British And American Whippets

[Strike Whippets]

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On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you  all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.Nicky and Patsy

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Well I'm sorry to hear this ......but I do think it is good that this has been brought up .......I think there are problems in most lines of dogs around the world !! .....and if we all sit back and do nothing where will we be ?? .....Its a very blinkered view of my lines fine, so I'm OK .....Just think when people need to out cross (which we ALL need to do) ......Just think if that stud dog owner wasn't truthful ..... I say it should all be out in the open :thumbsup:

 

[seaspot_run]

I have a question about noses in USA. The standard in USA and Canada says "nose entirely black" (in AKC it was changed a little only weeks ago). But I do see some American whippets, not so rare, in cream colour with brown pigmentation (masking cream gene). My own dog is of this colour and he's half-American, I have never seen a pure English dog in that colour - so, I assume it is much more popular in America or even comes from there. And, some of these dogs do quite well at the shows, sometimes are champions. How do you deal with that colour and pigmentation?

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Ok, at the risk of bringing down more annoyance, there are certainly creams in the UK, and I know this because my English import bitch produced them bred to my male (who is obviously also a cream carrier but had not produced them bred to any of the bitches he's been put to over here other than her).

I'd imagine they are uncommon, but I've always wondered if the earliest identifiable cream Whippet was White Statue of C...... (can't spell it and too lazy to go look it up). Also, there was a Badgewood dog I saw pictured (a Ligonier son) as well as several other past UK champions that I would suspect were creams, although in a black and white photo, especially without a sharp resolution, it's pretty hard to tell.

A couple of our very BEST stud dogs over the past few decades are carriers of cream and therefore, we don't see them that uncommonly. If they are JUST cream, but not also a blue dilute and a cream, the nose leather can be dark enough to pass, especially if you do what most do and give them a lot of kelp in their food and let them spend a lot of time out in the sun to darken the pigment naturally. There are also products that can be put on the noses to make them black, but those aren't legal.

The foundation bitch of the Chelsea kennel was a cream...I knew her well..so was Ch. Whippoorwill Brite Flare, the beautiful and highly-respected Ch. Antares Perlier, and a number of others who figure in a lot of pedigrees due to their producing ability or a very famous and popular offspring.

I get them from time to time. There's not a lot of market for a cream show prospect in the USA as they are presumed to be starting from a disadvantage, so it's pretty much the option of the breeder to keep them and put in the effort to show and finish them, and then use them in a breeding program. There are many successful examples of this, so there's no reason a breeder shouldn't try, but a cream will probably not win at the highest levels here because their pigment carries with it an automatic penalty.

It would be nice to change that wording of our standard, but despite several attempts, they just keep sending it back to the membership devoid of any wording which would truly put the paler pigment that goes along with certain ALLOWED colors on an equal footing with the non-dilute, non-creams. Ah well. You can't fight city hall, as they say.

So, the deal with the creams is that they have to be a bit better than most of the non-creams they will be competing with in the classes. So most of them go to pet homes but the ones that are shown are usually, other than nose pigment, really good specimens of the breed and turn out to be useful producers.

I would imagine that since the UK standard doesn't penalize them, the lack of creams in the modern ring may have something to do with either rarity of the gene or the fact that perhaps breeders just don't like them. I've been told that the British show folks don't like black-masked solid reds and those don't win, even though the blue dilute version of that color is popular and very competitive. So the solid reds just don't get shown.

To be honest, it's not the most popular color over here, either, but there are a lot of red and whites in our ring and people really do like the true, dark, deep red so long as it's a particolor and the mask doesn't cover most of the face.

 

[Judy]

White Statue Of Conevan

Are you talking about genetically masking cream dogs which can produce blacks, blues or brindles when mated to a fawn dog or cream coloured dogs which can be produced by a fawn dog with the Chinchilla gene which lightens fawn pigment?

There are genetic masking cream dogs in this country but probably very few.

 

[seaspot_run]

White Statue Of Conevan 
Are you talking about genetically masking cream dogs which can produce blacks, blues or brindles when mated to a fawn dog or cream coloured dogs which can be produced by a fawn dog with the Chinchilla gene which lightens  fawn pigment?

There are genetic masking cream dogs in this country but probably very few.

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Cream is a masking gene which eliminates the black/blue pigment in the coat, and greatly washes out red and yellow. You can breed a cream to a fawn and get bright red brindles over here. The cream is actually carrying red and brindle, but can't express that in the coat. I've seen so many of them I can pretty much tell if a cream is the cream of a red or the cream of a yellow fawn, but nobody can tell by looking if that dog is the cream of a brindle.

 

[Judy]

On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you  all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.Nicky and Patsy

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Hopefully you do not mean this quite like it reads - it sounds like you are accusing K9 Community of tying your hands, presumably it is not K9 itself you are accusing. As you know, this forum provides a place for you and others to discuss topics of interest and you are free to raise any issues you want, answer whatever posts you want, disagree or agree with any other posts you want. We do not restrict free speech in any way, the only stipulation we make is that your posts should not break K9 Community rules.

 

[dragonfly]

On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you  all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.Nicky and Patsy

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In what way I wonder has the British whippet been brought into disrepute. I too have received a slew of supportive messages from the whippet world internationally. Many of them from breeders with problems in their lines who are looking for solutions. Thankfully a forum such as this enables contact and fosters support between breeders who in years gone by would never meet up. Long may it continue and long may we share and debate.

Cathie

 

[Natalia]

White Statue Of Conevan 
Are you talking about genetically masking cream dogs which can produce blacks, blues or brindles when mated to a fawn dog or cream coloured dogs which can be produced by a fawn dog with the Chinchilla gene which lightens  fawn pigment?

There are genetic masking cream dogs in this country but probably very few.

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Cream is a masking gene which eliminates the black/blue pigment in the coat, and greatly washes out red and yellow. You can breed a cream to a fawn and get bright red brindles over here. The cream is actually carrying red and brindle, but can't express that in the coat. I've seen so many of them I can pretty much tell if a cream is the cream of a red or the cream of a yellow fawn, but nobody can tell by looking if that dog is the cream of a brindle.

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The cream can also carry black or blue. Beacuse of my dog's pedigree, he can be black, blue, brindle, blue brindle, or (unlikely) red or fawn under the cream. I'm not able to tell as he has never have puppies.

 

[seaspot_run]

White Statue Of Conevan 
Are you talking about genetically masking cream dogs which can produce blacks, blues or brindles when mated to a fawn dog or cream coloured dogs which can be produced by a fawn dog with the Chinchilla gene which lightens  fawn pigment?

There are genetic masking cream dogs in this country but probably very few.

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Cream is a masking gene which eliminates the black/blue pigment in the coat, and greatly washes out red and yellow. You can breed a cream to a fawn and get bright red brindles over here. The cream is actually carrying red and brindle, but can't express that in the coat. I've seen so many of them I can pretty much tell if a cream is the cream of a red or the cream of a yellow fawn, but nobody can tell by looking if that dog is the cream of a brindle.

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The cream can also carry black or blue. Beacuse of my dog's pedigree, he can be black, blue, brindle, blue brindle, or (unlikely) red or fawn under the cream. I'm not able to tell as he has never have puppies.

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This is true. My friend Karen Turner who is a great collector of color genetics data finally found the Holy Grail of cream collecting...a cream-masked solid black. Bred to a fawn and white, there were black puppies in the litter.

We knew it had to be possible, but as the lines in the USA which were our black lines didn't go back to the same lines that introduced the cream factor for many years, there were no examples. However, with the recent surge in popularity of black whippets here, those lines have now been crossed enough that there is at least one line where black and cream are now present in the line at the same time.

Karen Lee

 

[Judy]

White Statue Of Conevan 
Are you talking about genetically masking cream dogs which can produce blacks, blues or brindles when mated to a fawn dog or cream coloured dogs which can be produced by a fawn dog with the Chinchilla gene which lightens  fawn pigment?

There are genetic masking cream dogs in this country but probably very few.

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Cream is a masking gene which eliminates the black/blue pigment in the coat, and greatly washes out red and yellow. You can breed a cream to a fawn and get bright red brindles over here. The cream is actually carrying red and brindle, but can't express that in the coat. I've seen so many of them I can pretty much tell if a cream is the cream of a red or the cream of a yellow fawn, but nobody can tell by looking if that dog is the cream of a brindle.

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The cream can also carry black or blue. Beacuse of my dog's pedigree, he can be black, blue, brindle, blue brindle, or (unlikely) red or fawn under the cream. I'm not able to tell as he has never have puppies.

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This is true. My friend Karen Turner who is a great collector of color genetics data finally found the Holy Grail of cream collecting...a cream-masked solid black. Bred to a fawn and white, there were black puppies in the litter.

We knew it had to be possible, but as the lines in the USA which were our black lines didn't go back to the same lines that introduced the cream factor for many years, there were no examples. However, with the recent surge in popularity of black whippets here, those lines have now been crossed enough that there is at least one line where black and cream are now present in the line at the same time.

Karen Lee

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Thats what I meant. I was trying to make clear whether all the cream dogs you were talking about were cream because they had the masking gene or whether they were in fact just very pale fawns, as not all cream phenotypes are genetically the same. Seems you meant creams with the masking gene though :thumbsup:

 

[Eceni]

On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you  all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.Nicky and Patsy

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I think it's worth pointing out that the lists of diseases/syndromes raised in the other thread were from a US-based web site and that several of those posting have been doing so from countries other than the UK

however, it remains the case that the UK is the whippet's founding country and that the core of the bloodlines come from here.

Your message-senders should be aware that NONE of these issues is exclusive to the UK and that the failure to maintain a diverse population is a worldwide problem (across all breeds, not just the whippet) and that action needs to be taken on a world-wide basis by people who genuinely have the interests of the breed at heart.

Now that we have the scientific background for doing that, you have some serious ammunition to use, should you choose to use it, to back up a need for some serious number crunching of pedigrees across all the breed registries worldwide to find out how many genuinely diverse lines still exist. I suspect they will be fewer than you think or I would like.

this is about the dogs and their future, not about personal politics, ego or protection of turf

Manda Scott

 

[bertha]

On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you  all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.Nicky and Patsy

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I think it's worth pointing out that the lists of diseases/syndromes raised in the other thread were from a US-based web site and that several of those posting have been doing so from countries other than the UK

however, it remains the case that the UK is the whippet's founding country and that the core of the bloodlines come from here.

Bertha coming in.

You are so right, too many people are hung up on covering up the truth, they all may say they are open and honest, but I know for a fact they are not. I can go back to my first litter bred in 1973, I had three out of six with cleft palates and was told by the stud dog breeder and my bitches breeder, not to go round telling people. That litter were from lines behind so many dogs today is it any wonder we have problems?

Honesty is not something breeders come easily to, everyone want to think their lines are perfect,

we need to grow up before it is too late.

Bertha logging out, don't know what happened

Your message-senders should be aware that NONE of these issues is exclusive to the UK and that the failure to maintain a diverse population is a worldwide problem (across all breeds, not just the whippet) and that action needs to be taken on a world-wide basis by people who genuinely have the interests of the breed at heart.

Now that we have the scientific background for doing that, you have some serious ammunition to use, should you choose to use it, to back up a need for some serious number crunching of pedigrees across all the breed registries worldwide to find out how many genuinely diverse lines still exist. I suspect they will be fewer than you think or I would like.

this is about the dogs and their future, not about personal politics, ego or protection of turf

Manda Scott

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[seaspot_run]

Here is a favorite photo of Mabel, her older red brindle daughter, and her young blue-cream son waiting to be tossed pancakes in my kitchen.

 

[Zephyr]

In what way I wonder has the British whippet been brought into disrepute. I too have received a slew of supportive messages from the whippet world internationally. Many of them from breeders with problems in their lines who are looking for solutions. Thankfully a forum such as this enables contact and fosters support between breeders who in years gone by would never meet up. Long may it continue and long may we share and debate.
Cathie

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I couldn't agree more. I think both threads have been informative and educational and allowed diverse opinions to be discussed. This is a discussion forum at its best and it would be a great shame if we felt we couldn't discuss things openly and honestly, and in most cases courteously and with dignity too.

 

[jthatton]

I am staggered that whippet people who have so much experience and knowledge to offer would rather throw their dummies out of the pram than state their point and stand their ground when they feel so strongly.

I hope we don't look back in 10 years time and think "I wish we could have tackled this problem before it got out of hand". Who is bringing the breed into disrepute? Sensible people who acknowledge a problem and want to tackle it TO IMPROVE THE BREED or people who want to deny the problem and just keep saying most of their whippets have lived to a ripe old age? What about the ones that haven't? :rant:

 

[dragonfly]

On behalf of patsy and myself we would like to let you all know that we will no longer be posting on this or any other thread . We have both really enjoyed this particular thread and feel that there is lots more to talk about however we feel very strongly that the thread dealing with breeding, genetics etc has brought the British Whippet into disrepute and we will not post on any board which ties your hands. We have both had e.mails from around the world from people who are wondering what has gone wrong with English Whippets.Once again just to say how much we have enjoyed discussing with you  all things Whippet, a breed that we are passionate about.Nicky and Patsy

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​

I think it's worth pointing out that the lists of diseases/syndromes raised in the other thread were from a US-based web site and that several of those posting have been doing so from countries other than the UK

however, it remains the case that the UK is the whippet's founding country and that the core of the bloodlines come from here.

Your message-senders should be aware that NONE of these issues is exclusive to the UK and that the failure to maintain a diverse population is a worldwide problem (across all breeds, not just the whippet) and that action needs to be taken on a world-wide basis by people who genuinely have the interests of the breed at heart.

Now that we have the scientific background for doing that, you have some serious ammunition to use, should you choose to use it, to back up a need for some serious number crunching of pedigrees across all the breed registries worldwide to find out how many genuinely diverse lines still exist. I suspect they will be fewer than you think or I would like.

this is about the dogs and their future, not about personal politics, ego or protection of turf

Manda Scott

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Very true. Reduced diversity is a worldwide problem I don't understad why people cannot try to be more objetive. This is not a personal issue, it needs all breeders worldwide pulling together. I would be extremely interested to know what if anything has been done to maintain genetic diversity in other countries, (I know that certain kennel clubs discourage close matings) Can anyone from abroad who has read these threads please tell us?

Have any country's whippet breeders or clubs started a pedigree database?

Cathie

 

[Strike Whippets]

I am staggered that whippet people who have so much experience and knowledge to offer would rather throw their dummies out of the pram than state their point and stand their ground when they feel so strongly.
I hope we don't look back in 10 years time and think "I wish we could have tackled this problem before it got out of hand". Who is bringing the breed into disrepute? Sensible people who acknowledge a problem and want to tackle it TO IMPROVE THE BREED or people who want to deny the problem and just keep saying most of their whippets have lived to a ripe old age? What about the ones that haven't? :rant:

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Couldn't agree more :thumbsup: ....

I think a database on lines with the problems known in them is a very good idea ..... It'll help in breeding programs .....

 

[seaspot_run]

I am staggered that whippet people who have so much experience and knowledge to offer would rather throw their dummies out of the pram than state their point and stand their ground when they feel so strongly.
I hope we don't look back in 10 years time and think "I wish we could have tackled this problem before it got out of hand". Who is bringing the breed into disrepute? Sensible people who acknowledge a problem and want to tackle it TO IMPROVE THE BREED or people who want to deny the problem and just keep saying most of their whippets have lived to a ripe old age? What about the ones that haven't? :rant:

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Couldn't agree more :thumbsup: ....

I think a database on lines with the problems known in them is a very good idea ..... It'll help in breeding programs .....

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The Whippet Health Foundation of the AWC has a Database and Website for people who want to upload info about their dogs (good and bad)...there is no reason someone outside the US couldn't input data, but it's a bit of a cumbersome process. I've been trying to add info on my own dogs at a rate of two records per week, but it's trying....

Anyhow, if people here want to look at what the parent club in the US has started, they can look at that link and see if they think a similar thing would be useful.

Karen Lee

 

[Natalia]

Here is a favorite photo of Mabel, her older red brindle daughter, and her young blue-cream son waiting to be tossed pancakes in my kitchen.

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Your seems to be much darker than mine (photo take at similar age probably)

 

[patsy]

Back by popular demand. For those of you that are interested in following the American Nationals in Oregon the first classes are up on the wonderful online whippet mag. www.ewhippetzine.com There certainly seems to be some very promising youngsters. If we win the lottery this weekend there will be a offer for a black and white puppy bitch. How interesting in both here and America this colour is coming out of the doldrums, I think if Savuka win the lottery they would buy a little black dress. Look at the size of these dogs and bitches not a bit oversize.

 

[UKUSA]

Darn right Patsy, a top class Little Black Dress is always usefull. I wonder if they could be persuaded to send her to Savuka. I am really enjoying this wonderful site, its just like being there. Some fabulous youngsters, very exciting, I look forward to the specials.

Nicky