Pedigree Dogs Exposed

[jayp]

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I know Ridgebacks were mentioned, i had one when i first came into dogs, yes she had a Dermoid Sinus discovered at 9 months of age. She had 3 major operations

She came from the TOP kennel in the country at the time. Their answer bring her back and we will swop her for another one !!!!!!!!

We all know what her fate would have been

I would have preferred a Ridgeless Ridgeback if it meant a healthy one

 

[wild whippies]

To allow these things to become action rather than words, I believe that the running of the KC should be put out to tender, they are after all a monopoly  :angry: .  Give it over to the RSPCA

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The RSPCA?? (w00t) :lol:

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Not necessarily the RSPCA, I was just using that as an example of a management who may have more sense in respect of the breed abnormalities. I have no experience of them but how come you think its so daft, just interested in finding out more about them

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No regulatory body is needed. As far as I'm concerned, this is where the problem lies. If all registrations were scrapped tomorrow and The Kennel Clubs' 22 million pound Mayfair estate went up in flames, I think dogs as a whole would benefit.

Prospective owners of a dog would go back to buying a dog fit for purpose and those dogs that have genetic defects, health problems, personality issues etc would be cast aside as a result.

The domestic dog, personality wise is virtually the same through most breeds (excluding those dogs not bred for companionship) As such the swaying factor in the choice of a dog (to a standard pet owner) is more based on it's appearance than it's functionality. Take the glory away that the Kennel Club awards and the whole thing would be a different story IMO.

 

[saraquele]

also as a purely innocent question , why do you think the KC  will turn its attention to lurchers ? after all it cant deal with its own pedigree breeds without worrying about the dogs that are not KC reg , after all it wont gain any money off the lurcher / non ped dogs so why bother with them ?  :huggles:

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I think it's cheaper to take on new breeds rather than fix the problems existing with current ones. Like you say the KC can't deal with it's own pedigree dogs or rather won't.

The Parson Russell Terrier has been a dog recently recognised by the kennel club (1990) so I would expect the lurcher to gain their attention if it's breeding produced dogs of a consistent phenotype. The worry is with the likes of hunting with dogs being banned, there will be strains of lurcher that will no longer be fit for purpose.

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i get you now :thumbsup:

true , if the KC can see another breed to add to there list to gain all the extra registration fees then i see where your coming from :thumbsup:

 

[littlenell]

I did think it strange that the vet representing the RSPCA, and who was showing such opposition to Crufts, is the very same vet that I met at Crufts a few years ago in his role as an up and coming TV vet. He didnt seem to mind being there then :blink:

 

[Fleesh]

The Victorians have a lot to answer for (again), before their "quaint idea" of showing off their little pet pooches and dabbling in eugenics a dog was typefied by the job it did and it's abilities in that particular field, I could not believe the GSD Judge when he REFUSED to back down on his point that the dog closer to the INTERPRETATION of the breed standard is a better specimen showing the capabilities of a GSD than the actual working strains that are the working strain because they can actually do the bloody job !!!

Prehaps they should change the name of the Rhodesian Ridgeback to just plain Rhodesian Hound and then take the ridge out of the breed standard, it is after all a physical fault to technically any dog with it should be marked down for being unsound in corformation (IMO)

 

[Holliepup]

Perhaps it’s about time we stopped support of those self-satisfied avaricious businessmen who run the KC? And croney breeders who are on the same band wagon - whether they see their reward as financial or ego stroking.

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Have you actually looked at the members of the General Committee of the KC? how many of them are 'business men'? :- "

I completely agree that there are serious concerns about some of these breeds, and breeding from dogs with hereditary diseases is despicable.

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That issue is probably not one of number, but of control? That aside, seems to me too many people with too much self interest all conspiring in their cosy little club. The facts are the facts however they were presented - and I for one did not think there was undue bias. It is rotten to the core

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This program as the KC feared was biased, it only locked onto two breeds, the Ridgeback and the Cavalier. I don't agree that healthy Ridgeback pups should be PTS, but found the sensational footage of the Cavaliers dreadful, what were their owners doing allowing their pets to suffer so much, and allowing the film makers to film them. That poor Boxer, what sort of life does that have?

I thought it was really being a against the careful breeding of the pedigree dog.

They went on about in breeding, the race horses we see today are the descendants of a handful of stallions, I think from the Godolphin Stud years ago, think about the in breeding that has gone on since then.

It was all done to be sensational and get viewers angry and boost the viewing figures! IMO.

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Racehorses have an ideal percentage of inbreeding to aim for and dont forget they above all other need to be fit for function

The percentage is 6% do you realise just how inbred pedigree dogs are?

They have lost 90% of genes in just 40 years,

This is the problem we are facing, the loss of these genes forever is PROVEN to be detrimental to the immune system and health

Do you as careful breeders know how inbred your dogs are?

Simple question but if the answer is no then how can you hope to improve the situation by continuing in the same way

There are lots of "careful" breeders out there, has it helped the GSD, the Bassett

etc

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Well said. Why is it that the only ones producing clear factual evidence are those who have concerns. The so called experts - however well meaning they are or think they are - fail to offer more than emotional responses or else overly protective ones. Why is no scientific evidence produced? The cancer that has infected this has run so deep that otherwise reasonable people cannot even recognise it, or do not wish to do so as it undermines their status and belief

 

[fewterer]

I completely agree that there are serious concerns about some of these breeds, and breeding from dogs with hereditary diseases is despicable.

What about from dogs that carry a problem without fully developing the disease, particularly one that can't easily be tested for? (as in the case of cardiomyopathy recently discussed on another thread.) If 1% of a population develops a complex genetic health condition, another 17% will be carriers. Do the number crunching; once an hereditary disease has gone beyond a certain point, it becomes impossible to eradicate from a closed gene pool.

 

[Janimal]

Perhaps it’s about time we stopped support of those self-satisfied avaricious businessmen who run the KC? And croney breeders who are on the same band wagon - whether they see their reward as financial or ego stroking.

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Have you actually looked at the members of the General Committee of the KC? how many of them are 'business men'? :- "

I completely agree that there are serious concerns about some of these breeds, and breeding from dogs with hereditary diseases is despicable.

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That issue is probably not one of number, but of control? That aside, seems to me too many people with too much self interest all conspiring in their cosy little club. The facts are the facts however they were presented - and I for one did not think there was undue bias. It is rotten to the core

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This program as the KC feared was biased, it only locked onto two breeds, the Ridgeback and the Cavalier. I don't agree that healthy Ridgeback pups should be PTS, but found the sensational footage of the Cavaliers dreadful, what were their owners doing allowing their pets to suffer so much, and allowing the film makers to film them. That poor Boxer, what sort of life does that have?

I thought it was really being a against the careful breeding of the pedigree dog.

They went on about in breeding, the race horses we see today are the descendants of a handful of stallions, I think from the Godolphin Stud years ago, think about the in breeding that has gone on since then.

It was all done to be sensational and get viewers angry and boost the viewing figures! IMO.

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If all the programme does is stop that bloody women using her Cavalier King Charles Spaniel at stud then it was worth it in my book. Those two clowns representing The Kennel Club need removing from office. Everyone gets to have their say, the breeders, the judges, the vets, the programme makers, the Kennel Club, members of K9, everyone except the dogs.

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Hear hear Jenny

watched it shocked and amazed and disgusted by some things on the programme

....those poor Cavaliers and boxers...and mastifs.

Stangely enough I have never liked breeds with large folds of skin...they seem so unnatural to me to start with... (w00t)

and that Pekinese that won Crufts after it had been operated on... (w00t) what a complete farce it makes the KC look... :b

 

[em21]

Well I have just watched the programme on BBC iplayer and was very upset by it. I have always believed that breeding for appearance is a little silly as that is not what is important to me in a breed. When I chose the whippet I did so as it's temperament is what I want in a breed. I wanted a loving companion, gentle, affectionate and friendly. Dudley is fabulous and if he had a 5th leg that was not detrement to his health then I couldn't give a monkeys?!!! But that's just me :b

I'm not saying for one minute that breeders of the breeds shown are bad people but to me... that argument about the rhodesian ridgeback... That was absolutely absurd!!! :rant: Think of the Poor greyhounds that get put down as they don't make it on the track? It's morally, ethically, completely wrong!

Right, i've had my rant now :rant: Will shut up now :lol:

Emma xxx

 

[em21]

I know Ridgebacks were mentioned, i had one when i first came into dogs, yes she had a Dermoid Sinus discovered at 9 months of age. She had 3 major operations
She came from the TOP kennel in the country at the time. Their answer bring her back and we will swop her for another one !!!!!!!!

We all know what her fate would have been

I would have preferred a Ridgeless Ridgeback if it meant a healthy one

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Exactly?? Why do people breed, knowing it will jepordise the dogs quality of life? These people can't really care for their animals? Surely?

Emma xxx

 

[em21]

I knew there were inherited problems with some breed like labradors and breathing problems with pugs etc but I didn't know that it was that bad for cavaliers and GSDs.  Those poor dogs. 
I have a registered pedigree whippet.  I chose the breed as it was one of the only breeds that we liked to not have any known inherited problems.

I also chose a KC registered litter as I thought that was the best way to go being a first time dog owner.

Now I am appaled at the KC after seeing this programme, their attitudes to the genetic problems and inbreeding are shocking.

The guy that said he doesn't beleive the science behind it and would inbreed his dogs, soon shut up when she asked him if he would mate with his daughter!  And then said that is different.  How?

The next time I get a pedigree dog I will be doing a lot of research into its breeding.

P.S.  I want a ridgeless ridgeback!

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Same here Madbella, when I researched afew breeds, whippets appeared fairly "sound" although it will go on no doubt in this lovely breed too. It's such a shame for the bloomin dogs... Do any of these people think of the poor dogs?? Our little companions that we all love so much, I too will do much more research next time I purchase a pooch.

Emma xxx

 

[bertha]

What I would like to know is if all these genes have been lost, what genes are they and how do we know they have been lost, were they there in the first place?

Can we all believe this? How can it be categorically stated that 40 percent have been lost? What are the 10 percent we have left?

I really would like to know.

 

[urchin]

Did anyone else have great big exclamation marks coming out of their ears when the kennel club kept saying that it would be counterproductive to legislate because it would drive breeders away?

And yet they told us that the majority of dog shows in this country are kc affiliated?

I would think that the glory hunters who would happily breed from diseased animals are exactly the kind of people who would change their practices if they were banned from the show ring. They clearly aren't in it to produce generations of happy healthy pups are they?

 

[wild whippies]

What I would like to know is if all these genes have been lost, what genes are they and how do we know they have been lost, were they there in the first place?
Can we all believe this? How can it be categorically stated that 40 percent have been lost? What are the 10 percent we have left?

I really would like to know.

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Firstly the genes that have been lost depend on the dog, comparison with the original breed type should demonstrate to an observer what exactly has been lost, e.g. length of back, height etc etc. A good example with pedigree whippets is the chocolate colour gene, it is evident in Greyhounds and non-ped whippets yet seem to be non-existant in the pedigree whippet. The other I can think of off the top of my head is the myostatin gene responsible for muscling as no pedigree whippets were carrying this gene in the UK when mass DNA testing was carried out for the Dog Genome project in regards to double muscling.

If 40% is lost then the remainder should be 60% not 10%, I presume this is a typing error.

 

[wild whippies]

I would think that the glory hunters who would happily breed from diseased animals are exactly the kind of people who would change their practices if they were banned from the show ring. They clearly aren't in it to produce generations of happy healthy pups are they?

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I totally agree with you. I recall the woman with the BIS cavalier was keen to emphasise the wonderful feeling you got from a win yet she didn't seem so happy to discuss her dog had a progressively fatal genetic disease. This kind of behaviour is purely selfish and does not demonstrate to me what a caring dog owner is.

 

[jayp]

What I would like to know is if all these genes have been lost, what genes are they and how do we know they have been lost, were they there in the first place?
Can we all believe this? How can it be categorically stated that 40 percent have been lost? What are the 10 percent we have left?

I really would like to know.

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Well lets say in the beginning whippets were part terrier which possessed the gene for sticky up ears and an italien with genes for rose ears, through breeding the 2 together but only selecting for rose ears eventually rose ears are all that can be produced as the gene for sticky up ears has been lost. Genes are passed in pairs one from each parent but they are randomly mixed in the offspring so now we have pups with one of each gene, simplisticly if we mate the 2 puppies we can have some with one of each, some with both genes for each ,these puppies do not now posess the gene for either sticky up or rose depending how the genes were distributed. If we them mate a pup with both pairs of genes for rose ears to another pup with both genes for rose ears and never introduce a dog with the genes for sticky up ears then eventually these genes have been lost, this you may think is a good thing but....... and its a big but..... all other genes are passed in the same way

for example MHC complex is responsible for the marking of cells as belonging to the body or a foreign invader such as a virus, there are many genes required to fight thousands of potential invaders, Inbreeding increases the chance that the genes passed from each parent are the same therefore the pup has only half the required MHC genes reducing its chances of fighting all disease. in immune conditions the body does not recognize its own cells and attacks them as if they were an invader

So we may have lost the gene for ears but along with it we may also have lost some of the genes needed for a healthy immune system leading to increased immune related diseases such as poliarthritis,colitis, and there are many more

In a random mating between unrelated dogs the likelyhood is that both parents will have a full set of MHC genes and so the offspring having half from each will also have a full set

I hope i have explained this properly

 

[em21]

I'm sure you are right jayp but i'm lost :lol: I find the whole genetics thing very confusing... Interesting though

Em xxx

 

[bertha]

Thank you.

 

[Juley]

I am really interested in finding out more about the genetics issue. Have my bedtime reading printed out, thanks Jan. I also firmly believe that a lot of our immune problems ( human as well) are getting worse by the use of so many chemicals, both in our food chain and being sprayed. I have personal experience of this having been exposed to too much chlorine after hydrotherapy. I was at one time so sensitive to chemicals just spraying perfume would bring me out in hives. I had a lot of help and advice and am much better following herbal and other treatment. Also by following a vile diet! ( It worked thou).

 

[~JO~]

I am really interested in finding out more about the genetics issue. Have my bedtime reading printed out, thanks Jan.  I also firmly believe that a lot of our immune problems ( human as well) are getting worse by the use of so many chemicals, both in our food chain and being sprayed.  I have personal experience of this having been exposed to too much chlorine after hydrotherapy. I was at one time so sensitive to chemicals just spraying perfume would bring me out in hives.  I had a lot of help and advice and am much better following herbal and other treatment.  Also by following a vile diet!  ( It worked thou).

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Along with this an important factor in my mind is the change in diet that most dogs are fed over the last 20/30 years - dry complete foods were not around before then either