Greyhound Blood in Non Ped WHIPPET Breeding

[marion]

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Well i'm from Scotland and we are straight up here.

My user name is Marion cos it's my name!!!!!

Can I butt in and ask what is a non-ped and what makes it so fast??

And if it is superior to a Greyhound and a Whippet and I presume a Saluki?? and all that ilk??

Why is it not a breed in it's own right??

I should explain that I own only pedigree whippets and they seem quite fast to me lol!!

Explain also please what 'No-limit' means??

Cos I always thought it meant 'No height,No weight limit' but you seem to be suggesting that it means somthing else??

If you all got together and worked out what crosses were the fastest and crossed them; could you not establish a new breed??!!

I really am interested to know and you all seem so passionate about your dogs that I would love to know about all the breeding and crosses involved and I can assure you I am not remotely interested in your true identity(super man??!!) lol. :thumbsup:

x x

 

[Tony Taylor]

Talking about percentages or fractions ( of ghd in this case) is meaningless past the first cross whippet to ghd other than to indicate a particular dogs ancestory. It does not give any indication as to the amount of ghd or whippet derived genes, genetic material or "blood" a particular offspring has. There is independant assortment of chromatids during meiosis which means that the amount of genetic material passed on is random. A "3/4 ghd 1/4 whippet" may have anywhere between 50% and zero whippet genes. Discussions of what fraction ghd should be allowed is therefore pointless.

Furthermore whippets and ghds share over 99.9% commonality geneticaly. The difference between a whippet and a ghd is likely the result of a very small number of genes. Obviously this means that the whippet can very quickly be bred out of the cross. ( since once chromatids are not selected in meiosis for the gamete, ie sperm or egg then those genes are lost forever)

The racing ghds and whippets do very similar jobs, the differences being that whippets run shorter distances, a sprint, and the majority of whippets are matched or handicapped on weight. If you remove the weight stipulation and race over the same distance convergant evolution of the breeds by selective breeding will produce types of whippet and ghd that appear identical. If you shortcut the selective breeding by using both breeds in a breeding program you will rapidly breed out those genes that are inferior. Ghds are better than whippets over the longer bends races. Any breeding program for bend racing in the no limit will breed out the whippet to produce genetic ghds and this can happen in as little a 3 generations.

Prior to 1926 whippets were the racing dog; Ghds coursed hares. There wasn't a size distinction between ghd and whippets in that the scratch whippets were like todays scratch racers, often in excess of 40lb while many of the great coursing ghds weighed under 50lb. Belle Vue ghd stadium opened in 1926 which allowed races to be run over a longer distance than the typical 200yd whippet race. The coursing ghd with it's superior stamina was superior in these longer races and ghd became the dog to race at these bend stadiums. The racing ghd of today is totaly different because of being selctively bred for racing than the old coursing types becoming a racing dog.

For me the terms whippet and ghd are less important than defining what the dogs are bred for.,that is raceing. If you want to race dogs over 300yds or whatever it shouldn't matter about the breeding - let the fastest dogs win.

Lurchers aren't race dogs and so racing them against each other proves nothing about the abilities of the dogs as lurchers. There will always be those who want to race purpose bred racing dogs against lurchers bred for their purpose. Anyone who thinks that victories in lurcher racing using purpose bred race dogs, whether they be ghds or non peds, has any merit is a fool in my eyes.

 

[GRAHAM PEM]

I was at the last BWRA AGM and it was said that people on k9 should make themselves known ... which I believe is right ...anyone can use any user name as long as other k9 members are aware of their identify ...so MONSIEUR DUPONT who are you , I am sure if people knew who they were talking too , you may get a bit more respect and this topic might not of resorted to name calling and maybe go on to a decent discussion about how some of our scr dogs are been breed...maybe also contribute to sorting the problem some people have with the way some members are breeding greyhound crossers .
I can understand where some scr racers may feel that the weight of some of the bigger no limits affects them racing their dogs...if you have say a no limit at 43lb and a no limit at 68lb there’s 25lb weigh diffrents ...I don't for one moment think this would make the heavy dog at any advantage in speed ...as a dog no matter what size either has it or hasn't got it ...but do think ( my own opinion ) it is putting the lighter dog at risk to injury by getting bumped or hit at knock off ...most of our racing classes are 3 , 4 or 5 lb differences IE 36lb 40lb - up to 20lb up to 25lb and so on...so why should there be a massive weigh differences in the no limit...wouldn’t the sensible thing to do is introduce another class

After listening to a lot of scr racers there are quite a few of unhappy people, there’s been talk of capping scr racers weights...looking into 4/5 generations of breeding to try to resolve the problem....I know many will say there is no problem "no limit" means "no limit" ...but to be honest if members of scr dogs are unhappy then YES there is a problem ...I honestly believe that the situation can be resolved in a proper manner , by organizations sitting down and holding a meeting with scr dog members and coming to a compromise without all this bad feeling ...this sport is on a up and let’s hope we can keep it that way

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Once again your avoiding answering my post, it's about the % of greyhound in some of the scratch dogs that are being bred.

In respect with what was said at the BWRA AGM, they don't run K9, the moderaters do. If you feel that my posts are rude or offensive then please complain to them.

At the end of the day, all I'm doing is voicing my opinion in a civil way, I realise that you are very clicky and you all pee in the same pot.

M D

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ill answer your post when u put up your real name. F . O .Y .W

 

[milly]

Talking about percentages or fractions ( of ghd in this case) is meaningless past the first cross whippet to ghd other than to indicate a particular dogs ancestory. It does not give any indication as to the amount of ghd or whippet derived genes, genetic material or  "blood" a particular offspring has. There is independant assortment of chromatids during meiosis which means that the amount of genetic material passed on is random. A "3/4 ghd 1/4 whippet" may have anywhere between 50% and zero whippet genes. Discussions of what fraction ghd should be allowed is therefore pointless.
Furthermore whippets and ghds share over 99.9% commonality geneticaly. The difference between a whippet and a ghd is likely the result of a very small number of genes. Obviously this means that the whippet can very quickly be bred out of the cross. ( since once chromatids are not selected in meiosis for the gamete, ie sperm or egg then those genes are lost forever)

The racing ghds and whippets do very similar jobs, the differences being that whippets run shorter distances, a sprint, and the majority of whippets are matched or handicapped on weight. If you remove the weight stipulation and race over the same distance convergant evolution of the breeds by selective breeding will produce types of whippet and ghd that appear identical. If you shortcut the selective breeding by using both breeds in a breeding program you will rapidly breed out those genes that are inferior. Ghds are better than whippets over the longer bends races. Any breeding program for bend racing in the no limit will breed out the whippet to produce genetic ghds and this can happen in as little a 3 generations.

Prior to 1926 whippets were the racing dog; Ghds coursed hares. There wasn't a size distinction between ghd and whippets in that the scratch whippets were like todays scratch racers, often in excess of 40lb while many of the great coursing ghds weighed under 50lb. Belle Vue ghd stadium opened in 1926 which allowed races to be run over a longer distance than the typical 200yd whippet race. The coursing ghd with it's superior stamina was superior in these longer races and ghd became the dog to race at these bend stadiums. The racing ghd of today is totaly different because of being selctively bred for racing than the old coursing types becoming a racing dog.

For me the terms whippet and ghd are less important than defining what the dogs are bred  for.,that is raceing. If you want to race dogs over 300yds or whatever it shouldn't matter about the breeding - let the fastest dogs win.

Lurchers aren't race dogs and so racing them against each other proves nothing about the abilities of the dogs as lurchers. There will always be those who want to race purpose bred racing dogs against lurchers bred for their purpose. Anyone who thinks that victories in lurcher racing using purpose bred race dogs, whether they be ghds or non peds, has any merit is a fool in my eyes.

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How would you describe someone who racers a collie x greyhound against purposely bred race dogs and beats them week in and week out?

Also in the 90s 80% of dogs racing at lurcher events was purposely bred for racing, and probably they were the wastage from someone's breeding program in the non ped racing scene :- " and in my eye's a grew is a lurcher.

 

[dazgail]

Talking about percentages or fractions ( of ghd in this case) is meaningless past the first cross whippet to ghd other than to indicate a particular dogs ancestory. It does not give any indication as to the amount of ghd or whippet derived genes, genetic material or  "blood" a particular offspring has. There is independant assortment of chromatids during meiosis which means that the amount of genetic material passed on is random. A "3/4 ghd 1/4 whippet" may have anywhere between 50% and zero whippet genes. Discussions of what fraction ghd should be allowed is therefore pointless.
Furthermore whippets and ghds share over 99.9% commonality geneticaly. The difference between a whippet and a ghd is likely the result of a very small number of genes. Obviously this means that the whippet can very quickly be bred out of the cross. ( since once chromatids are not selected in meiosis for the gamete, ie sperm or egg then those genes are lost forever)

The racing ghds and whippets do very similar jobs, the differences being that whippets run shorter distances, a sprint, and the majority of whippets are matched or handicapped on weight. If you remove the weight stipulation and race over the same distance convergant evolution of the breeds by selective breeding will produce types of whippet and ghd that appear identical. If you shortcut the selective breeding by using both breeds in a breeding program you will rapidly breed out those genes that are inferior. Ghds are better than whippets over the longer bends races. Any breeding program for bend racing in the no limit will breed out the whippet to produce genetic ghds and this can happen in as little a 3 generations.

Prior to 1926 whippets were the racing dog; Ghds coursed hares. There wasn't a size distinction between ghd and whippets in that the scratch whippets were like todays scratch racers, often in excess of 40lb while many of the great coursing ghds weighed under 50lb. Belle Vue ghd stadium opened in 1926 which allowed races to be run over a longer distance than the typical 200yd whippet race. The coursing ghd with it's superior stamina was superior in these longer races and ghd became the dog to race at these bend stadiums. The racing ghd of today is totaly different because of being selctively bred for racing than the old coursing types becoming a racing dog.

For me the terms whippet and ghd are less important than defining what the dogs are bred  for.,that is raceing. If you want to race dogs over 300yds or whatever it shouldn't matter about the breeding - let the fastest dogs win.

Lurchers aren't race dogs and so racing them against each other proves nothing about the abilities of the dogs as lurchers. There will always be those who want to race purpose bred racing dogs against lurchers bred for their purpose. Anyone who thinks that victories in lurcher racing using purpose bred race dogs, whether they be ghds or non peds, has any merit is a fool in my eyes.

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Does this person believe that the top non-peds are faster than the elite sprint greyhounds over short distance races ie 150 yards

 

[salvageman]

Thanks for your reply Mick, but could post a step by step equation of how you came to this result?M D

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everytime you go back to a pure greyhoud you reduce the whippet blood by 50%, eg:-first cross is 50% - 25% - 12.5% - 6.25%. mick

 

[johnnoble]

Ihave no problem to people posting under assumed names, just as long as they are not trying to cause trouble.[just trying to start an interesting debate]

In this case, what M D is saying makes sense.

The BWRA are trying to address this problem at the moment but i dont think they will succeed, the breeding of greyhounds with whippets as got out of hand and can not be reversed.

I am not bothered either way[good luck to them]probably would be bothered if i had a scratch dog.

Everybody has the right to an opinion.

 

[dazgail]

Ihave no problem to people posting under assumed names, just as long as they are not trying to cause trouble.[just trying to start an interesting debate] In this case, what  M D is saying makes sense.

The BWRA are trying to address this problem at the moment but i dont think they will succeed, the breeding of greyhounds with whippets as got out of hand and can not be reversed.

I am not bothered either way[good luck to them]

Everybody has the right to an opinion.

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Yep, everyone has a right to an opinion but when individuals use their opinions to dictate the running of a club, association or organisation without taking the other members opinions into consideration it only bodes for trouble.

 

[mutley]

the nnwrf have no probs with scratch dogs whatever the breeding

 

[milly]

the nnwrf have no probs with scratch dogs whatever the breeding

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I also have no problems with scratch dogs,but I think we have to draw the line with the amount of Greyhound blood we put into our breeding program.

This is not a personal attack on Graham,because I've made it clear to him my thoughts on the amount of Greyhound in his last litter ie..the aggro he may get.

I have personally bred a scratch dog that I can race on the straights as well as on the bends!!(I hope) Not all the NNWRF share your opinion Gary, because I for one only agree with half of your statement.

Just my opinion. Geoff

 

[mutley]

what is the LIMIT on NO LIMIT or does NO LIMIT not mean NO LIMIT :blink: JUST MY OPINION and i have never yet heared in any fed committee meeting anyone complain on breeding lines its upto people what size dogs they want in there kennels and dont beleive any committee can dictate the blood lines the breeder takes on like i said just my opinion and in no way an argument just a debate ey fletch

 

[mutley]

the fed was origonaly set up to cater for bigger dogs :- " i know where your coming from geof but would you not line a little sprint greyhound with sugar daddy if offered if u do ill have one

 

[BWRA MEMBER]

Think you all have nothing better to moan about, any dog any size should be welcomed , i have read on here loads of times that none ped whippet racing numbers have declined over the years.

Think the NNWRF have taken the right steps forward in introducing another class for the larger scr dogs

Ive always been a big supported of both orginiastions and at present the NNWRF are moving forward not backward like the BWRA

The scr lads always stuck together right or wrong when i raced big dogs , Mac Jimmy Gav they were the real scr lads

 

[milly]

what is the LIMIT  on NO LIMIT  or does NO LIMIT  not mean NO LIMIT :blink: JUST MY OPINION  and i have never yet heared in any fed committee meeting anyone complain on breeding lines its upto people what size dogs they want in there kennels and dont beleive any committee can dictate the blood lines the breeder takes on  like i said just my opinion   and in no way an argument just a debate ey fletch

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There is no limit, on no limits obviously :wacko:

Has the subject concerning breeding lines with scratch dogs ever been brought up at a fed committee meeting?

If you had posted this statement (quote) The NNWRF have no probs with scratch dogs whatever the breeding (unqouto) prior to our last committee meeting, then maybe it would have been brought up.

I'm not disputing the size or weight of dogs I've got a big dog myself!

But personally I don't think its right to keep putting greyhounds, generation after generation into a breeding program as this will saturate all the whippet blood so to speak. This is just my opinion.

ps. me thinks it will be brought up at the next committee meeting. Geoff

 

[BWRA MEMBER]

Whats sugar daddys breeding geoff

 

[rodders]

See where you're coming from Geoff,but would have thought that if any of the bitches out of Grahams litter prove good,then ideally a little un(whippet :lol: )will be put across it in the future to hopefully keep non peds going :thumbsup:

 

[mutley]

well said karen :thumbsup:fair comment maybe we will debate this at the meeting fletch debate not dictate

 

[milly]

the fed was origonaly set up to cater for bigger dogs  :- " i know where your coming from geof but would you not line a little sprint greyhound with sugar daddy if offered   if u do ill have one

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Been waiting for this question for weeks, I've got 2 sprint greyhound ready and waiting :thumbsup: and if and when I did, the offspring would be 3/4 greyhound 1/4 whippet, but I can assure you that I would not put a dog out of this breeding back to a greyhound, get my drift.

Geoff

 

[mutley]

get it fine :- " thats your choice

 

[milly]

well said karen  :thumbsup:fair comment  maybe we will debate this at the meeting fletch debate not dictate

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I never have let anyone dictate to me, ask Hazel :- "