Poor Blues And Blacks Again

[BeeJay]

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Someone on here registered a whippet pup as being seal rather than black. Can't remember if the dog had a brown nose. I seem to remember that seal's in IG's? have brown noses.

 

[Seraphina]

In Great Danes the colours are bred separately, and the blacks and blues must be good clear colour without any tinge of brown.  That is where I started my interest in inheritance of colour.  I believed that the "seal" comes from the dog being Kk, but then I saw brown tinge on dogs from few generations of blue black breeding, and as there was never a fawn pup popping up anywhere in the large litters, I am almost sure they must have been KK.  On another hand I saw these stunning deep clear blacks from fawn to black mating.  I also saw litter from seal bitch by blue dog and they were all blue and one good black.  Although bit of fawn tinge would come out seasonally, just as they started to molt.

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Isn't this where the Great Dane striptease thingy comes in again???

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Sorry but I am not sure what you mean???

What i meant was that a dogs from fawn to black breeding deffinitely carry fawn, but often are deep black with no fawn tinge. While some dogs from several generations of blue/black breeding are not. It is perfectly possible for blacks to still have the fawn gene even after many generations of blue to black breeding, but why would one which definitely has one did not come out "seal"? The best blacks come ot of the harlquin lines, or at least did then and in those times there were not such things as blue harlequin (which I have heard do exist nowadays), so i wonder if a dog is Dd and then Kk, that is combination weakens the strength of the pigment???

 

[dessie]

I think terminology is important actually, esp. where it relates to 'colour'

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Yes but you all have to be singing from the same hymn sheet!! For instance, my Ronan is registered as a silver brindle but I would call him a blue brindle. In fact, if I had bred and registered him I would only have called him a brindle with white trim.

My motto is "Keep it simple" otherwise you end up with 'white' Golden Retrievers!!!!! How stupid is that?? :blink:

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Yes but Dessie we need to know if it's a blue brindle or a brindle. The dilute bit is important the rest isn't.

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But as colour is immaterial, none of it actually matters!

But if you are mad keen to understand what colours you are likely to get or not get then whether it is dilute or has white trim is both as important as one another. Unless people register the dog as an adult (once the colour is 'set', because they can change so much) some colours are going to be completely wrong!! What if that person who bred what looked like a black/white registered it as that in the first couple of weeks of being born (and people do do that) and it ends up fawn/white, you cannot change the registration so in 50 years time people will look up and see that dog as a B/W and wonder how on earth you got that from that mating!!!

Then there is how do you describe brindles. Some schools of thought would say by the colour of the brindling so that would make ALL brindles either blue or black brindles, which is rubbish. You have different shades of backgrounds that alter the colour of the dog. My Ronan and Sophie should by the above premise both be blue brindles but are, in actual fact, totally different colours and I would call Ronan a blue brindle and Sophie a fawn brindle (albeit she has blue stripes) but if she had black stripes, she would STILL be a fawn brindle and not a black brindle!!!

The bit about the Great Dane striptease I was referring to is that as no-one really will know what colours genes are carried by looking at the coat colours you can end up with the unexpected just when you think you have it sussed ..........

Now, fawn-and-brindle people, we come to the colour of your masks and the colour of your stripes. Although they are always supposed to be black as you know, genetically speaking they don't have to be, which is why we have been referring to a striped overcoat, not a brindle one. Those masks and stripes could be blue, or even chocolate, sad to say. Let's play Punnett Square again, this time for several generations in sequence of BLACK and BLUE, otherwise known as DENSE and DILUTE, or D and d.

 

 

Unfortunately the diagram doesn't copy!!

 

 

This can happen in solid black and blue dogs, and blue breeders are happy when it does, BUT-IT CAN ALSO HAPPEN TO THE BLACK MASKS AND STRIPES ON FAWN AND BRINDLE DOGS, which is why their breeders must watch out for blacks in the pedigree even when they are many generations back, and find out what's behind them!

 

And then what happens if (horrors!) a solid blue is bred to a fawn with a black mask? Fawn and blue are both recessives, aren't they? So what on earth do we get??? We'll have to disrobe them to find out. First, fawn-with-black mask is a pattern, really. Fawn is fawn, OK, a recessive, a jumpsuit, and can't be covering anything up. But the black mask! Aha! That's black, and it could be covering up blue. (Masks aren't made in stripes, so forget that.) But let's say in this case it's not covering anything up-it's DD, not Dd. Now for the solid-coloured dog, the blue. That's a recessive too, like fawn It's dd. And this particular blue comes from a long line of blues, with not a single black to hide fawn or brindle underwear.

 

So what do we get? We seem to have two piles of recessive jumpsuits-ff for fawn and dd for blue. You'll never guess what Punnett produces. All resulting puppies in this case are SOLID BLACK!

 

[Seraphina]

But if you are mad keen to understand what colours you are likely to get or not get then whether it is dilute or has white trim is both as important as one another. Unless people register the dog as an adult (once the colour is 'set', because they can change so much) some colours are going to be completely wrong!! What if that person who bred what looked like a black/white registered it as that in the first couple of weeks of being born (and people do do that) and it ends up fawn/white, you cannot change the registration so in 50 years time people will look up and see that dog as a B/W and wonder how on earth you got that from that mating!!!

Experienced breeder will know the dogs in his pedigrees and know what recessive genes may be there. He also ought to know how the colours change, so if he gets something looking black from fawn to fawn (or brindle) he ought to know this is NOT black and wait. The colour is the best way of identification of dogs and therefore I think important.

 

Learning well the colour inheritance gives person basic understanding of inheritance of other traits. It gives us understanding how the dominant and recessive genes interact, and that there may be more than one gene involved producing certain trait. Therefore I would recommend anybody wanting to breed dogs to learn about the colour inheritance.

 

Many people make the mistake imaginining the different genes as little punnets of colours in a paint box, that is not so. ALL the clours in dogs are created by only two pigments black and yellow. The white is in fact absence of colour. All the different colour are created by interaction of the given genes. Basically it is a struggle between the yellow and black pigment, the different genes limit or spread the pigment, or the diluting genes dilute the given pigment. One gene, located on the "S" locus, is responsible for spreading the pigments over the body; if it misses a spot that stays colourless = white.

Other gene concentrated the black in a mask, other makes brindling stripes, yet other gene makes the actual hair into bands of black and yellow. Then the dilute gene works on whatever given colour and dilutes it.

 

The reason I do not like this "striptease" is that to me it is not at all surprising that blue to black masked fawn will produce blacks. She talks about it as if it was magic, something weird, when in fact it is all perfectly elegantly simple and understandable.

 

[dessie]

But if you are mad keen to understand what colours you are likely to get or not get then whether it is dilute or has white trim is both as important as one another. Unless people register the dog as an adult (once the colour is 'set', because they can change so much) some colours are going to be completely wrong!! What if that person who bred what looked like a black/white registered it as that in the first couple of weeks of being born (and people do do that) and it ends up fawn/white, you cannot change the registration so in 50 years time people will look up and see that dog as a B/W and wonder how on earth you got that from that mating!!!

Experienced breeder will know the dogs in his pedigrees and know what recessive genes may be there. He also ought to know how the colours change, so if he gets something looking black from fawn to fawn (or brindle) he ought to know this is NOT black and wait. The colour is the best way of identification of dogs and therefore I think important.

 

Learning well the colour inheritance gives person basic understanding of inheritance of other traits. It gives us understanding how the dominant and recessive genes interact, and that there may be more than one gene involved producing certain trait. Therefore I would recommend anybody wanting to breed dogs to learn about the colour inheritance.

 

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Trouble is, Seraphina, you are trying to preach to the converted here!!

 

You have to take the lowest common denominator or idiot factor into consideration. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people who register puppies with the Kennel Club are pet owners registering one litter who just LOVE fancy names and can't wait to register their puppies and off load them to their new home by, at the latest, 8 weeks of age. And most people couldn't give a fig about how genetics work.

 

Perfect example was Moriarte asking the colour of a dog from a relatively well known kennel. Most of us showies could take a good guess at what colour he was but I don't think any of us knew for certain, so if you get obscure dogs in pedigrees or ones with no affix you are on a hiding to nothing to know whether the colour was correct or not.

 

Something about statistics, statistics, damned lies springs to mind!!!

 

[beaker]

i love this thread

My solid black lad Oto was mated to a solid cream bitch with liver nose/pigment

the cream bitch was from a blue to fawn mating (not sure if the fawn was fully pigmented or not) and Oto was from a blue to fully pigmented brindle parti,

the resulting pups were all blacks, blue's and irish marked black, a few of the blacks had a few fawn hairs here and there , (deffinately fawn not white), these pups all had the most gloriously black coats no hints of brown and had fully black noses/pigment,

so on the surface they appeared black but could they possibly have been genetically something else? maybe incredibly heavy sabled or verry densly striped black brindle?

 

[BeeJay]

Cream is most interesting because it masks colours. Hence a cream when mated to a blue masked fawn produced blues and blue brindles.

 

[beaker]

Cream is most interesting because it masks colours.  Hence a cream when mated to a blue masked fawn produced blues and blue brindles.

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often wondered if there were different 'types' of cream, cream that masks a colour or pattern and cream that is almost double recessive (if there is such a thing) where they play less of a role in resulting prodgeny colours,than the other parent, dunno if that is possible :wacko:

 

[dessie]

often wondered if there were different 'types' of cream, cream that masks a colour or pattern and cream that is almost double recessive (if there is such a thing) where they play less of a role in resulting prodgeny colours,than the other parent, dunno if that is possible  :wacko:

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Well, I have come to the conclusion that ANYTHING is possible!!! Improbable maybe but nothing is impossible!

I have to say that I disagree with Seraphina about the Gt Dane striptease, I found the way it is written very tongue in cheek and light hearted and because it was extremely readable I probably learnt more from it. I think the lady should write novels, she would probably have best sellers!!! She took a very complex subject and simplified it in a way that even a numpty like me can understand! I can grasp the principles but I find the deep and meaningful bits just plain boring, all this big K and little k etc, etc, is not for me I'm afraid!! As I am never going to know what my dogs are, it all seems a bit irrelevant so I will just carry on and see what I get!

I'm still not convinced that you can't get blacks from two black-bred brindles though!!! I keep being told you can't but has anyone ever TRIED!!

I quite like the sound of a brindle with chocolate mask and stripes though ............

 

[Seraphina]

Trouble is, Seraphina, you are trying to preach to the converted here!!
You have to take the lowest common denominator or idiot factor into consideration.  Unfortunately, the vast majority of people who register puppies with the Kennel Club are pet owners registering one litter who just LOVE fancy names and can't wait to register their puppies and off load them to their new home by, at the latest, 8 weeks of age.  And most people couldn't give a fig about how genetics work. 

Perfect example was Moriarte asking the colour of a dog from a relatively well known kennel.  Most of us showies could take a good guess at what colour he was but I don't think any of us knew for certain, so if you get obscure dogs in pedigrees or ones with no affix you are on a hiding to nothing to know whether the colour was correct or not. 

Something about statistics, statistics, damned lies springs to mind!!!

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It is similar here, but the space provided for "colour & markings" is so small it is not always possible to describe the basics; blue brindle with mask, whiye trim just does not fit, in any case they often leave half out. What I would like to see is a system where say the amount of brindling would be described by a number between 1-5 (1=only few lines, 5 heavily brindled), and the same maybe with white 1= less than 10% white, 5 less than 10%pigment etc. Do you guys have any power to get your KCC do anything?

 

[BeeJay]

>I'm still not convinced that you can't get blacks from two black-bred brindles though!!! I keep being told you can't but has anyone ever TRIED!!

Haven't you ever tried Dessie? Surely with your love of both blacks and brindles you've done it.

 

[dessie]

>I'm still not convinced that you can't get blacks from two black-bred brindles though!!! I keep being told you can't but has anyone ever TRIED!!
Haven't you ever tried Dessie?  Surely with your love of both blacks and brindles you've done it.

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Up 'til now, unfortunately no I haven't. Wished I had now but isn't hindsight a wonderful thing. I am working on it though ................

 

[Seraphina]

I have to say that I disagree with Seraphina about the Gt Dane striptease, I found the way it is written very tongue in cheek and light hearted and because it was extremely readable I probably learnt more from it. 

The problem is she mixes all together, does not give you the understanding why it is the way she says. If you can understand the principal you would not believe you can get black from 2 brindles. Surelly Jackie Bourdin bred many full pigmented brindles together? As did many other people in Europe and the USA.

 

[Millie]

I have to say that I disagree with Seraphina about the Gt Dane striptease, I found the way it is written very tongue in cheek and light hearted and because it was extremely readable I probably learnt more from it. 

Surelly Jackie Bourdin bred many full pigmented brindles together? As did many other people in Europe and the USA.

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Yes thats true, but I don't think there are any solid blacks in the pedigrees.

I think what Dessie is thinking is, if she mates a Black to a brindle. Keeps puppy A (Brindle) then does another mating, again a Black to a brindle. Keeping puppy B (Brindle) . Then mates Pup A to Pup B. Why this can't produce black offspring. :- "

 

[Mark Roberts]

and irish marked black

you mean black and white lol

 

[dessie]

I have to say that I disagree with Seraphina about the Gt Dane striptease, I found the way it is written very tongue in cheek and light hearted and because it was extremely readable I probably learnt more from it. 

Surelly Jackie Bourdin bred many full pigmented brindles together? As did many other people in Europe and the USA.

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Yes thats true, but I don't think there are any solid blacks in the pedigrees.

I think what Dessie is thinking is, if she mates a Black to a brindle. Keeps puppy A (Brindle) then does another mating, again a Black to a brindle. Keeping puppy B (Brindle) . Then mates Pup A to Pup B. Why this can't produce black offspring. :- "

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[SIZE=14pt]YES!!!!!![/SIZE]

 

[Karen]

I have to say that I disagree with Seraphina about the Gt Dane striptease, I found the way it is written very tongue in cheek and light hearted and because it was extremely readable I probably learnt more from it. 

Surelly Jackie Bourdin bred many full pigmented brindles together? As did many other people in Europe and the USA.

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Yes thats true, but I don't think there are any solid blacks in the pedigrees.

I think what Dessie is thinking is, if she mates a Black to a brindle. Keeps puppy A (Brindle) then does another mating, again a Black to a brindle. Keeping puppy B (Brindle) . Then mates Pup A to Pup B. Why this can't produce black offspring. :- "

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[SIZE=14pt]YES!!!!!![/SIZE]

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Trouble is they may look black but would they BE black. Some Staffies are on the face of it black but you can just see where the brindling is so tight as to be 'almost' solid colour.

 

[dessie]

I have to say that I disagree with Seraphina about the Gt Dane striptease, I found the way it is written very tongue in cheek and light hearted and because it was extremely readable I probably learnt more from it. 

Surelly Jackie Bourdin bred many full pigmented brindles together? As did many other people in Europe and the USA.

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Yes thats true, but I don't think there are any solid blacks in the pedigrees.

I think what Dessie is thinking is, if she mates a Black to a brindle. Keeps puppy A (Brindle) then does another mating, again a Black to a brindle. Keeping puppy B (Brindle) . Then mates Pup A to Pup B. Why this can't produce black offspring. :- "

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[SIZE=14pt]YES!!!!!![/SIZE]

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Trouble is they may look black but would they BE black. Some Staffies are on the face of it black but you can just see where the brindling is so tight as to be 'almost' solid colour.

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Funnily enough, Wendy and I were talking about that really black brindle colour at the weekend, you see it in Greyhounds as well as Staffies but I have only ever seen one Whippet that colour

 

[Seraphina]

I think what Dessie is thinking is, if she mates a Black to a brindle. Keeps puppy A (Brindle) then does another mating, again a Black to a brindle. Keeping puppy B (Brindle) . Then mates Pup A to Pup B. Why this can't produce black offspring. whistling.gif original.gif*

Because brindle with one parent (or both parents) black is genetically exactly the same as brindle from brindle to brindle mating. The black is dominant gene, epistatic to all others. That means that if a dog has just one black gene (the capital K) it will be always black. So if you get brindles from black breeding they do not have this black gene and therefore can never pass black gene to their pup. Blacks from brindle to black mating will however have one gene black and one brindle, so two black dogs carying brindle can produce brindle pups.

Caroline, if you do not like to substitute the genes by letters, try to work out your dog's genetic make up by using the words, but use capital letters for the dominant gene. The only way it will become clear to you if you understand how the several pairs of gene of the different loci interact, and then the dominance of the genes on each locus.

 

[BeeJay]

>So if you get brindles from black breeding they do not have this black gene and therefore can never pass black gene to their pup.

That is the pertinent sentence IMO.