British And American Whippets

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lanny wrote (edited)
"It is now generally, perhaps grudgingly accepted, that there was indeed a Sheltie cross, either accidentally initially or deliberately, and probably deliberately thereafter,"

I have followed this saga on American lists and sites for some years and  it was dna testing that finally and irrevocably proved the "herding" inheritance.  Since then, I have had some interesting correspondence from one of the founders/supporters of the Silken Windhounds who was the only person to respond to my plea for information on polydactylys (extra toes) in whippets or sighthounds.  She told me that they were common in their early crosses and that breeders had supposed it had come from the whippet component of the breed but it was one of the traits they quoted as being evidence of a new breed.  I responded rather crisply that on the contrary, it would have come from the shelties since it is known in herding breeds but so far, I have been unable to find anyone in whippets who has even seen it, let alone bred it and our correspondence ended there.  The breed is recognised in Eastern Europe so I don't suppose it will be long before it finds its way here.

Gay

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Never heard of rear dewclaws on an AKC Whippet, ever.

I think it was the appearance of Collie Eye Anomaly (also unknown in pure Whippets) and sensitivity to Ivermectin that were additional smoking guns. Never discount the ability of people to ignore data and believe whatever they want to believe, though.

 

[patsy]

[ Are they recognised by the American Kennel club?

If they are, are they shown?

Are they coming over to the UK?

More importantly is this really a pure breed recessive gene?? I don't understand colour genetics so I have no chance with long coats and short coats!

....

Weve already got them, they are called Lurchers :thumbsup:

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PMSL :- "

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Having grown up in a home with a mother who bred and showed Rough Collies and maternal and paternal grandparents who bred English and Irish Setters, I spent a goodly part of my childhood and youth grooming dogs. So my first decision about what type of dogs I would have as an adult was made for me because of my aversion to grooming. I knew it had to be a short-coated breed with minimal grooming requirements and the whippet fit that bill. So why anyone would want one of these cross-bred dogs with a coat that requires constant grooming positively escapes me!

A bit of information about the 'long-haired' whippet. NO, it does not have AKC, CKC, FCI or any other major kennel club recognition as a breed. This is not for wanting, as proponents and breeders of this dog fought long and hard on several occasions beginning in the 60s and right into the 1980s to have them classified separately and accepted by the AKC, but thanks to the good efforts of people such as Bo Bengston, Peggy Newcombe and Dr. Barbara Henderson and others acting in the interest of the American Whippet Club and the breed generally, these efforts were unsuccessful. I believe the group is now considering having them recognized as a separate 'breed' because this indeed is what they are.

The genesis of this dog goes back to a man by the name of Walter Wheeler, who owned and showed whippets in the 50s/60s. Mr. Wheeler initially did not reveal when he announced he had whelped long-haired whippets from what was obviously a mutated gene, that he also owned Shelties simultaneously with the whippets. This only became clear as he sought recognition of his 'long-haired whippets'. It was only when examination was made of his claims that these long haired dogs came from a mutated gene produced out of Hillgarth Shot Silk whom Peggy Newcombe purchased in England and exported to the USA, that people examining his claims put two and two together and got a Whippet/Sheltie mix.

Wheeler persisted in his claim that Shot Silk carried this gene which she passed on to her children, one of whom Wheeler owned, and out of this came the long-hair. He began concentrated on maximizing this coat by breeding with other dogs he 'identified' as also carrying this gene, and announced he had been able to 'retrieve' the long coat that came out of the distant background of the whippet.

Peggy Newcombe, of course, was quick to dismiss this, having purchased, owned and bred Shot Silk. She reported and confirmed none of the dogs she produced out of this bitch ever produced pups or grandchildren with anything other than the standard whippet coat. Wheeler thereafter revised his story to say other dogs were also carriers that he had assembled to produce his 'line' but after that the only people believing him were the early adopters of his designer breed.

It is now generally, perhaps grudgingly accepted, that there was indeed a Sheltie cross, either accidentally initially or deliberately, and probably deliberately thereafter, and this seems confirmed by the fact that the Long-Haired Whippet is included in the list of dogs in North America that are all genetically related that cannot be give certain types of medication for things such as protection against heartworm because of an acute sensitivity ot the medication, which can kill them.

In the latest issue of the Canadian Kennel Club's Dogs in Canada Dr. Jeff Grognet, a vet who writes a series of articles on medical issues related to dogs, noted the severe reaction to certain medications amongst dogs that included collies, shelties, several types of sheep dogs, and, surprise, surprise, the long-haired whippet.

I have seen these dogs in the US being exhibited at a 'rare breeds' show. They look like miniature borzois. They seem sweet and affectionate in nature, but you are right -- in the UK you can produce similar dogs and call them lurchers whereas here in Canada members of the Canadian Kennel Club cannot cross breeds and sell them as you are permitted to do. The penalty is severe -- loss of membership rights and privileges, which includes the right to register purebred dogs. So English lurcher type dogs are not found over here, though they are extremely common in England.

Lanny

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There Lanny you have mentioned the bitches name, when Mark was asking questions I said it was someone his Dad new. It caused great upset at the time. It was the lovely Ch Hillgarth Sunstar of Glenbervie that was the start of Authur Nicholsons famous Kennel

 

[patsy]

lanny wrote (edited)
"It is now generally, perhaps grudgingly accepted, that there was indeed a Sheltie cross, either accidentally initially or deliberately, and probably deliberately thereafter,"

I have followed this saga on American lists and sites for some years and  it was dna testing that finally and irrevocably proved the "herding" inheritance.  Since then, I have had some interesting correspondence from one of the founders/supporters of the Silken Windhounds who was the only person to respond to my plea for information on polydactylys (extra toes) in whippets or sighthounds.  She told me that they were common in their early crosses and that breeders had supposed it had come from the whippet component of the breed but it was one of the traits they quoted as being evidence of a new breed.  I responded rather crisply that on the contrary, it would have come from the shelties since it is known in herding breeds but so far, I have been unable to find anyone in whippets who has even seen it, let alone bred it and our correspondence ended there.  The breed is recognised in Eastern Europe so I don't suppose it will be long before it finds its way here.

Gay

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It is nice to have you on the board Gaye I feel we might have to behave ourselves now though. You could have come and helped us though on the working racing side , it is your field. Please do not mention it now though.

 

[patsy]

[ Are they recognised by the American Kennel club?

If they are, are they shown?

Are they coming over to the UK?

More importantly is this really a pure breed recessive gene?? I don't understand colour genetics so I have no chance with long coats and short coats!

....

Weve already got them, they are called Lurchers :thumbsup:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

PMSL :- "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Having grown up in a home with a mother who bred and showed Rough Collies and maternal and paternal grandparents who bred English and Irish Setters, I spent a goodly part of my childhood and youth grooming dogs. So my first decision about what type of dogs I would have as an adult was made for me because of my aversion to grooming. I knew it had to be a short-coated breed with minimal grooming requirements and the whippet fit that bill. So why anyone would want one of these cross-bred dogs with a coat that requires constant grooming positively escapes me!

A bit of information about the 'long-haired' whippet. NO, it does not have AKC, CKC, FCI or any other major kennel club recognition as a breed. This is not for wanting, as proponents and breeders of this dog fought long and hard on several occasions beginning in the 60s and right into the 1980s to have them classified separately and accepted by the AKC, but thanks to the good efforts of people such as Bo Bengston, Peggy Newcombe and Dr. Barbara Henderson and others acting in the interest of the American Whippet Club and the breed generally, these efforts were unsuccessful. I believe the group is now considering having them recognized as a separate 'breed' because this indeed is what they are.

The genesis of this dog goes back to a man by the name of Walter Wheeler, who owned and showed whippets in the 50s/60s. Mr. Wheeler initially did not reveal when he announced he had whelped long-haired whippets from what was obviously a mutated gene, that he also owned Shelties simultaneously with the whippets. This only became clear as he sought recognition of his 'long-haired whippets'. It was only when examination was made of his claims that these long haired dogs came from a mutated gene produced out of Hillgarth Shot Silk whom Peggy Newcombe purchased in England and exported to the USA, that people examining his claims put two and two together and got a Whippet/Sheltie mix.

Wheeler persisted in his claim that Shot Silk carried this gene which she passed on to her children, one of whom Wheeler owned, and out of this came the long-hair. He began concentrated on maximizing this coat by breeding with other dogs he 'identified' as also carrying this gene, and announced he had been able to 'retrieve' the long coat that came out of the distant background of the whippet.

Peggy Newcombe, of course, was quick to dismiss this, having purchased, owned and bred Shot Silk. She reported and confirmed none of the dogs she produced out of this bitch ever produced pups or grandchildren with anything other than the standard whippet coat. Wheeler thereafter revised his story to say other dogs were also carriers that he had assembled to produce his 'line' but after that the only people believing him were the early adopters of his designer breed.

It is now generally, perhaps grudgingly accepted, that there was indeed a Sheltie cross, either accidentally initially or deliberately, and probably deliberately thereafter, and this seems confirmed by the fact that the Long-Haired Whippet is included in the list of dogs in North America that are all genetically related that cannot be give certain types of medication for things such as protection against heartworm because of an acute sensitivity ot the medication, which can kill them.

In the latest issue of the Canadian Kennel Club's Dogs in Canada Dr. Jeff Grognet, a vet who writes a series of articles on medical issues related to dogs, noted the severe reaction to certain medications amongst dogs that included collies, shelties, several types of sheep dogs, and, surprise, surprise, the long-haired whippet.

I have seen these dogs in the US being exhibited at a 'rare breeds' show. They look like miniature borzois. They seem sweet and affectionate in nature, but you are right -- in the UK you can produce similar dogs and call them lurchers whereas here in Canada members of the Canadian Kennel Club cannot cross breeds and sell them as you are permitted to do. The penalty is severe -- loss of membership rights and privileges, which includes the right to register purebred dogs. So English lurcher type dogs are not found over here, though they are extremely common in England.

Lanny

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There Lanny you have mentioned the bitches name, when Mark was asking questions I said it was someone his Dad new. It caused great upset at the time. It was the lovely Ch Hillgarth Sunstar of Glenbervie that was the start of Authur Nicholsons famous Kennel

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Oh my god made a bit of a hash of the post half missing buty wont re do as it has been covered.

 

[Avalonia]

To close the loop on the 'Silken Windsprite' or 'Long-Haired Whippet', a bit more info is useful.

When Peggy Newcombe came up to Canada and stayed with us for four days some years ago she brought a large number of photos to show us of her years in whippets. I well remember there was one of Hillgarth Shot Silk and some other dogs on leads on the deck of the Cunard ocean liner Peggy took back to the USA after purchasing her and other dogs on that trip to England. It was from seeing that picture that Peggy introduced me to the story of the long-haired whippet and the controversy caused when Mr. Wheeler made claims about Shot Silk carrying a long-haired gene. It was quite clear from the photos that this bitch had a typical close English coat. Peggy told me how horribly upsetting it had been to her good friend Miss Hawthorne, from whom she had bought a series of Hillgarth dogs over the years to hear this unfounded claim, and it was on that basis that she was determined to set the record straight on this issue. This she did with great conviction every time there was any suggestion of a link to those dogs and Shot Silk was raised.

It is noteworthy that Mr. Wheeler purchased and had several litters out of Shot Silk. They were registered with his kennel name 'Windsprite', and this is where one of the potential names for this designer breed, if ever recognized, comes from.

Lanny

 

[patsy]

Lanny it was not Miss Hawthorne, she was Deepridge, and certainly would not have sold anything to the stated.

It was Mary Sheffield who was HILLGARTH

 

[dragonfly]

lanny wrote (edited)
  I responded rather crisply that on the contrary, it would have come from the shelties since it is known in herding breeds but so far, I have been unable to find anyone in whippets who has even seen it, let alone bred it and our correspondence ended there. 

Gay

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Hello Gay

You .... Crisp (w00t) I find that very hard to believe!

Cathie

 

[Avalonia]

Lanny it was not Miss Hawthorne, she was Deepridge, and certainly would not have sold anything to the stated.It was Mary Sheffield who was HILLGARTH

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Gulp! I meant to write Miss Sheffield! How I substituted names knowing the difference I don't know. :- " I actually had the privilege to meet Miss Hawthorne briefly when she was in a home for the elderly back I think in 1990 or 1991. I was such a fan of Mintmaster that I purchased a dog from June Cox (Rearsbylea Moonwalker) because he was a son of Memento of Rearsbylea who was by Deepridge Martyn x Shayle Ariadne and thus a double granddaughter of Mintmaster. June said well maybe you want to meet the lady who bred him!...And I did!

Lanny

 

[Juley]

Karen, thanks so much for all the info, it is really interesting reading and I shall no doubt come back to it several times yet. :cheers:

 

[seaspot_run]

Going back to differences.  I seem to remember hearing that in the US any health problems for example with offspring are recorded with the AKC?  Is this true?
Please note I'm not wanting a discussion on health problems just trying to see if they do occur in the US are they dealt with differently.

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Health problems are not recorded by AKC, although AKC assists with and funds research into genetic health problems. There are several different bodies such as the Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) and Orthopedic Foundation of America (OFA) that grant registry numbers to dogs who have been checked by approved Veterinarians or had their x-rays submitted (in the case of OFA) for approval by specialists. These registry numbers and certifications show that a dog has either been checked clear of problems in that area, or that they have been diagnosed with a problem that may be hereditary.

Those who are diagnosed are added to the overall database, but their results are not made public unless the owner signs that they may be viewed by outside parties.

Some of the breed clubs also keep registries for problems specific to their breed.

A new effort here is our AWC Whippet Health Foundation which is a central database rather like The Whippet Archives where you can put your information about your dogs. If they have a weird or rare condition, it might be a way to connect some dots about it, and if they are clear and certified free of eye or other problems at the time you add the information, it stays up for others to view if they are considering your dog or your lines.

The current gold standard of health testing in the USA is to have your breeding stock be given a clear eye exam in the year prior to the mating, a clear cardiac evaluation (for dogs younger than ten) which can be sent and registered with OFA if you like), to have had a BAER test at some point for normal hearing in both ears (which is good for the lifetime of the dog), and to not require thyroid medication.

For the racing people, there is a new test to check for the "Bully Gene" which is the myostatin mutation. I don't think the show people are going to go all out for that one, since it's unknown in show lines at present (but I guess if the test is cheap enough--why not?)

There are a lot of things that show up on tests that the owner might be unaware of. So, without testing, you may never know there was a problem. OTOH, I guess if you can't know there's a problem without testing, you can always make a case that it can't be that serious of a problem.

The USA is a very litigious society, where there is no such thing as "bad luck", and CYA* is the SOP**. That said, I think health testing particularly for cardiac problems is absolutely needed as we have been seeing problems with heart at relatively young ages in some very popular and widely-used lines.

*CYA=Cover Your Arse

**SOP=Standard Operating Procedure

 

[patsy]

Going back to differences.  I seem to remember hearing that in the US any health problems for example with offspring are recorded with the AKC?  Is this true?
Please note I'm not wanting a discussion on health problems just trying to see if they do occur in the US are they dealt with differently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Health problems are not recorded by AKC, although AKC assists with and funds research into genetic health problems. There are several different bodies such as the Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) and Orthopedic Foundation of America (OFA) that grant registry numbers to dogs who have been checked by approved Veterinarians or had their x-rays submitted (in the case of OFA) for approval by specialists. These registry numbers and certifications show that a dog has either been checked clear of problems in that area, or that they have been diagnosed with a problem that may be hereditary.

Those who are diagnosed are added to the overall database, but their results are not made public unless the owner signs that they may be viewed by outside parties.

Some of the breed clubs also keep registries for problems specific to their breed.

A new effort here is our AWC Whippet Health Foundation which is a central database rather like The Whippet Archives where you can put your information about your dogs. If they have a weird or rare condition, it might be a way to connect some dots about it, and if they are clear and certified free of eye or other problems at the time you add the information, it stays up for others to view if they are considering your dog or your lines.

The current gold standard of health testing in the USA is to have your breeding stock be given a clear eye exam in the year prior to the mating, a clear cardiac evaluation (for dogs younger than ten) which can be sent and registered with OFA if you like), to have had a BAER test at some point for normal hearing in both ears (which is good for the lifetime of the dog), and to not require thyroid medication.

For the racing people, there is a new test to check for the "Bully Gene" which is the myostatin mutation. I don't think the show people are going to go all out for that one, since it's unknown in show lines at present (but I guess if the test is cheap enough--why not?)

There are a lot of things that show up on tests that the owner might be unaware of. So, without testing, you may never know there was a problem. OTOH, I guess if you can't know there's a problem without testing, you can always make a case that it can't be that serious of a problem.

The USA is a very litigious society, where there is no such thing as "bad luck", and CYA* is the SOP**. That said, I think health testing particularly for cardiac problems is absolutely needed as we have been seeing problems with heart at relatively young ages in some very popular and widely-used lines.

*CYA=Cover Your Arse

**SOP=Standard Operating Procedure

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I have been told of heart problems in the states, certain dogs and lines were mentioned to me. When you do not live in the country you never know whether it is true or some kind of witch hunt.

 

[chelynnah]

All sounds a bit complecated to me Karen, but look forward to watching when Nicky and I come to Atlanta in 2009.

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Ooh I didn't know you were planning to go. I went to Boston in 06 and had the time of my life! Nick and I have been planning Atlanta since it was announced. Guess we're going to have a good British contingent there then!

Wendy

 

[seaspot_run]

I have been told of heart problems in the states, certain dogs and lines were mentioned to me. When you do not live in the country you never know whether it is true or some kind of witch hunt.

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It can be a little of both, depending on who is doing the telling.

 

[anniewhippet]

:cheers: Karen for your details on the show scene 'over there'.......to us it seems complicated &, like Juley said, needs returning to again but I suppose once you live with a system, UK or otherwise, it hopefully becomes second nature :blink: :- "

 

[seaspot_run]

:cheers: Karen for your details on the show scene 'over there'.......to us it seems complicated &, like Juley said, needs returning to again but I suppose once you live with a system, UK or otherwise, it hopefully becomes second nature  :blink:   :- "

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I find your system very hard to fathom. The whole structure of your classes, for example (mid-limit, post-graduate, etc.) and also the Jr. Warrant thing.

It's what you live with and get used to--it's second nature in no time.

If you really want to be confused, I could explain our system of racing....but...I think maybe at the risk of calling down the wrath of Patsy, I won't! o

 

[patsy]

:cheers: Karen for your details on the show scene 'over there'.......to us it seems complicated &, like Juley said, needs returning to again but I suppose once you live with a system, UK or otherwise, it hopefully becomes second nature  :blink:   :- "

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I find your system very hard to fathom. The whole structure of your classes, for example (mid-limit, post-graduate, etc.) and also the Jr. Warrant thing.

It's what you live with and get used to--it's second nature in no time.

If you really want to be confused, I could explain our system of racing....but...I think maybe at the risk of calling down the wrath of Patsy, I won't! o

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No Karen you would not bring down my wrath although I am not involved in racing I am always willing to learn, I said what fabulous condition the racing dogs were in when I saw them on EWhippetzine.

What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

 

[Cartman]

[ What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

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While at it, to judge whippets & the Hound group in England is?

 

[T Hoare]

[ What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

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While at it, to judge whippets & the Hound group in England is?

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Can you explain your question a little further, I am not sure what your asking??

 

[BeeJay]

>Health problems are not recorded by AKC, although AKC assists with and funds research into genetic health problems. There are several different bodies such as the Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF) and Orthopedic Foundation of America (OFA) that grant registry numbers to dogs who have been checked by approved Veterinarians or had their x-rays submitted (in the case of OFA) for approval by specialists. These registry numbers and certifications show that a dog has either been checked clear of problems in that area, or that they have been diagnosed with a problem that may be hereditary.

Thanks for answering my question. Your reply is very interesting.

 

[anniewhippet]

[ What I would like to know is what method you use in America to pass your judges, do they have to  jump through as many hoops as our up and coming judges.

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While at it, to judge whippets & the Hound group in England is?

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:- " Two words........not easy :lol: as Patsy says a few hoops come into it for the up and coming over here now. :blink: