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Woppit said:
i am sorry i wasnt serious, sorry if it caused offence.
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Strangely I was just wondering whether humans with Haemophilia should be allowed to breed as that is passed on , if I understand correctly . as a sex-linked probem via the X chromosome.

[SIZE=14pt]I AM NOT SERIOUSLY ADVOCATING THIS[/SIZE]

I know we control animals differently to how we control ourselves looking for different criteria in selecting a mate for our dogs than we do in selecting a mate for ourselves. But would any female on finding - when he dropped his boxers that there was only one - not have sex with him (whoever he is)?

Maybe everyone should consider who would make an ideal mate for oneself (JAX/ Debbie - this does NOT mean RUSS or PMH) rather than relying on the human condition of lust (whoops mean LURVE).
 
dawn said:
Woppit said:
i am sorry i wasnt serious, sorry if it caused offence.
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Strangely I was just wondering whether humans with Haemophilia should be allowed to breed as that is passed on , if I understand correctly . as a sex-linked probem via the X chromosome.

[SIZE=14pt]I AM NOT SERIOUSLY ADVOCATING THIS[/SIZE]

I know we control animals differently to how we control ourselves looking for different criteria in selecting a mate for our dogs than we do in selecting a mate for ourselves. But would any female on finding - when he dropped his boxers that there was only one - not have sex with him (whoever he is)?

Maybe everyone should consider who would make an ideal mate for oneself (JAX/ Debbie - this does NOT mean RUSS or PMH) rather than relying on the human condition of lust (whoops mean LURVE).

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what are not advocating? :wacko:
 
Woppit said:
I think responisble breeding and home-finding for the pups is the key point, along with responsible ownership once u have bought a dog, whether it be a CC winning pedigree or a heinz 57!!
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How can deliberately breeding a heinz 57 be a responsible course of action when rescue centres are full of them.

If your cocker is as good as you say (albeit the undescended testicle) and you want to keep his line in the future why would you want to breed him with a whippet
 
I might be wrong here :- " but dont peps in USA have to have blood tests before they start a family ( maybe it was a sci fi film Ive seen )

Dawn , if I was looking for an ideal mate it would be

Clive Owen :wub: :wub: o:)

Back on topic, , Ive bred from a bitch ( twice) with an umbilical hernia and NONE of her pups , or later prgeny have had hernies ( as far as I know )
 
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JAX said:
Clive Owen :wub:   :wub:   o:)
Back on topic, , Ive bred from a bitch ( twice) with an umbilical hernia and NONE of her pups , or later prgeny have had hernies ( as far as I know )

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Clive Owen isn't that him who played COMPO?

I'd never considered an umbilical hernia as a genetic problem - maybe someone can explain (simply please as I am blonde :D )
 
dawn said:
JAX said:
Clive Owen :wub:   :wub:   o:)
Back on topic, , Ive bred from a bitch ( twice) with an umbilical hernia and NONE of her pups , or later prgeny have had hernies ( as far as I know )

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Clive Owen isn't that him who played COMPO?

I'd never considered an umbilical hernia as a genetic problem - maybe someone can explain (simply please as I am blonde :D )

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Well, unfortunately being blonde like you too ;)

According to some of the posts, even if you have seen a pup born perfectly healthy, no signs of any kind of a hernia.................................

Have then seen an over zealous dam swinging said pup about & chewing furiously on umbilical cord whilst you have fought to try & free pup BUT in process have seen resulting hernia occur THERE IS STILL A GENETIC REASON WHY THIS HAS OCCURED & THIS PUP SHOULD NOT EVER BE BRED FROM. :eek:
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nina said:
Unfortunately when i have seen a pup born WITHOUT a hernia & then seen it OCCUR NO ONE is EVER gonna convince me otherwise.
When these dogs have then been bred on from & NEVER produced a hernia either  :- "

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Oh for heaven's sake!

I post a few links which might interest/educate some people and you want to fight!

Someone said they'd never considered it to be a genetic problem so I was putting up a bit of info which might have helped them understand. Sadly, it IS a genetic problem :( ... if your bitch once chewed one of your puppies then sorry, and that's a shame, but my posts on this forum are not for your personal benefit nina, so chill the heck out!
 
ILoveKettleChips said:
nina said:
Unfortunately when i have seen a pup born WITHOUT a hernia & then seen it OCCUR NO ONE is EVER gonna convince me otherwise.
When these dogs have then been bred on from & NEVER produced a hernia either  :- "

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Oh for heaven's sake!

I post a few links which might interest/educate some people and you want to fight!

Someone said they'd never considered it to be a genetic problem so I was putting up a bit of info which might have helped them understand. Sadly, it IS a genetic problem :( ... if your bitch once chewed one of your puppies then sorry, and that's a shame, but my posts on this forum are not for your personal benefit nina, so chill the heck out!

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well EXCUSE ME (w00t)

Who wants to fight :lol:

Listen i dont give a damn either way, was just sharing personal experience that i have had.

Carry on quoting your text book vet college quotes & if it helps someone ALL the good.

I'm certainly not out to fight anyone i'm too long in the tooth for all that crap quite honestly.

if you cant share a personal experience without someone jumping up & down, hey why bother. :thumbsup:
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IWLass said:
Woppit said:
Hypothetically, i dont see that his early life and smallness is a reason not to breed from him; why do you think it might be? you mean in case he was genetically predisposed to runtness or something?
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It could be an indicator that he is carrying a genetic weakness/failing - yes.

I am still struggling to understand WHY anyone would want to breed a dog that is not 100% healthy and sound.

What benefits can a genetically mutated dog bring to his offspring that could not be gained from another, genetically sound, dog? When you consider the risks that the mating poses - I can think of NO benefits to the litter that outweigh these risks.

I do not work or show dogs - so maybe there is something significant I am missing - but a background in genetics has taught me that abnormal charcteristics should be viewed with deep concern - as they may be the most obvious, but least significant, of the problems caused by a genetic mutation :unsure:

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WHY do tou think that cryptorchidism is a "mutation"? What exactly is you background in genetics?
 
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On the subject of hernias I think that the genetic component probably weakens the abdominal wall predisposing the pup to a hernia when the mother is rough. This would mean that while you wouldn't see the hernia when the pup was born, and while it might not develop if the mother was gentle, if the mother was rough and panicky it would appear.
 
Seraphina said:
WHY do tou think that cryptorchidism is a "mutation"?    What exactly is you background in genetics?
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An anatomic and genetic study of canine cryptorchidism.

Cox VS, Wallace LJ, Jessen CR.

Twelve cases of cryptorchidism were found in a colony of Minature Schnauzer purebred and crossbred dogs. At least nine affected dogs were derived from the same sire directly or indirectly. Of 12 affected dogs, five cases ... Degree of inbreeding was greater for bilateral cases than unilateral cases. High incidence of cryptorchidism in this colony provided good evidence for hereditary nature of the condition in the Miniature Schnauzer dog. Morphologic observations were suggestive of a multiple gene defect.

recent research on canine cryptorchidism
 
ilkc i read your links and they sound fine in theory.but explain this to me. i had a manchester terrier bitch who when she had pups would swing them round by their cords and chew furiously at them.sometimes i would be able to calm her down after shed had a pup or two and then shed be more gentle and these pups didnt have a hernia.this always happened also in my litters from other bitches and in other breeds so why did the ones who were treated roughly get hernias and the ones that werent not get them?also when the pups did get hernias id cure them myself and never needed to have one operated on.and when i showed other folk who had pups in other breeds born without hernias but the dam caused them they could cure them also.was it all just coincidence that the pups who got treated roughly got hernias and their litter mates who werent treated as roughly didnt?ive bred dogs for over 30 years(and i had a lot of dogs in my kennels too not just a few,ive bred champions and cc winners and overseas champs too and in more than one breed.) and this is my experience and that of other breeders i know.im not saying youre wrong( ive too much respect for anyone who has studied as long and as hard as a vet )im just saying maybe its multifactoral and theres cases where it isnt hereditary? :)
 
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like ive said before on another thread- just to be safe and avoid any problems- only breed from dogs that have a clear health record- however small and simple the health issue was/is.

thats a nice and simple way of looking at whether or not you should mate your bitch or stud your dog (plus only if you know how to breed- thought id add that too!)

i'll be quiet now...ssshhh :b :teehee:
 
kris said:
ilkc i read your links and they sound fine in theory.but explain this to me. i had a manchester terrier bitch who when she had pups would swing them round by their cords and chew furiously at them.sometimes i would be able to calm her down after shed had a pup or two and then shed be more gentle and these pups didnt have a hernia.this always happened also in my litters from other bitches and in other breeds so why did the ones who were treated roughly get hernias and the ones that werent not get them?also when the pups did get hernias id cure them myself and never needed to have one operated on.and when i showed other folk who had pups in other breeds born without hernias but the dam caused them they could cure them also.was it all just coincidence that the pups who got treated roughly got hernias and their litter mates who werent treated as roughly didnt?ive bred dogs for over 30 years(and i had a lot of dogs in my kennels too not just a few,ive bred champions and cc winners and overseas champs too and in more than one breed.) and this is my experience and that of other breeders i know.im not saying youre wrong( ive too much respect for anyone who has studied as long and as hard as a vet )im just saying maybe its multifactoral and theres cases where it isnt hereditary? :)

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I totally agree with this :thumbsup:

Its not about whose right & whose wrong BUT i think its absolutely correct that yes in some cases it is most definitely genetic when a pup is born & no over zealous treatment by the bitch is incurred but the pup has a hernia equally i think SOME hernia's can be caused by a bitch.

I think you have to be open minded. same thing as a dog that goes blind suddenly yes it could be a genetic fault but also could have been caused by an accidental blow or stroke or anything. Without proper tests being carried out & being 100% sure how do you know?

There are many things that ARE genetically carried & passed on BUT also many situations & accidents that also result in the same outcome & easy i guess to make a sweeping statement that it is always a genetic fault. :thumbsup:
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kris said:
ilkc i read your links and they sound fine in theory ... im just saying maybe its multifactoral and theres cases where it isnt hereditary? :)
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Absolutely - mutifactorial is the keyword, I think.

What I think (personal opinion here - I'm not a breeder, never have been or likely to be) is important when breeding is to try to keep in mind the principles of natural selection. That way your choice of breeding is always based on the soundness and vigour of the parentage, not just on individual traits (eg speed/conformation/resilience).

The relevance of the above point comes in when I say that although it might be difficult to specify a genetic predisposition to the rough mothering you describe, in the wild this bitch's litter would have a reduced chance of survival because she traumatised them at birth. OK, it's not genetics, it's not scientific, but common sense dictates that these lines would not survive as well in a natural environment because pup mortality would be higher.

Again, some might say that rough mothering on the part of the bitch is a behavioural or stress issue, but at the end of the day she's reducing the pup's robustness and ability to achieve (and likelihood of) survival.

As nina pointed out, sometimes things are accidents and flukes, but again, the wild environment has no sympathy for such things as accidents - it's dog eat dog for coyotes! :lol:
 
Seraphina said:
WHY do tou think that cryptorchidism is a "mutation"?    What exactly is you background in genetics?
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I have a Bsc in Genetics - and I say mutation, as the way that every cell in every living thing develops and works is coded for in the genetic code/DNA - if it is malformed, abscent or works incorrectly from birth, with no trauma to explain the condition, then it means that the genetic code is somehow faulty/mutated.

Genetic mutation can be spontaneous; happen with no apparent reason - or inherited; when a parent passed the mutation onto a child. Every creasture has two copies of each gene, so if one is faulty, the other often "covers up" the fault - when offspring are produced from parents with similar genetic makeup (relatives) then it is more likely that both copies of the gene will carry an inherited "fault" - hence the higher frequency of abnomalities within closely in-bred offspring.

The way in which genes are "put together" within the DNA of chromosomes means that often, more than one gene is affected by even a tiny mutation/change in the DNA; and its not possible to tell which genes are effected until they "don't work" properly
 
IWLass said:
Seraphina said:
WHY do tou think that cryptorchidism is a "mutation"?    What exactly is you background in genetics?
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I have a Bsc in Genetics - and I say mutation, as the way that every cell in every living thing develops and works is coded for in the genetic code/DNA - if it is malformed, abscent or works incorrectly from birth, with no trauma to explain the condition, then it means that the genetic code is somehow faulty/mutated.

Genetic mutation can be spontaneous; happen with no apparent reason - or inherited; when a parent passed the mutation onto a child. Every creasture has two copies of each gene, so if one is faulty, the other often "covers up" the fault - when offspring are produced from parents with similar genetic makeup (relatives) then it is more likely that both copies of the gene will carry an inherited "fault" - hence the higher frequency of abnomalities within closely in-bred offspring.

The way in which genes are "put together" within the DNA of chromosomes means that often, more than one gene is affected by even a tiny mutation/change in the DNA; and its not possible to tell which genes are effected until they "don't work" properly

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quite right :thumbsup: ...just what i was gonna say :p :lol:
 
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