Poor Blues And Blacks Again

[doris]

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how confusing :wacko:

interesting though :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

Yes, that is sabling. Pups are born dark and then fade out, it is almost as if the number of black hair stays the same but as the dog grows and his skin expannds only new light hair grows. If you look carefully there is few dark hair in the light coat. I have seen it in justa bout every borzoi litter. Here is my Seraphina as a baby and adult:

 

[dessie]

But you can see that the pup in the photo is not black & white, I bet if the hair had been rubbed the wrong way you would have seen the fawn underneath.

 

[chelynnah]

But you can see that the pup in the photo is not black & white, I bet if the hair had been rubbed the wrong way you would have seen the fawn underneath.

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The second you can see other colour in, but the first one was all black and white.

here's a better view of it.

 

[~elizabeth~]

You get the same effect in dogs that are genetically black, but usually in instances where one parent or grandparent was non-black suggesting it may be more likely in dogs that are heterozygous for black (Kk).

This is one of Gelert's sister's pups (so grandparents were black/red brindle, blue and whatever Ousebank Free to Follow was?) One pup in the litter wasn't a full, glossy black but had signs of fawn;

(Sorry it's not very clear, but the puppy on the right was quite a noticably different colour from the others).

I'm guessing it grew up to be what is sometimes described as seal:

You sometimes get a similar thing in other black animals that are heterozygous for black, where wild patterning shows through the black (e.g. chevron markings in ducks; spots or tabby markings in cat species etc); oddly I've never seen brindling show through in this way, only the sabling which seems to keep to the areas you'd expect to find it. I suspect it's another pigment switching thing or incomplete epistasis. :unsure: I think these anomolies are just more proof that some of the processes for switching black pigment on and off aren't fully understood yet.

 

[dessie]

Seal!! :lol: Sorry, makes me laugh when I hear these fancy colour names!!! It is what I would call a 'not very good' black and probably not a true black at all. I would guess that these colour dogs are actually heavily sabled fawns. Wouldn't want one personally!!!

 

[~elizabeth~]

Isn't colour irrelevant in whippets :- "

I have no doubt it is genetically black ( but probably Kk). I doubt there are many fawns in his ped actually, so I think it's unlikely to be sabled fawn (any info on Ousebank free to follow, I can't find his colour anywhere? :unsure: )

I think the fact that fancy colours occur is because there is such are such complex interactions of sabling, brindling, dilution etc within whippet colour genetics.

I quite like this colour actually. :- " :b Probably the only way to get dense, glossy blacks is to try to achieve homozyosity (KK) by breeding only with other blacks and blues, but then there is another thread elsewhere about the pitfalls of this approach. Difficult :wacko:

 

[Zephyr]

Seal!!   :lol:     Sorry, makes me laugh when I hear these fancy colour names!!!  It is what I would call a  'not very good' black and probably not a true black at all.  I would guess that these colour dogs are actually heavily sabled fawns.  Wouldn't want one personally!!!

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I saw a whippet like this on Saturday and thought it looked beautiful, like a rich very dark chocolate - very striking. :thumbsup: :wub:

 

[dessie]

Isn't colour irrelevant in whippets  :- "
I have no doubt it is genetically black ( but probably Kk). I doubt there are many fawns in his ped actually, so I think it's unlikely to be sabled fawn (any info on Ousebank free to follow, I can't find his colour anywhere? :unsure: )

I think the fact that fancy colours occur is because there is such are such complex interactions of sabling, brindling, dilution etc within whippet colour genetics.

I quite like this colour actually.  :- " :b   Probably the only way to get dense, glossy blacks is to try to achieve homozyosity (KK) by breeding only with other blacks and blues, but then there is another thread elsewhere about the pitfalls of this approach. Difficult  :wacko:

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Don't know for certain but I would think that Ousebank Free to Follow would be a fawn.

Colour is irrelevant but it doesn't mean to say that you cannot prefer one colour to another and not want to keep one that doesn't ring your bell!! And just because there is a complexity in markings doesn't mean to say you have to give them fancy names!! Smacks of Americanism to me!!!

I disagree about only breeding good true blacks from blacks/blues only. Both my good true blacks are brindle/black bred, the same as Guy/ Bean and Tamara's blacks etc.

 

[Karen]

I think Free to Follow was Fawn, or was it Caramel :- "

 

[dessie]

I think Free to Follow was Fawn, or was it Caramel :- "

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:lol: :lol:

 

[~elizabeth~]

And just because there is a complexity in markings doesn't mean to say you have to give them fancy names!!  Smacks of Americanism to me!!!

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I think terminology is important actually, esp. where it relates to 'colour' as this is a touchy issue at the best of times :- " I once saw a brownish black whippet described as 'chocolate', with some comments about this colour not existing in whippets, and all that that implies. Let's not go there shall we? :sweating:

I didn't say I thought you couldn't get nice blacks from crosses with brindles or fawns, but if you really want to avoid ever having an occasional ones with this 'seal' colour, this would probably be the best strategy for avoiding it.

 

[dessie]

I think terminology is important actually, esp. where it relates to 'colour'

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Yes but you all have to be singing from the same hymn sheet!! For instance, my Ronan is registered as a silver brindle but I would call him a blue brindle. In fact, if I had bred and registered him I would only have called him a brindle with white trim.

My motto is "Keep it simple" otherwise you end up with 'white' Golden Retrievers!!!!! How stupid is that?? :blink:

 

[~elizabeth~]

Yes but you all have to be singing from the same hymn sheet!! 

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Agree entirely - I just don't know what the official term for what the brownish colour is though :wacko: :lol:

 

[~elizabeth~]

An the reason I don't know is, having checked the Registration Colour Code, is that they just don't include it (despite having 20 different ones for all the variations of fawn-type colours :wacko: )

 

[doris]

An the reason I don't know is, having checked the Registration  Colour Code, is that they just don't include it (despite having 20 different ones for all the variations of fawn-type colours  :wacko:   )

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what and where is the registration colour code? :wacko:

edited to say 'please' :- "

 

[dessie]

An the reason I don't know is, having checked the Registration  Colour Code, is that they just don't include it (despite having 20 different ones for all the variations of fawn-type colours  :wacko:   )

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Precisely, because that stupid list of colours is only made up from the fancy names that breeders choose to put on their registration forms!!! As soon as they have a few being registered of a certain 'shade', the KC add it to the list.

There is an argument going on at present with English Springers because they basically only come in two colours, liver & white or black & white, both can also have tan markings (making them tricolours) but someone tried to register a litter as brown & white. What do the KC do?? Instead of sending the form back saying this is incorrect or amending the colour to read 'liver & white' they register the puppies with the colour 'non-standard'. What nonsense and this is in a breed that is limited to a maximum of three (or four if you want to get very technical) colour variations.

Goodness knows where it will end with our breed that has in the breed standard for colour 'any colour or mixture of colours'. It opens up a Pandora's box for all sorts of nonsensical colours that people wish to think up.

 

[Seraphina]

In Great Danes the colours are bred separately, and the blacks and blues must be good clear colour without any tinge of brown. That is where I started my interest in inheritance of colour. I believed that the "seal" comes from the dog being Kk, but then I saw brown tinge on dogs from few generations of blue black breeding, and as there was never a fawn pup popping up anywhere in the large litters, I am almost sure they must have been KK. On another hand I saw these stunning deep clear blacks from fawn to black mating. I also saw litter from seal bitch by blue dog and they were all blue and one good black. Although bit of fawn tinge would come out seasonally, just as they started to molt.

I would like to take a big magnifying glass and look carefully at those seemingly black pups. I am sure I would find some signs of fawn somewhere.

I would like the code for colour to be based on the genetics. Whippets should be described by their basic colour, which is either fawn or black, then markings = mask and or brindling, pigment full or blue dilute, and last distribution of colour = white marking.

As the shade of fawn keeps changing, at first often dramatically, but later seasonally, I do not consider the shade of fawn of particular importance. To me it is more important to describe a dog as brindle even if there is only one little stripe, because it means that genetically he is brindle and it is very likely that he will produce brindle pups, than to worry about if the fawn is peach fawn or apricot fawn.

 

[dessie]

In Great Danes the colours are bred separately, and the blacks and blues must be good clear colour without any tinge of brown.  That is where I started my interest in inheritance of colour.  I believed that the "seal" comes from the dog being Kk, but then I saw brown tinge on dogs from few generations of blue black breeding, and as there was never a fawn pup popping up anywhere in the large litters, I am almost sure they must have been KK.  On another hand I saw these stunning deep clear blacks from fawn to black mating.  I also saw litter from seal bitch by blue dog and they were all blue and one good black.  Although bit of fawn tinge would come out seasonally, just as they started to molt.

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Isn't this where the Great Dane striptease thingy comes in again???

 

[BeeJay]

I think terminology is important actually, esp. where it relates to 'colour'

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Yes but you all have to be singing from the same hymn sheet!! For instance, my Ronan is registered as a silver brindle but I would call him a blue brindle. In fact, if I had bred and registered him I would only have called him a brindle with white trim.

My motto is "Keep it simple" otherwise you end up with 'white' Golden Retrievers!!!!! How stupid is that?? :blink:

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Yes but Dessie we need to know if it's a blue brindle or a brindle. The dilute bit is important the rest isn't.