British And American Whippets

[T Hoare]

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Pol. Ch. Tylko Ty Viking's Pride?
Am I right?   :thumbsup:

Had looked at these pics the other day again noticing the difference in presentation.  Lovely dog.

Cheers

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I've been trying to login for the whole day, but I'am finally here.

Yes, the dog is Pol. Ch. Tylko Ty Viking's Pride "Ketil", by Ch. Wolf Tone Viking out of Ch. Barnesmore Hocus Pocus and he's bred and coowned by me. Temporarily living with and being handled by Joanne Boudreault, ForgetMeNot, Canada. Thank you very much for all kind words about him! I didn't expect he could be recognized but it's very nice to hear so. If you are interested, you are mostly welcome to my website www.tylkoty.com to see more pictures of Ketil

Justyna & whippets

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Welcome to K9

 

[anniewhippet]

Pol. Ch. Tylko Ty Viking's Pride?
Am I right?   :thumbsup:

Had looked at these pics the other day again noticing the difference in presentation.  Lovely dog.

Cheers

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​

I've been trying to login for the whole day, but I'am finally here.

Yes, the dog is Pol. Ch. Tylko Ty Viking's Pride "Ketil", by Ch. Wolf Tone Viking out of Ch. Barnesmore Hocus Pocus and he's bred and coowned by me. Temporarily living with and being handled by Joanne Boudreault, ForgetMeNot, Canada. Thank you very much for all kind words about him! I didn't expect he could be recognized but it's very nice to hear so. If you are interested, you are mostly welcome to my website www.tylkoty.com to see more pictures of Ketil

Justyna & whippets

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Welcome to K9 Justyna and you can now expect loads of hits on your site :lol: You must be very proud of your lad and we look forward to updates on his progress.

Enjoy the thread.....

 

[maggie217]

Hi Justyna and welcome to K9, I've already had a look at your website and your stunning boy. :thumbsup: Look forward to hearing more in the future, especially about his trip to the US.

 

Pauline

 

[moonlake]

Thank god there are no angles to coat and skin.The old saying is not far wrong BRED FOR FED FOR AND CARED FOR.

Our Dolly is white pure American and has the most lovely coat and skin, Jason is half American and on his sires side carrying the same lines as Dolly again a lovely coat and skin. I think that in England we have dilutes the pale fawns who usually have a coat and skin to die for. I have found over the years that the dark brindle's do not have as fine a coat and skin as the other colours. Maybe in America with a lot of dark brindle's and hardly any dilutes it could be the answer.

  We feed our dogs a mixture, they do have complete but no more than 20 per cent protein, they do have tins and a lot of tuna and sardines, they also have sunflower oil added to their feed, and we have always been complemented on the condition of our dogs. I used to do chicken wings but had a scare with Russell so will not go along that road again. They also get various biscuit treats and chewies plus a custard cream, forgot they also have a drink of tea with lots of milk.

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Apologies for once again coming in late - I really must log in to K9 more frequently,it's such a good thread. I am surprised that in all the discussion about coat and skin nobody mentioned the difference in the American and English standards. If you do not require a fine coat, there is no earthly reason why breeders should breed for it and I had to keep reminding myself when judging in America that coarse coats are not only OK but preferred. The fact that fine quality ones do occur is simply a gene making its presence felt (literally). I think that the restriction of the gene pool by discriminating against dilute colours is what has led to the harsh American coats but whether the standard was written to prefer them because that is how the whippets belonging to the people who wrote the standard were or whether they came with the requirement for the dark eye, I don't know. Maybe Karen does?

It is easier to breed fine coats and skin - and quality generally - from dilute colours and I fear that a fashion for big black brindles will lead to a general drop in quality, including coarse bone. Running for cover ....

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[dessie]

It is easier to breed fine coats and skin - and quality generally - from dilute colours and I fear that a fashion for big black brindles will lead to a general drop in quality, including coarse bone.  Running for cover ....
Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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LOL!!!

 

[seaspot_run]

Thank god there are no angles to coat and skin.The old saying is not far wrong BRED FOR FED FOR AND CARED FOR.

Our Dolly is white pure American and has the most lovely coat and skin, Jason is half American and on his sires side carrying the same lines as Dolly again a lovely coat and skin. I think that in England we have dilutes the pale fawns who usually have a coat and skin to die for. I have found over the years that the dark brindle's do not have as fine a coat and skin as the other colours. Maybe in America with a lot of dark brindle's and hardly any dilutes it could be the answer.

  We feed our dogs a mixture, they do have complete but no more than 20 per cent protein, they do have tins and a lot of tuna and sardines, they also have sunflower oil added to their feed, and we have always been complemented on the condition of our dogs. I used to do chicken wings but had a scare with Russell so will not go along that road again. They also get various biscuit treats and chewies plus a custard cream, forgot they also have a drink of tea with lots of milk.

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Apologies for once again coming in late - I really must log in to K9 more frequently,it's such a good thread. I am surprised that in all the discussion about coat and skin nobody mentioned the difference in the American and English standards. If you do not require a fine coat, there is no earthly reason why breeders should breed for it and I had to keep reminding myself when judging in America that coarse coats are not only OK but preferred. The fact that fine quality ones do occur is simply a gene making its presence felt (literally). I think that the restriction of the gene pool by discriminating against dilute colours is what has led to the harsh American coats but whether the standard was written to prefer them because that is how the whippets belonging to the people who wrote the standard were or whether they came with the requirement for the dark eye, I don't know. Maybe Karen does?

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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I pretty much said that earlier...that our judges aren't required to look for them so therefore, those quality of coats are much more rare over here (although to be fair, there are some US Whippets without much recent import blood who do have them). But it's not that coarse coats are preferred. It's that so long as the coat has short hairs and lays flat, it's a good US coat and that's that and you have no means to reward any additional "quality" in judging.

To give a Whippet extra consideration in judging because they had a gleaming satin coat over here would be the equivalent of giving a Whippet extra consideration in judging in the UK because it had a darker eye. You can prefer it in your home more, but you can't judge on that because the standard doesn't require it.

My dogs tend to have pretty good coats, although nothing I've bred comes close to my UK import. But when I judge, I'm often very surprised that coats are almost prickly and have a rather dull texture on some of our Whippets, despite their appearing in otherwise excellent physical condition. Diet plays a role and I think some people feed a very high protein diet which is lower in fat to get a lot of lean muscle mass, and this is very true of some of our race breeders as I seldom see a really gleaming coat among the competitive race dogs. You need a little grease and fat in your diet to have a gleaming coat. I add a bit of bacon grease if I feel my dogs' coats are losing some sheen.

As for the dilute thing, that goes back to the Meander kennel and the Shearer sisters, who were very powerful and essentially ran the AWC as their fiefdom for many years. They wanted to promote an American look so that people would buy dogs from the US for showing and not just look to the UK anytime they wanted to start a kennel or buy a big show winner. Although they imported from the UK as all breeders did in that era, their imports were primarily non-dilute yellow fawn dogs from Tiptree, and at the very least, they had a strong personal preference for the dark eye and the non-dilute coat color and at the very worst, they may have wanted to give their dogs a leg up in the ring over a rival kennel, Mardomere, which tended to import more whites and dilutes.

So, the US preference for a dark eye goes back decades. The Shearers were very generous with their stock to breeders starting out and they were influential in shaping the tastes of many of the more important breeders who followed them. Mardomere had fabulous success in the ring, but it was a "closed kennel" and therefore had much less influence on developing new breeders. For awhile, our standard was relaxed, allowing that eyes would be commensurate with coat color, but later revisions, the requirement for dark eyes and black noses held sway. People tend to like what they are used to and people won't give up a competitive advantage easily, so if people had dogs with dark eyes, they voted to keep it that way.

Most of the above has been put into magazine articles and books, but of course some of it is just my opinion.

The first original AKC Whippet standard was basically written around one dog owned and stood at stud by the Shearers--Ch. Mica of Meander. He was considered the ideal for many years here--and was a yellow-fawn dog with black pigment and black eyes.

Karen Lee

 

[meddling]

This is a fascinating thread - except the narky bits :b - hope it gets pinned, maybe editted to leave in the really relevant and educational posts - it's a real living breed description - well done all of you contributors :thumbsup:

 

[seaspot_run]

Oh, one more thing about our standard and eyes...we have a disqualification for china blue eyes or both eyes not being of the same color.

What happened was this..back in the early 50's, Mardomere had a dog out winning who was "odd-eyed" (one dark brown and one pale blue), and so the Shearers had the standard revised and that put through as a disqualification immediately so that that dog or others like it not only couldn't win big, but couldn't even be SHOWN.

That's why we have a disqualification for china blue eyes. I don't know how often you get them in the UK, but we get them in certain lines with some frequency over here. And ironically, they are more likely to show in our non-dilute lines.

I can tell you...if I had the power to single-handedly change our standard, I'd darned sure abuse it! :lol:

 

[UKUSA]

I have been trying to find a recent American Whippet standard and the most recent that I have been able to find and please if anyone has a more recent one please step in, is the one in Patsys book dated effective from Feb 1st 1990. Under the heading Coat this is what it says;

Short, close, smooth and firm in texture. Any other coat shall be a disqualification etc.

Interestingly in Louis Pegrams book The Complete Whippet, the standard in March 1976 read;

Coat and Color;

Close ,smooth and firm in texture A COARSE OR WOOLY COAT should be penalized, color immaterial.

So as I do not have a current copy of the American standard to hand maybe one of our American friends can say whether or not the standard does ask for a harsh or rather coarse coat.

Having owned and still own dark brindles they have never to me seemed any heavier built than my fawns and I have always prided myself on their beautifull soft coats and the shine that I have managed to get on them. I would have thought that heavy coarse bone and whatever goes with it is more a result of the breeding.

Nicky

 

[quintessence]

http://www.americanwhippetclub.net/awcpages/whipstnd.html

Here is the link for the American Standard.

Jenny

 

[seaspot_run]

The AKC Standard

"Coarse" according to AKC terminology means "lacking refinement"...hard to apply that to coats unless you go with the sense of coarse in the manner of more of a rough- or broken-coated terrier type.

The US had some past history of wire-coated Whippets (went extinct in the 20's and have not been seen since), and a recent history of the so-called longhaired Whippet which was developed here, and we now have a standard revision disqualification to exclude any dog with long or silky hair texture.

 

[UKUSA]

Jenny, thank-you for the link and Karen I must have been typing when you posted so sorry if my questions were a bit redundant!

But having read the currentstandard for America and now having read the A.K.C terminology for coarse,I dont see that coarse is asked for at all.

Nicky

 

[patsy]

Just been reading the two standards again. To me they mean the same.

English Fine short close in texture.

American short close smooth and firm in texture.

Now I think that a few of the coats we see here are not close, smooth and silky yes, and very shiny but the hair is longer. When judging at our shows I find that whippets are put into the ring in the most beautiful coat condition, my main moan is they are not in as hard a condition as they could be.

 

[Natalia]

Here are all the standards, with latest updates:

http://www.kashia.net/twa/standard.php

 

[dragonfly]

Just been reading the two standards again. To me they mean the same.  English Fine short close in texture.

  American short close smooth and firm in texture.

Now I think that a few of the coats we see here are not close, smooth and silky yes, and very shiny but the hair is longer. When judging at our shows I find that whippets are put into the ring in the most beautiful coat condition, my main moan is they are not in as hard a condition as they could be.

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I think you only get a really good shine on a short close coat. I don't like the feel of a long coat on a whippet. That short close coat shows up fitness & condition too.

Cathie

 

[moonlake]

The AKC Standard
"Coarse" according to AKC terminology means "lacking refinement"...hard to apply that to coats unless you go with the sense of coarse in the manner of more of a rough- or broken-coated terrier type.

The US had some past history of wire-coated Whippets (went extinct in the 20's and have not been seen since), and a recent history of the so-called longhaired Whippet which was developed here, and we now have a standard revision disqualification to exclude any dog with long or silky hair texture.

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Yes, you're right - I was careless with the terminology and should have made clear that I was extrapolating coarse from firm when I came across the prickly coats you mentioned. I have had the very close, satiny coat and also one with longer hair in the same litter but it's a fine line between satin and silky - unless the latter is shorthand for long?

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[jok]

Patsy has mentioned some Whippets over here not being shown in as hard a condition as they should be. I have been surprised to see how 'soft' some exhibits look, lacking in any sort of hardness or decent muscular condition. I personally do not find it difficult to keep my Whippets looking fit.

How does this compare to America? :thumbsup:

 

[patsy]

Patsy has mentioned some Whippets over here not being shown in as hard a condition as they should be.  I have been surprised to see how 'soft' some exhibits look, lacking in any sort of hardness or decent muscular condition.  I personally do not find it difficult to keep my Whippets looking fit.
How does this compare to America? :thumbsup:

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Jo I have judged twice in America and once in Canada, and yes I found them in harder condition.

 

[shenace]

Patsy has mentioned some Whippets over here not being shown in as hard a condition as they should be.  I have been surprised to see how 'soft' some exhibits look, lacking in any sort of hardness or decent muscular condition.  I personally do not find it difficult to keep my Whippets looking fit.
How does this compare to America? :thumbsup:

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Jo I have judged twice in America and once in Canada, and yes I found them in harder condition.

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I have mostly had dogs with great muscle condition, however, I do have a bitch currently who is really soft in condition - her mother was exactly the same. They have the same amount of free running in the paddock, the same amount of road walking, same diet etc.... but just don't 'harden' up. I know of other lines here in NZ that you have to have more or less no exercise as they muscle up just looking at them. I do think it is bloodlines related to some extent, in the 20 yrs I have had whippets I have always presented them beautifully - however, it is very frustrating having these 'softer' dogs. Crikey, if I did much more the others would look like musclemen on steriods (w00t)

 

[anniewhippet]

I do agree about the muscle tone and lack of it in some of the exhibits and wonder why when the Whippet is quite an easy dog to exercise.

However I also wonder why sometimes it can be harder to 'fitten up' some dogs. I had a bitch years ago who no matter how much free running, road walking etc I gave her, she just did not feel in the type of muscle condition I was looking for.