Electric Shock Collars

[zilloot]

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I know someone who used an electric collar to train a gundog. The dog was running in after rabbits (a big nono) and slow on recall. This was a very promising dog but also very strong willed and intelligent; long-lining hadn't worked because the dog knew when it wasn't on a line and still took off.

The collar gave a beep and then a shock. He only used the shock once and it stopped the dog in its tracks, yes it yelped, but no real harm was done. It looked round at the trainer for re-assurance because that was the person it had the bond with and who it trusted. He gave it the appropriate command and it responded correctly. If anything it increased the bond with the handler because he was the 'safe' place to be.

After that the dog only needed to hear the beep to respond correctly. Then it learned that if it wasn't wearing the collar it wouldn't beep... so back to square one. But the dog's trust was in the handler so it soon realised what was required of it and the whole problem was solved. I think the dog was only 'shocked' ever twice in the whole time using the collar. The shock certainly didn't harm it and was a last resort. The 'beep' was the highly effective training tool in the longer term.

I think that was entirely responsible work by an extremely compassionate handler, and like I say, a last resort. The dog adored and trusted this person and they went on to become a winning team.

So, they have their place I suppose although I would never use one on a whippet.

 

[flyballcrazy]

I have seen first hand what these barbaric collars can do

when i was at the vets waiting to be seen a bearded collie came in with very nasty burns to his neck cause by a shock collar :angry:

if your dog doesn't recall then leave your dog on the lead teach your dog by line training and positive methods instead of quick fixes and fear related training like shock collars

you say that you have tried them on yourself but have you put them round you neck and tried on youtude sometime ago i saw some people with them on and they where crying in pain could you really put anything so cruel on you dog i know i couldn't :angry:

 

[posh totty]

been reading this subject with interest as it has a balanced for and against , i have never used one of these collars but after reading through i certainly wouldnt rule one out if the circumstances arose, rather give shock then let my dog get killed or cause an accident? i can also see the theory that its not connected with the trainer as there is a distance and a dog with a bond is certain to run to those he trusts when something unpleasant occurs? i personally think that anything can be used to cause harm in the wrong hands , they shouldnt be freely available and have restrictions or courses to use them correctly , there are people on here who are knowledgable dog persons whom have tried all else and probably had a few battles within themselves before using them but then did and got great results and therefore the problem was solved and collar redundant, so was therefore effective in their hands, back to a well trained and responsive dog with no damage to their relationship.

i read a book a long time ago on the training of argentinas polo pony ponies, the author was the infamous Barbera woodhouse! but she spent many years before dogs in polo ponies, and was sicken by the rough methods of training of the ponies , so she developed a way of making them light in the hands by breaking them in with a pelham bit!!! for those of you who dont know horses this is a sharp long sided straight bar mouthpiece which works on poll action, would stike horror into those in the know so to speak? but please try to find the book and read , you will be so surpised, she broke them gently and all had soft mouths and far more kindly responsive then by using the traditional snaffle ( jointed bit works on the nutcracker action in the mouth) so to me imo it just shows that something we automatically think of as cruel and spiteful can be used and gain results without harm coming?

anything can be cruel used incorrectly and with harsh hands , jmo :thumbsup:

 

[TC]

I know someone who used an electric collar to train a gundog.  The dog was running in after rabbits (a big nono) and slow on recall.  This was a very promising dog but also very strong willed and intelligent; long-lining hadn't worked because the dog knew when it wasn't on a line and still took off.
The collar gave a beep and then a shock.  He only used the shock once and it stopped the dog in its tracks, yes it yelped, but no real harm was done.  It looked round at the trainer for re-assurance because that was the person it had the bond with and who it trusted.  He gave it the appropriate command and it responded correctly.  If anything it increased the bond with the handler because he was the 'safe' place to be.

After that the dog only needed to hear the beep to respond correctly.  Then it learned that if it wasn't wearing the collar it wouldn't beep... so back to square one.  But the dog's trust was in the handler so it soon realised what was required of it and the whole problem was solved.  I think the dog was only 'shocked' ever twice in the whole time using the collar.  The shock certainly didn't harm it and was a last resort.  The 'beep' was the highly effective training tool in the longer term.

I think that was entirely responsible work by an extremely compassionate handler, and like I say, a last resort.  The dog adored and trusted this person and they went on to become a winning team.

So, they have their place I suppose although I would never use one on a whippet.

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(w00t) I have been reading through the whole of this thread and going mad at how people perceive these collars. I was dying to get to the end in some respects so I could explain about the warning beep, and lo and behold an informed intelligent person had beaten me to it...Well done Fiona :thumbsup:

Like all things (and I know it's already been said) ANY training aid or method can produce mental or physical problems.

At the end of the day, if used correctly these collars can be the difference betwen life and death for some dogs. If one or two shocks are necessary I believe that is a small price to pay for quality of life to be resumed, or in some cases life to be retained.

There are always going to be strong feelings about this, and the thread will probably go round in circles, but it will hopefully have made some people aware of the fact that electric shock collars are not implements of torture when used in the right hands.

We all rush to get up in arms about so many things, and we all know that fear can so easily be instilled in a dog by the use of items such as a check/choke chain, a newspaper, and various other items. In fact, I seem to remember watching an episode of Dog Borstal where they reiterated how important it is to not use a shaker bottle without the advice and training from a professional.

I'm not going to dispute that in the wrong hands these collars could cause a dog harm, but I suppose my point would be that a novice in the knowledge of a dog's mindset could turn an animal into a jubbering wreck with just about anything.

The question here was about originally about dogs in kennels, and I have to say I would be concerned as to how the collar was being used in that situation. I can imagine it being used incorrectly and being an ongoing trauma.

If the question had been about use in the circumstances we have described (i.e. lack of recall in a running dog) then I would say it was totally bonafide if used correctly, and would also be a very quick process.

I have used one, not on a whippie and quite a few years ago and it worked. The dog would have been pts if the issue was not corrected, and the collar did the job, and very quickly at that. I too, like others tried the collar on myself.

It's very easy to have strong feelings about many things, but often people are swayed by the media, who arrive at their position based on the idiocy of certian people. It's very easy to get on the bandwagon, but I'm a great believer of having an open mind :thumbsup:

TCx

 

[mally]

I have seen first hand what these barbaric collars can do
when i was at the vets waiting to be seen a bearded collie came in with very nasty burns to his neck cause by a shock collar :angry:

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That is not at all possible i think you've got mixed up with a dog getting caught up in electric sheep fencing.

people making assumptions again without having any experience with these collars.

 

[quintessence]

Twice in these posts I have read that if a shock collar had not been used the dogs in question would have been put to sleep which concerns me. Could it not be that there is a deeper problem with the dogs concerned that could have been inherited. The use of the shock collar it seems solves the present problem but what about the problem of the dog breeding on these inherited traits.

Jenny

 

[beaker]

i can't see how a collar could cause burns unless some stupid git had tried to make there own and buggered it up.

the proffesionally built collars i have come across, have different settings from painless tingle that is usefull when you are wanting to distract the dogs attention away from something to quick shock, on the highest setting.

the emphasis is "quick"

even if you kept the button depressed they would only give one, quick, split second correction, then stop.

 

[mally]

Twice in these posts I have read that if a shock collar had not been used the dogs in question would have been put to sleep which concerns me.  Could it not be that there is a deeper problem with the dogs concerned that could have been inherited.  The use of the shock collar it seems solves the present problem but what about the problem of the dog breeding on these inherited traits. 
Jenny

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The reason i would have had Tess PTS if i couldn't stop her from going deaf and running off hunting was for the following reasons.

1/ I wouldn't beable to live with myself if Tess had run across a road and causing a fatal road accident.

2/ i believe all whippets should be able to do what they were bred to do, Run. I know that alot of members on this site can never let there dogs off there lead in fear they would never return. Well IMO this is unacceptable and they should be prossecuted for cruelty.

I got Tess at 8 months old so i couldn't train her at an early age, Beleive me i tried everything with Tess before i bought the electric collar.

As for Tess having inherited problems, If you consider the drive to hunt and work an inherited problem then all of my dogs are sufferers of that problem. It's just my job to channel there working instinct and harness it to how i want them to work for me.

My dogs are working dogs and when i'm out with them they represent me, If they are not doing what they are told then that looks bad on me. Thats why it's so important to me that my dogs behave impeccably whilst out in the field. I find it totally unacceptable to read on this forum about dogs dissapearing for 20 minutes and the owners doing nothing about it

i beleive i've acted in the best interest for Tess and if anyone would like to argue with that fact they are welcome to do so.

 

[TC]

Twice in these posts I have read that if a shock collar had not been used the dogs in question would have been put to sleep which concerns me.  Could it not be that there is a deeper problem with the dogs concerned that could have been inherited.  The use of the shock collar it seems solves the present problem but what about the problem of the dog breeding on these inherited traits. 
Jenny

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Hi Jenny, if you are referring to my post, this was very headstrong dog with an issue. Other traditional methods had failed, where as the collar worked.

The problem was caused by mistreatment from a human being, not breeding. It was also solved very quickly with the use of the collar, and never reoccurred :thumbsup:

 

[quintessence]

I feel pretty inadequate commenting further on this thread but I just want to say that most people have commented that shock collars have a use if used by a competent person implying that if not used by a competent person there is a problem, and this is the part that worries me. I'm not attempting to be contentious I just can't stand the thought of a dog suffering because one of these collars was used by an incompetent person, that's all.

Jenny

 

[TC]

I feel pretty inadequate commenting further on this thread but I just want to say that most people have commented  that shock collars have a use if used by a competent person implying that if not used by a competent person there is a problem, and this is the part that worries me.  I'm not attempting to be contentious I just can't stand the thought of a dog suffering because one of these collars was used by an incompetent person, that's all.
Jenny

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Jenny, I am sure the other's that have used them feel the same as me...I wholeheartedly agree with you re incompetent people.

 

[masta]

It all boils down to the perception of cruel? Is it cruel to use a device that delivers a low level shock and has been proven to work, (re the post about the beardie with burns? Do you honestly believe a dog product would be allowed to go to market that has the potential to cause that kind of harm for one thing its counter productive to sales and secondly the manufacturer has to prove safety for their licence) or is it cruel to allow a sighthound to be unruly and dangerous off lead and not to try every possible training method to put it right? Mally is right your dog represents you and i for one will not allow bad recall it is dangerous and embrassing thankfully mine are ok but if either had a problem that i couldnt sort with traditional methods i would look to any available solution

 

[Seraphina]

The only way I would imagine this collar could inflict burns would be if it was faulty. Although I wonder what would the impliction be if the dog is wet??? Human neck is lot more sensitive than dog's, and even whippet has little bit of hair to reduce the electric shock. Therefore i would not recomend for anybody to try it on there own neck. Also, even if the dog yelps does not necesarily mean it is in pain, it could be surprised by the strange tingle.

The reason why i say it has to be only used by a competent person is, that the timing has to be precise to be most effective. The trainer has to have a good understanding of his dog, he needs to know how the dog reacts, and the dog must understand what he supposes to do, just for one reason or other ignore the command. If you put this collar on and just start zapping it is not going to acchieve anything.

 

[Denis Carthy]

Rach125Hi, i was just wondering if anyone has used/seen used/ or completley disagree with the use of these electric shock collars?I have the opportunity of a part time job in kennels, they look good are very clean and the dogs are out of the kennel most of the time. The only thing putting me off is the use of these collars. I was just wondering wat every one thinks of them?

Denis

Hi Rach - I have read quite a few posts here and the posts seem split into two, those who have never seen a modern e-collar, know nothing about modern e-collars, would not even be able to name a make or model of e-collar and why one is different to the next, have no idea whatsoever of how they work or if they are of benefit to owners and dogs or not. That group has no interest in education about modern e-collars at all and worst still are unable to give any factual information about them whatsoever and clearly that groups preference it is to promote and spread their own ignorance like a disease.

Based on the way some of that group writes they imply they know more than those have taken the time, trouble and expense in learning about them who unanimously are telling you the massive benefits and raising of the quality of life of both their dogs and their own lives because they have gone to the trouble of finding out about them, their preference has been to work hard towards benefiting their dog by learning modern advanced methods with an e-collar and they are spreading education like a vaccination against disease of blissful ignorance.

If you sent a child to school who would you expect or prefer to teach it the teacher with knowledge of the subject or a child in a class below who does not even know what the subject means? - I hope that gives you a bit of a guideline as to whether or not you should go to these kennels and learn whether or not you like what you see and learn or forever stay oblivious to learning new things.

 

[Denis Carthy]

flyballcrazyI have seen first hand what these barbaric collars can do

when i was at the vets waiting to be seen a bearded collie came in with very nasty burns to his neck cause by a shock collar

Denis

That’s totally impossible, there is not one single case of burning in the world. That sort of propoganda hes been put out by those with commercial interests and when they were put on the line of put up or shut up by DEFRA they could not put up one single case.

Can you name the vets so this can be checked out ? – such a brash categorical statement must be substantiated or dismissed as non – factual, so please give the name of the veterinary practice where you saw this and I will check it out, either that or people should dismiss your claim as being totally unsupported.

 

[Denis Carthy]

EviePersonally, I think they should be banned.

Denis

Well get used to being disappointed - the government passed the new Animal Welfare Act which became law on April 6th, it also rejected a private members bill on April 27th because the MP did not have enough support, so, it's not government policy, they do not care what you think, I don't care what you think and my dog is nothing to do with an anonymous name on an internet forum who knows nothing about my dog, me or e-collars.

From Human Society of United States 2002. [ not anonymous]

Below is by the vice-president for research and educational out reach for the

Humane Society of the United States, Randolph Lockwood P.H.D. Their research was done in 1998 and they probably used quite limited collars then compared to todays options, only Tri Tronics had developed the first modern collar in 1998.

 

{ His P H D. is in comparative and physiological psychology, with an

emphasis on dog behaviour and the interaction between people and animals.

He served as a member of the American veterinary medical association

task

force on humane canine interaction and was one of about 40 professional

animal behaviourists and trainers asked to participate in the long term

efforts of the Delta Society and American Humane Society to draft

standards for dog trainers. These were published in 2001 by the Delta Society as

professional standards for dog trainers: effective, humane principles. (

the Delta society is a dog therapy training organisation )

 

They feel that new technology employed by responsible manufacturers has

led to products that can be and are being used safely and effectively to

preserve the safety and well-being are of many dogs and strengthen the

bond of their human companions. These positions were outlined in Article

electronic training aid in the magazine HSUS news summer 1998 by L Staff

veterinarian, Dr Lesley Sinclair.

 

HSUS and the Delta Society Working Group recognise that there is a wide

variety of products and an equally wide range of users. Any tools,

including a simple leash and collar, may be ineffective or even abusive

if improperly used. Electronic training aids that are improperly designed,

maintained, fitted, adjusted or implied may also represent risks, but

they're proper use in conjunction with the reward based basic obedience

training has demonstrated benefits to many thousands of dogs and their

owners

 

Randolph Lockwood has shared a variety of these products with staff and

friends who were experiencing the problem behaviours including excessive

barking and escaping. All of these problems were successfully resolved

after brief instruction in the safe and humane use of these products,

involving very few are averse to stimuli at very low levels. Randolph

Lockwood feels that such schools are an important contribution to the

Tool box of resources for helping keep well-behaved animals in lifelong homes.

]

Sincerely,

Randolph Lockwood, P.H.D.

Vice President, research and educational outreach

 

[Denis Carthy]

Rach125

used the term - Electric Shock Collars

Denis

There are no electric shock collars Rach125, modern e-collars are electro pulse muscle stimulation technology, electric shock collars was electric shock technology they have been obsolete for over 20 years.

The correct terminology for modern collars is e-collars or static collars below is what electric shock collars were:

History & Evolution of The Modern E-Collar.

Chapter 1.

In The Begining.

 

The Specific Use,

Electric Shock Collar.

 

Germany-UK 1950?s - late 1980's.

There have been e-collars of one sort or another in the UK in civilian hands since around the 1950?s, these were usually brought over from Germany by service personnel and either sold on or loaned by them. A firm called Karenswood, I think from Solihull, used to get them to order or hire. Specific use Electric Shock Collars were very rare, the ones in civilian use were originated by a German Vet as a safety device to be used with his own hunting dogs instead of flat buckle and other collars, know to be highly damaging to the neck vertebrate and other skeletal structures.

The only collars I knew of in the UK between 1976 and around the late 80?s were electric shock collars, long since obsolete. I was told in 1976, when I first used one, that electric shock collars first came into use in WW2 and were of German origin, I have no reason to doubt this and some German contacts confirm some sort of electric shock collar was known to be in military use in Germany at that time.

The difference between an electric shock collar and modern remote trainers was the fact that the e-shock collar had two contact points which contacted either side of the neck, 2 or 3 inches below the ears. Once fired the shock went into the neck and met the electric shock from the other contact point on the other side of the neck. The e-shock collar I used in 1976 and once in the late eighties with someone else’s dog was German in origin, it was not remote and was an electric shock collar.

They had one very high level and could not be adjusted to the individual dog. They were only used in extreme circumstances or the out in protection work. They were never designed or intended for ordinary pet use and were not a training collar. They were designed solely for high drive working line dogs and were sometimes used in conjunction with a method and other aids with some pet dogs which had aggression or sheep chasing problems and were in a life, death or rescue situation.

Electric shock collars were rare in the UK, everyone I know who were training in either protection sports or training the protection dogs of that point in time as well as many show dog people had heard of electric shock collars? but few people had ever seen them and fewer still had ever used them. If I had not rescued a dog from Battersea dogs home I would probably never have seen them, even so a lot of myths about them and their use abounded in those days.

There was a more recent electric shock collar which was also made in Germany, possibly by the same manufacturer. It had the same electrodes at the side of the neck and the electric shock also went into the neck from either side, the electric shocks from each contact point met in body as before. They had low, medium and high levels and were remote.

These were in use in Europe until the late nineties but no one I have ever spoken to heard of any of them being used here in UK, I saw one in Germany and they seemed to be used pretty much like the old shock collars, as a positive punisher only. It has been illegal to sell these collars for many years, they did not pass the European CE safety standard and were dangerous to humans. The use of these collars fits the description of use given out by KC, APDT, APDT and a few other commercial competitors.

The term electric shock is a recognised scientific term, static electro muscle stimulation collars are incapable of delivering an electric shock, anyone using electric shock as their terminology when referring to electro pulse collars would be misleading others. GP's and the NHS recognises the Blacks medical dictionary as one authority.

Ref

Ch 1 updated 2006.-Remote Electronic Training Collars. Fifty years of UK history, from electric shock to a sensation Second Edition, E-Collars, Historical Clarification, from electric shock to a sensation, 1950s - 2006.

 

[Denis Carthy]

Seraphina

The only way I would imagine this collar could inflict burns would be if it was faulty.

Denis

No certainly not, even the cheap ones are bristling with safety filters, i anything goes wrong they all shut down immediatly. That sort of things is just propoganda put out originally by those with a commercial conflict of interests, feed to the sheep who bleat it out again any chance they get and claim thy actually saw it.

Despite all those claims they have never, ever substantiated any one of them in the world.

Seraphina

Although I wonder what would the impliction be if the dog is wet???

Denis

Nothing, this is extremely advanced technolgy, again, nothing would happen even with the cheaper ones although some of those are only water resistant and cut out if the dog submerses the receiver in water - I use Tri Tronics and both transmitter and receiver are waterproof submersible and work under water.

 

[Lou_Castle]

Wow! Lots of posts. Lots of opinions. Pretty balanced as to those who have experience with Ecollars and those who haven't had any.

One of the problems with these discussions is that few people have any knowledge or experience of modern Ecollars. They may be familiar with older models that had very high levels of stim and were used only to punish behaviors when the dog was doing something undesirable, chasing stock, failing to obey a command, etc.

But modern versions of the tool allow for the stim to be adjusted from the transmitter (the part the owner holds in his hand) from the highest setting to the lowest setting. At the lowest settings, no dog and no human can feel them. Quality units allow the stim to be slowly increased in intensity until it can just barely be felt.

Almost universally, people who feel this level, describe it as a "buzz" or a "tingle." Chldren giggle! Dogs who feel it for the first time do such things as sit and scratch is if they're being bitten by a single flea, flick an ear, blink, look at the ground in front of them, slowly move to a new place or "furrow" their brow.

I call this level, where the dog first feels it his "working level." It's where I do virtually all of my training. It may change as the presence and degree of distraction change, but it's always at the level where the dog feels it in the present situation.

Ecollars nearly always provoke very emotional responses from people because they have seen them misused or abused or heard stories. Some people oppose them because some organizations do. But it's best to keep in mind that some organizations will have at their foundation an allegiance to trainers who use other methods.

I have a website with articles that help people learn to use the tool. It also has a lengthy list of myths about them. I'd suggest that people who are on the fence about these tools or want to learn more about them start here.

http://loucastle.com/myth.htm

 

[galty]

The Kennel Club's view on shock collars:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1236/23/5/3

The Dogs Trust View:

http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/information/po...ollars/text.htm

Gwen Bailey's view:

http://www.dogbehaviour.com/articles/dogs/shockcollars.htm

The APDT's stance:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/press.htm

I could go on - the point being that I can't find one single reputable dog organisation or individual trainer who doesn't want these things banned.

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Has your mind been changed now that some examples have been given.