British And American Whippets

[Strike Whippets]

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I do agree about the muscle tone and lack of it in some of the exhibits and wonder why when the Whippet is quite an easy dog to exercise. However I also wonder why sometimes it can be harder to 'fitten up' some dogs. I had a bitch years ago who no matter how much free running, road walking etc I gave her, she just did not feel in the type of muscle condition I was looking for.

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I think like the type of coats ...Muscling is also in the genes and lines ...... 2 of my faster racers have small muscles .... even though they are in hard condition ........ My best muscled dogs, though would be classed as too "bunchy" for the ring, but boy can't they work .....All of my lot have fine silky coats btw :thumbsup:

 

[Ms Molly]

All my dogs have good muscle tone, and they are a combination of UK, USA, Scan and old Australian lines. I do not like a bunchy muscle mass which is evident in some lines. The leaner longer muscle is what I consider correct in a Sighthound. I prefer to have a smooth flowing outline without any distractions.

I agree that some whippets do take longer to develop show condition. And maturity has alot to do with this.

But here again I think diet has a huge play here, and of course no whippet is going to be fit if they are couch potatos.

As for the differing standards between the UK and USA I am sure Karen can shed some light on just HOW this was revised, way back then.

I know there were certain individuals who were anti dilute, and used their clout to change the standard in the area of eye colour.

Molly

 

[seaspot_run]

I'm going to first comment generally, and then personally.

Generally: I think that in the UK, smoothness under the hand is more prized than it is over here. At best, this difference results in better coat and skin quality and breeding for long, smooth, flat muscles. At worst, it means that some of the dogs are shown and presented a bit "fat" and soft. Over here, a more coarse feel under the hand is excused on the grounds that the dog appears strong and fit.

Here in the USA, powerful gait is more stressed. Many of our top specials (by which I mean our campaigned champions who are going for top rankings) as well as our class dogs are worked each day on a bike or treadmill. I know there are a lot of internationals who came to Boston, and if they looked out their window each day, they would see some of our more prominent breeder/exhibitors who are admired for powerful gait biking and roadworking their dogs in the parking lot every single day. So, not even a week away from home was allowed to pass without maintaining a strict roadwork and training schedule and if anyone thinks that this is not a direct influence on how those dogs gait around the ring at speed, they need to ask themselves what other possible reason those top exhibitors could have for doing other than than OCD. Those who can't roadwork with a bicycle or golf cart can buy a treadmill for home use. Uno the Beagle who just won Westminster does his miles on his treadmill every day. I'm sure he's hard as a rock under the hand.

Also, because (as we discussed earlier in this thread), our racing and lure coursing does not exclude dogs of breed ring quality size and substance (i.e. weight) from competition, we have a number of exhibitors who are versatility or multi-purpose. You can't let your dogs go soft for the show and then expect them to have the muscle tone to win for you in lure coursing or racing the following weekend.

Because of this, I feel that many of the US dogs are shown in a harder and fitter condition than show Whippets in other nations on average (not all, of course--there are always exceptions).

However, I do agree that genetically some dogs who are capable of good athleticism tend towards a softer feel of muscle while others if you give them a scrap of exercise turn into bodybuilders and weighlifters. This is true of human athletes as well.

The ideal under, I think, most standards, is to have muscles which are long, flat, and hard under a good coat and skin and just enough weight to give a neoprene wetsuit-thick layer of cover to enhance that smoothness. This is certainly what I aim for, but I think some exhibitors keep their dogs fat and soft to make them "smooth", but to me, that just looks "blobby". There are others who roadwork like fiends but the Whippets are still a bit willowy and slight, but not as they'd be if they had insufficient exercise.

Personally: I think that a dog with good proportions and outline who is a bit rough due to being in excessively fit condition shouldn't be penalized against a dog who is unfit and soft and has a topline that bounces and sags around the ring. You can tell a Whippet who has some ability to run by whether or not it has a hard, firm back and loin, with good muscling in the rear that carries well down towards the hock joint. All else is gravy.

For me, my ideal is a dog who can win points in our show ring one weekend, and the following weekend win a major placement in lure coursing or finish in the Top 10 at a race meet. I'm really happy to say I've had such dogs. If they can stay smooth and elegant enough to win in the show ring and then turn right around and run to the best of their potential, that's my ideal.

But of course, there are some who need to lay off running to stay smooth enough for showing, and there are show dogs who require extraordinary conditioning to make them competitive at the athletic pursuits.

 

[Ms Molly]

I agree with your comments Karen, and well said. A working whippet should also be able to win in the show ring.

The standard says "built for speed and work"

Molly

 

[jok]

I'm going to first comment generally, and then personally.
Generally: I think that in the UK, smoothness under the hand is more prized than it is over here.  At best, this difference results in better coat and skin quality and breeding for long, smooth, flat muscles.  At worst, it means that some of the dogs are shown and presented a bit "fat" and soft.  Over here, a more coarse feel under the hand is excused on the grounds that the dog appears strong and fit.

Here in the USA, powerful gait is more stressed.  Many of our top specials (by which I mean our campaigned champions who are going for top rankings) as well as our class dogs are worked each day on a bike or treadmill.  I know there are a lot of internationals who came to Boston, and if they looked out their window each day, they would see some of our more prominent breeder/exhibitors who are admired for powerful gait biking and roadworking their dogs in the parking lot every single day. So, not even a week away from home was allowed to pass without maintaining a strict roadwork and training schedule and if anyone thinks that this is not a direct influence on how those dogs gait around the ring at speed, they need to ask themselves what other possible reason those top exhibitors could have for doing other than than OCD.  Those who can't roadwork with a bicycle or golf cart can buy a treadmill for home use.  Uno the Beagle who just won Westminster does his miles on his treadmill every day.  I'm sure he's hard as a rock under the hand.

Also, because (as we discussed earlier in this thread), our racing and lure coursing does not exclude dogs of breed ring quality size and substance (i.e. weight) from competition, we have a number of exhibitors who are versatility or multi-purpose.  You can't let your dogs go soft for the show and then expect them to have the muscle tone to win for you in lure coursing or racing the following weekend.

Because of this, I feel that many of the US dogs are shown in a harder and fitter condition than show Whippets in other nations on average (not all, of course--there are always exceptions).

However, I do agree that genetically some dogs who are capable of good athleticism tend towards a softer feel of muscle while others if you give them a scrap of exercise turn into bodybuilders and weighlifters. This is true of human athletes as well.

The ideal under, I think, most standards, is to have muscles which are long, flat, and hard under a good coat and skin and just enough weight to give a neoprene wetsuit-thick layer of cover to enhance that smoothness. This is certainly what I aim for, but I think some exhibitors keep their dogs fat and soft to make them "smooth", but to me, that just looks "blobby". There are others who roadwork like fiends but the  Whippets are still a bit willowy and slight, but not as they'd be if they had insufficient exercise.

Personally: I think that a dog with good proportions and outline who is a bit rough due to being in excessively fit condition shouldn't be penalized against a dog who is unfit and soft and has a topline that bounces and sags around the ring.  You can tell a Whippet who has some ability to run by whether or not it has a hard, firm back and loin, with good muscling in the rear that carries well down towards the hock joint.  All else is gravy.

For me, my ideal is a dog who can win points in our show ring one weekend, and the following weekend win a major placement in lure coursing or finish in the Top 10 at a race meet.  I'm really happy to say I've had such dogs. If they can stay smooth and elegant enough to win in the show ring and then turn right around and run to the best of their potential, that's my ideal.

But of course, there are some who need to lay off running to stay smooth enough for showing, and there are show dogs who require extraordinary conditioning to make them competitive at the athletic pursuits.

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Thank you Karen - very interesting.

From a personal point of view i would never like to go down the route of having to use a treadmill to exercise my dogs. One of the biggest joys i get from my Whippets is the time we spend out walking together. It is no chore keeping them looking fit :thumbsup:

 

[seaspot_run]

I'll add by way of throwing our UK friends a biscuit that even if they sometimes show their dogs a bit spongy, the UK/US bloodline cross is a winner over here for multi-purpose. I've never had a bad courser who was of blended lines and I've generally found they race fast for showbreds as well. I think that many of the dogs shown in the UK if they were eligible to race under a non-weight-graded system, or if they were eligible to lure course and were conditioned for it, are built perfectly fine to excel at those pursuits.

It's more a matter of what the owners want to do with their dogs and the system, but the UK/US cross has been golden for many of in terms of versatility over here for many years.

In the dual-purpose race/show organization for the USA, Continental Racing Alliance racing, there were only two dogs last year who finished their Dual-Purpose Championship (having completed championship in both conformation showing and in straight racing). Both were offspring of Aust.Am.Ch. Byerley Savile Row, who is an English-import sire bred to Australian show lines which go back to mostly UK imports. The dams were from US dual-purpose (show/coursing or show/racing) lines.

I'm proud to say that one of these two dogs was mine. That's my ideal. He may never win a Best in Show, in fact, I daresay, he could not, but he exemplifies the goal of my dual-purpose line which is to have dogs who can complete both a bench and a running title winning points towards each in the same time frame.

Karen Lee

 

[seaspot_run]

Thank you Karen - very interesting.
From a personal point of view i would never like to go down the route of having to use a treadmill to exercise my dogs.  One of the biggest joys i get from my Whippets is the time we spend out walking together. It is no chore keeping them looking fit :thumbsup:

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yes, Jok, but you are a young, slim gal who can walk and run her own dogs and does not live in someplace like Minnesota where there is ice and snow on the ground five months out of the year.

Treadmills and biking allow those who are no longer in their first blush of youth, are somewhat disabled, or live in regions with challenging climates to keep their dogs fit year around.

I love to walk my dogs in my local county park. Lots of Hills. I truly do not understand why I am not any slimmer with all the walking I do!!!

But I am grateful I still have my health and am fit enough to walk 2-3 miles five times a week. If I were to lose that then I would definitely be happy to have a treadmill and keeping my dogs fit through the Pennsylvania winter is a real challenge.

 

[jok]

Thank you Karen - very interesting.

From a personal point of view i would never like to go down the route of having to use a treadmill to exercise my dogs.  One of the biggest joys i get from my Whippets is the time we spend out walking together. It is no chore keeping them looking fit :thumbsup:

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yes, Jok, but you are a young, slim gal who can walk and run her own dogs and does not live in someplace like Minnesota where there is ice and snow on the ground five months out of the year.

Treadmills and biking allow those who are no longer in their first blush of youth, are somewhat disabled, or live in regions with challenging climates to keep their dogs fit year around.

I love to walk my dogs in my local county park. Lots of Hills. I truly do not understand why I am not any slimmer with all the walking I do!!!

But I am grateful I still have my health and am fit enough to walk 2-3 miles give times a week. If I were to lose that then I would definitely be happy to have a treadmill and keeping my dogs fit through the Pennsylvania winter is a real challenge.

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Don't think of it as a criticism - i realise these things must be a godsend for some people. I may be less keen to venture out with winters as harsh as those in Pennsylvania! :lol:

I realise i am lucky to be able to enjoy running with the dogs :thumbsup:

 

[patsy]

Thank you Karen - very interesting.

From a personal point of view i would never like to go down the route of having to use a treadmill to exercise my dogs.  One of the biggest joys i get from my Whippets is the time we spend out walking together. It is no chore keeping them looking fit :thumbsup:

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yes, Jok, but you are a young, slim gal who can walk and run her own dogs and does not live in someplace like Minnesota where there is ice and snow on the ground five months out of the year.

Treadmills and biking allow those who are no longer in their first blush of youth, are somewhat disabled, or live in regions with challenging climates to keep their dogs fit year around.

I love to walk my dogs in my local county park. Lots of Hills. I truly do not understand why I am not any slimmer with all the walking I do!!!

But I am grateful I still have my health and am fit enough to walk 2-3 miles give times a week. If I were to lose that then I would definitely be happy to have a treadmill and keeping my dogs fit through the Pennsylvania winter is a real challenge.

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Don't think of it as a criticism - i realise these things must be a godsend for some people. I may be less keen to venture out with winters as harsh as those in Pennsylvania! :lol:

I realise i am lucky to be able to enjoy running with the dogs :thumbsup:

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Jo quite a few years ago a close friends of mine were the first agents for the Starkahund (treadmill) they were the Huxley's of the famous Robroyd Airedales and now their fabulous Black Russian Terriers. Now they wanted to advertise the treadmills with pictures of various breeds using them, they asked me if I would take a whippet over, I took over Ch. Everlasting love, she had never seen a tread mill in her life, when we went into the trimming room and Tom started the machine I thought she would be terrified, not at all she was a natural, he started at a very low speed and then built up, the faster it went the more she liked it , so she appeared on a lot of advertising, then a lady wrote into the breed notes saying how awful it was to see a whippet on a treadmill that this kennels dogs could not have a natural life, thank god Joanna Russell came to my rescue and told the lady that this was totally not true. Later Tom put an advert into the biennial, and yes he did sell a lot to whippet people, quite a few said that they could see how I managed to keep my whippets in top condition, now I was given as a present a top of the range starkahund, I only had three dogs that would go near it, boy did they love it, they only had to hear the rumble of it starting up and they went wild to get their turn. The three that used it were Chs Everlastin Love.Forever Love and Special Brew. All the others flatly refused to move their legs and they could have got their pads badly skinned, I had a go on it and fell and you should have seen the mess of my arms and even worse my boobs. I do not have it now I gave it away and have always enjoyed walking the dogs keeping us all fit. I am no longer young but do enjoy my daily walks with the dogs.

 

[shenace]

Hmmmmm... interesting about the treadmills.... I have just brought a human one with the intention of getting Mrs Soft As You Like into a bit harder condition (w00t)

Now I love walking thru our paddocks with the crew - and we enjoy road walks - or rather - a bunch of whippets dragging me along the road to the next best smell - it is great fun, the kids are on their bikes & me attached to the leads, a whole family affair.

However, unlike a fine wine, aging has not been the most kindest creature :blink: We live in a fairly hilly area & getting dragged from this side of the road to that is not the best for the knee's :unsure: You would think the different terrain would make Mrs Wobbly-bum as fit as a fiddle :thumbsup: NO - It has resulted in buying the most expensive glucosamine for me & a treadmill for "her"!!!!! And I am only just reaching "mid life crisis" era (w00t)

So, I guess it boils down to what you want to present yourself. I agree that a lovely long flat muscle is most appealing and for me is how I interpret the whippet muscle to be, however, I agree that the shorter bunchier muscles do extremely well on the race track (and have current dogs that prove this) same as fronts on show dogs as oppossed to fronts on racing dogs - should be the same if you blueprint the standard, but in reality - they are not.

I totally love the whippet as a breed & can appreciate many different forms of how they are presented - that is the beauty of individaul 'interpretation' - I think that we are all out there for the best of our canine mates :wub: hmmm... may have to push Miss Wobbly Butt off the treadmill so I can shed a few love handles myself :lol: that's if the kids don't beat me to it :teehee:

 

[UKUSA]

The whole exercise thing is an interesting one!I agree , on a show dog I dont like to see a dog over muscled and I agree with the long flat muscle thing too, far more pleasing to look at and feel.I too like to take my dogs over the fields and watch them run, the sheer joy that they exude when they do what they do and like best. However Im of the opinion that where show dogs are concerned a certain amount of caution has to be applied. Young bone can be easily injured and sometimes damaged forever and fronts can be ruined forever .I live opposite theDunstable Downs and my dogs and I love going for our walks there but it is not something that I would do with the dogs that are being shown every day, so consequently we do a lot of road walking. I am lucky in that we have a big dog yard with lots of room for them to play and run but again its controlled.

One of the things that I think really comes home to you when the dogs are hunting etc is how they use ,amongst other things, their necks, Im sure that that is something that really comes home too to the people who are involved in lure coursing. Again one of the differences between the English and American Whippets. I have to say that I love a long neck and when it has a stunning head, ears and expression well that is hard to resist!

Nicky

 

[patsy]

Necks are an area where I think that USA and English whippets do differ. The American necks are much longer and boy do the Americans handle to show them off. I think that over the years the necks in England have got shorter. I remember the days of Mary Sheffield (Hillgarth) she would be sat at ringside and you would always be interested to know what Mary thought of your new star, she would look down and say, it will do its got a neck, don't show me a whippet with a stuffy neck.What do you all think?. Do they need a long neck to pick up the bunny?.

 

[Juley]

Well Poppy the red bitch I used earlier to demonstrate poor heads has a fairly short neck too. ( Poor Poppy, we all do love her to bits anyway). She is the most keen of all mine and I am sure would hunt very well except there are not many bunnies where we walk. However, I personally prefer a longer, more elegant neck and am pleased that both my the litters all have the necks I wanted which they inherited from their sire, I am sure. He is, of course, part USA bred.

 

[seaspot_run]

Our best US open field coursing dogs which hunt the American Jack Rabbit are certainly not noted for long elegant necks, or for underjaw, or any of the other things that make our show dogs so admired for their elegance.

A strong neck, speed pedigree, and rather well-developed jaw muscles seem to be better predictors of function than a long neck and good underjaw.

However, the Jack Rabbit is a good deal stronger, larger, and faster than the traditional prey of the English Whippet. I think that our style of Open Field Coursing is more geared to the larger sighthounds, and the Whippets who are good at it are the equivalent of taking a tank to gunfight when you are talking about hunting the good old 2 pound Peter Cottontail bunny that most of us live around.

I think to catch a rabbit all you really need is good hunting smarts, good conditioning, a strong neck which has something of arch, more than half your own teeth, and some killer instinct.

My best rabbit-killers were not even close to being my fastest racers. They weren't my largest, or my strongest, but what they had that the others didn't was extreme bloodlust! Our Australian import Delta is about as foofy-looking as they come, but she lives to hunt and is very good at it! She has infinite stealth and patience.

I love a long, beautiful neck which flows into the shoulders. I don't consider it a functional necessity--it is another one of those type attributes which differentiates a superb show Whippet from an honest field specimen. They don't need good ears or a straight tail or a nice head or a certain topline or even a deep brisket and nice underline to hunt rabbits, either, but those things are part of breed type because through the decades, fanciers have decided that that's how they want the breed to look, ideally.

Karen Lee

 

[dessie]

My best rabbit-killers were not even close to being my fastest racers.  They weren't my largest, or my strongest, but what they had that the others didn't was extreme bloodlust!   Our Australian import Delta is about as foofy-looking as they come, but she lives to hunt and is very good at it!  She has infinite stealth and patience.

Karen Lee

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Love the word but can we have a translation please as it is not in the OED???!!! LOL!

 

[seaspot_run]

My best rabbit-killers were not even close to being my fastest racers.  They weren't my largest, or my strongest, but what they had that the others didn't was extreme bloodlust!   Our Australian import Delta is about as foofy-looking as they come, but she lives to hunt and is very good at it!  She has infinite stealth and patience.

Karen Lee

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Love the word but can we have a translation please as it is not in the OED???!!! LOL!

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It means what it sounds like!

I just made up that word. Sometimes, I get bored with the selections I have.

Foofy means foo-foo, only a bit foofier.

 

[Natalia]

Foofy means foo-foo, only a bit foofier.

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Sorry, but

 

[Ms Molly]

I think what Karen means is she looks meek as a kitten, but don't let that fool you. We don't call her The Huntress for nothing!!!!.

Molly

 

[Natalia]

I have a question about noses in USA. The standard in USA and Canada says "nose entirely black" (in AKC it was changed a little only weeks ago). But I do see some American whippets, not so rare, in cream colour with brown pigmentation (masking cream gene). My own dog is of this colour and he's half-American, I have never seen a pure English dog in that colour - so, I assume it is much more popular in America or even comes from there. And, some of these dogs do quite well at the shows, sometimes are champions. How do you deal with that colour and pigmentation?

 

[UKUSA]

On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.

Nicky and Patsy