helped along with a well planned and thought out ad campaign. Maybe you could explain how that works because I think that some people will be quite amazed.

Nicky

 

[patsy]

Would you say Karen that it would be fair to say that the American system favors professional handlers rather than breeder judges resulting in more pro handler judges than breeder judges? If so, do you think that its good for the game in the States?

Also do you think that having more professional or all rounder judges than breeder judges can influence the way a breed developes?

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Lead the witness, much?

The process favors pro handlers, but as there are so many more breeders than handlers, there are not more former pro handler judges than there are judges who are former or current breeders. I would say it's easier to get a lot of breeds in a hurry and begin to be popular to hire at smaller all-breed shows if you have been a pro handler. Clubs can't afford to fly in or pay for hotel and meals and fees for 60+ judges on a slate who all have expertise in their various breeds.

So, judges who can do a lot of breeds are much more useful and get the bulk of assignments.

I think both breeder/judges and all-arounders can drive the development of breeds. For me, I see pluses and minuses to both of them. Some of the all-arounders who have been judging for decades have seen all the great ones and judged sufficient numbers of my breed that their opinion is valuable, and they usually have no need to impress anyone and just do what they want. Some breeder-judges are very biased for or against bloodlines and it can appear to be a less open-minded judging job.

I think that a balance of the two types is what is best for the breed. If you have a dog who has appeal to both kinds, then it's probably a really good dog that shows well and fits the standard overall pretty well.

My least favorite judges to show to are the ex-handlers. But a lot of our all-arounders were very good and known in their original breeds and do understand and appreciate that a breeder needs certain dogs in their programs which aren't the flavour-of-the-month or may even have an obvious cosmetic fault. Pro-handler judges are looking for presentation, flash, glamour, and no faults that are easy to spot. I see them gravitating towards flashy exhibits with superficial appeal, but maybe mediocre fundamentals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Thanks for that Karen. I think that this will be of great interest to those that really do not know how it all works on the other side of the pond. When I lived in the U.S, which now feels back in the mists of time, the three states that I lived in there were certainly more owner, breeder handlers in the ring than professionals. I know that well owned dogs,of any breed, can certainly be helped along with a well planned and thought out ad campaign. Maybe you could explain how that works because I think that some people will be quite amazed.

Nicky

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Karen is very quiet at the moment, I think England and America are Poles apart when it comes to advertising, we have just never done it to a great extent in whippets. As. a breed we all look forward to our ads in the biennial.

I don't think any country in the world has the amount of breed specialist that we do.

 

[seaspot_run]

Karen is very quiet at the moment, I think England and America are Poles apart when it comes to advertising, we have just never done it to a great extent in whippets. As. a breed we all look forward to our ads in the biennial.I don't think any country in the world has the amount of breed specialist that we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it's time for someone else to weigh in.

It's weird speaking for all of the US, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

With regard to advertising, I'll just say that the top specials (the ones you see getting the big wins at shows like Westminister) probably have advertising budgets annually in the $10,000 (low) to $50,000 range, and if it didn't work to help the judges find the dogs for higher awards, they wouldn't spend that kind of money, would they? The career of certain top specials that I have heard has been quoted as being done at a total cost of around $100,000 annually or more.

The one time we had a dog given that sort of push with a professional handler and ads in all the magazines, she made #1 Whippet for two years running. You can put a dog in the Top 10 without it, but it's pretty hard to get to #1 and stay there. Our dog had a wealthy backer who lived in a condo in downtown New York City and although he owned her for two years, she lived with the handler all that time.

 

[Juley]

Karen is very quiet at the moment, I think England and America are Poles apart when it comes to advertising, we have just never done it to a great extent in whippets. As. a breed we all look forward to our ads in the biennial.I don't think any country in the world has the amount of breed specialist that we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it's time for someone else to weigh in.

It's weird speaking for all of the US, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

With regard to advertising, I'll just say that the top specials (the ones you see getting the big wins at shows like Westminister) probably have advertising budgets annually in the $10,000 (low) to $50,000 range, and if it didn't work to help the judges find the dogs for higher awards, they wouldn't spend that kind of money, would they? The career of certain top specials that I have heard has been quoted as being done at a total cost of around $100,000 annually or more.

The one time we had a dog given that sort of push with a professional handler and ads in all the magazines, she made #1 Whippet for two years running. You can put a dog in the Top 10 without it, but it's pretty hard to get to #1 and stay there. Our dog had a wealthy backer who lived in a condo in downtown New York City and although he owned her for two years, she lived with the handler all that time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Good grief, (w00t) and to think I flatly refused to pay the £85 Dog world wanted to place an ad for Berry's junior warrant!! :lol:

 

[rls22]

Karen is very quiet at the moment, I think England and America are Poles apart when it comes to advertising, we have just never done it to a great extent in whippets. As. a breed we all look forward to our ads in the biennial.I don't think any country in the world has the amount of breed specialist that we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it's time for someone else to weigh in.

It's weird speaking for all of the US, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

With regard to advertising, I'll just say that the top specials (the ones you see getting the big wins at shows like Westminister) probably have advertising budgets annually in the $10,000 (low) to $50,000 range, and if it didn't work to help the judges find the dogs for higher awards, they wouldn't spend that kind of money, would they? The career of certain top specials that I have heard has been quoted as being done at a total cost of around $100,000 annually or more.

The one time we had a dog given that sort of push with a professional handler and ads in all the magazines, she made #1 Whippet for two years running. You can put a dog in the Top 10 without it, but it's pretty hard to get to #1 and stay there. Our dog had a wealthy backer who lived in a condo in downtown New York City and although he owned her for two years, she lived with the handler all that time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Good grief, (w00t) and to think I flatly refused to pay the £85 Dog world wanted to place an ad for Berry's junior warrant!! :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can't believe that people are prepared to spend that much money, where on earth do they get it from?! :blink:

 

[Parsonally]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can't believe that people are prepared to spend that much money, where on earth do they get it from?! :blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

*** YES please tell me who they get this money from ?

I am very interested (w00t) ***

 

[seaspot_run]

Karen is very quiet at the moment, I think England and America are Poles apart when it comes to advertising, we have just never done it to a great extent in whippets. As. a breed we all look forward to our ads in the biennial.I don't think any country in the world has the amount of breed specialist that we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it's time for someone else to weigh in.

It's weird speaking for all of the US, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

With regard to advertising, I'll just say that the top specials (the ones you see getting the big wins at shows like Westminister) probably have advertising budgets annually in the $10,000 (low) to $50,000 range, and if it didn't work to help the judges find the dogs for higher awards, they wouldn't spend that kind of money, would they? The career of certain top specials that I have heard has been quoted as being done at a total cost of around $100,000 annually or more.

The one time we had a dog given that sort of push with

a professional handler and ads in all the magazines, she made #1 Whippet for two years running. You can put a dog in the Top 10 without it, but it's pretty hard to get to #1 and stay there. Our dog had a wealthy backer who lived in a condo in downtown New York City and although he owned her for two years, she lived with the handler all that time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Good grief, (w00t) and to think I flatly refused to pay the £85 Dog world wanted to place an ad for Berry's junior warrant!! :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I can't believe that people are prepared to spend that much money, where on earth do they get it from?! :blink:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

They're rich!

I'm sure you have some rich people in the UK. Maybe they back racehorses instead.

Now, for that advertising budget, we're not just talking about a few ads. We're talking magazine covers, and multiple page spreads in every magazine that might be conceivably taken by a judge licensed for their breed or group. $10,000 a month ad budget isn't unheard of. That will also include professional photoshoots and maybe even the services of a graphic designer to design the ad.

 

[rls22]

Yeah think you're right there, the people with loads of money over here won't be investing it in show dogs where they can't make a return on it.

It will go into race horses where there is mega prize money on offer.

It is just a completely different world :wacko:

 

[patsy]

Karen is very quiet at the moment, I think England and America are Poles apart when it comes to advertising, we have just never done it to a great extent in whippets. As. a breed we all look forward to our ads in the biennial.I don't think any country in the world has the amount of breed specialist that we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think it's time for someone else to weigh in.

It's weird speaking for all of the US, and I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

With regard to advertising, I'll just say that the top specials (the ones you see getting the big wins at shows like Westminister) probably have advertising budgets annually in the $10,000 (low) to $50,000 range, and if it didn't work to help the judges find the dogs for higher awards, they wouldn't spend that kind of money, would they? The career of certain top specials that I have heard has been quoted as being done at a total cost of around $100,000 annually or more.

The one time we had a dog given that sort of push with a professional handler and ads in all the magazines, she made #1 Whippet for two years running. You can put a dog in the Top 10 without it, but it's pretty hard to get to #1 and stay there. Our dog had a wealthy backer who lived in a condo in downtown New York City and although he owned her for two years, she lived with the handler all that time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Karen I would like to thank you we have bombarded you with questions and you have always done your best to answer them all.It is a pity some more of your fellow countrymen do not come on the board and help you out, it would be lovely to hear from more people, I know from what has been said to me so many people here have been enjoying the topic.

 

[JAX]

Quite agree Patsy , and its been good having your imput too :huggles: , instead of you `lurking in the background `. :- "

You have so much good information and knowledge that we really need to `prise`it out of you at times .

See , K9 isnt all bad is it :huggles: