Racing/lure coursing

[telstar]

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I still can't understand why racers and lure coursers want to show at crufts, show dogs are there because they are pleasing to the judges eye from going to shows and winning, I wouldn't want mine in a class that would be seen as not being good enough for the main ring, it would be like entering the waggiest tail competition,racing is where my whippets excel not showing so I wouldn't even bother to let them treat mine as 'not good enough to be proper show dogs' 
The show dogs deserve to be there as they put in the shows we deserve to be at the racing championships because we put in the racing :thumbsup:

Sorry to racers or showers if any of my oppinions offend :huggles:

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:thumbsup:

 

[Joanna]

The most insulting remarks about race dogs have come in the form of 'self derogatory' remarks by the race dog owners themselves - ie things they 'think' we show people say about their dogs and they've said themselves tongue in cheek.

I don't claim or believe showers think these things Wendy, I believe that they are amongst many of the faults carried within the racing lines. I don't think it would be unfair to say that the race breeders DO NOT consider the breed standard first and foremost when planning a litter. Speed is the most important component and obviously breeding a champion on the track the aim. The ears, tail , head, hocks, spine, feet, jaw etc are secondary if a consideration at all. If you breed a fine looking dog, it is surely a bonus? The comments I made are from my own observation, and I have perfectly good eye-sight 8) .

It is entirely obvious why you are a moderator on this board as you are clearly balanced and intelligent in your observations without getting emotional about an issue. Detachment and seeing things without the benefit of rose-tinted specatacles would be a revelation in certain circmstances. Going back to the original issue raised, Crufts is the most influential and famous dog show in the world.PERIOD.

Why would the kennel club allow a single group of dogs to enter who had not reached the required standard? To my mind, that is the bottom line. We expect to see the creme de la creme at that show..............

 

[aslan]

Yes Yes Yes to many points of view on this thread BUT

the racing/LC class is not for dogs who have excelled at their craft - how could a show judge possibly judge that? or another suitably qualified person for that matter? they would have to race or course to find out the winner!

The class is for dogs of that persuasion who also fall within the breed standard to be judged against that breed standard. They are NOT being judged on their ABILITY to race or course - they just have to BE a racer or courser. It is irrelevant in the show ring how good they are as a racer or courser.

Just like if a show dog goes to race - it is irrelevant how good he is as a show dog he is competing in a different field.

The extreme example - a dog who goes racing 'every weekend' but never wins but he is in race condition and he loves doing it - he is a nice stamp of a whippet according to the standard - he could win this class. AND there should be nothing wrong with that. The Racers should not be annoyed that they have been beaten by a dog who can't beat them on the track - because they are COMPETING IN A DIFFERENT KIND OF COMPETITION.

I don't think the showies are afraid of anything. I think on the whole they would LOVE to see more racing/LC whippets enter this class. Personally I think it would be fantastic if a racer or lure courser came out and won a Crufts challenge. I think it could go a long way to healing the divide. And, mind you, the way I see the divide is not so much between the dogs but between the people. I am one of those people who stubbornly cling to the idea of a multi-purpose whippet (even though I don't actively seek muti-purpose with my own). I fully believe that a racing/coursing whippet could conform to the standard and be successful on the track/in the field.

Sorry showies, but I think you need to let go of the idea that the racing dog should qualify for Crufts in a normal showing class. If you must have them qualify at a show then I think the racing/LC class should be offered as a qualifying class at normal shows. I think that would help. And judges should be constantly reminded that they are to take into consideration that the dog is in race condition, and that when judging their winner against the others for the CC that their 'thinness' should not be a disadvantage.

Just an aside ... I have a bitch who is in no means in race condition or race hardened (I don't race my dogs) but she is very well muscled and carries a lot less weight than many of her show competitors. She has often been 'criticised' (not unkindly, I might add) by my friends as being too thin, needing more weight. Yet she is a three time Best in Show winner (and a consistent BOB/BIG winner) and she has won those major awards in this 'thinner than the average show whippet' condition. What does this tell me? That a number of judges here appreciate a toned and muscled whippet who is not carrying excess weight. One of my friends the other day even conceded that perhaps she has too much weight on her dogs and they should take a leaf out of Aime's book.

 

[Strike Whippets]

I personally think it would be nice for judges to go over the different types of Whippet .........as I said earlier the gun dogs, blood hounds etc .....ALL have classes that they qualify for on ability .......WHY can't the racing and working Whippets have the same ??? ......

I don't think it would be unfair to say that the race breeders DO NOT consider the breed standard first and foremost when planning a litter. Speed is the most important component and obviously breeding a champion on the track the aim. The ears, tail , head, hocks, spine, feet, jaw etc are secondary if a consideration at all.

I find this VERY insulting as will other breeders .........Just to clear up this myth that us race breeders just breed for speed ........Hmm well speed is taken into account, but many of us take in ALL aspects of the dog ie feet, shoulder placement, construction, hocks etc ......a badly put together dog wouldn't be able to run correctly let alone fast .......but of course this is JMHO !!!!

 

[Mark Roberts]

there is a judge at this years Northern counties whippet champ show, who both races and shows her whippets, maybe you should all put your money where your mouths are and give her an entry

Well had it not been the same day as the Racing Champs I would of been there (as you know)

I don't think it would be unfair to say that the race breeders DO NOT consider the breed standard first and foremost when planning a litter. Speed is the most important component and obviously breeding a champion on the track the aim. The ears, tail , head, hocks, spine, feet, jaw etc are secondary if a consideration at all.

Sorry Joanna but we look at a lot of aspects of a dog we intend to use at stud, Yes speed is an important part, I wouldn't use a slow club dog bred from slow lines.

But I have to look at and live with my dogs 7 days a week I only race for 3 hours on a Sunday so I want a good looking well put together dog with a very sound bidable temprement.

Aslan you've made some very good valid points again (as always) and I think as you are looking in as an outsider on this argument (so to speak and thats not meant in a derogatory way) I think your able to give a more balanced view than those of us that are directly affected by it.

if the rules are that i can enter mo in the way Angela ect have been told then if i was in with a show dog from our club that we beat at racing week in week out and it beat us in the ring then as ive already stated i'd shake the judges hjand and thank them (Didnt see many thank the judge as they left the ring after the splits saturday) and I would also congratulate the dog s owner that beat me.

just as id expect a show bred owner to do at racing if I beat them.

for us racers I think I can saftly say showing at crufts would be about taking part not winning were not interested in getting BOB or BIS it would just be nice to be included bu our governing body (the KC ) who all our dogs are registered with so how about the racing class being for genuine racing dogs and it being just a class no CC's no going on to BOB .

 

[Joanna]

Sorry Joanna but we look at a lot of aspects of a dog we intend to use at stud, Yes speed is an important part, I wouldn't use a slow club dog bred from slow lines.But I have to look at and live with my dogs 7 days a week I only race for 3 hours on a Sunday so I want a good looking well put together dog with a very sound bidable temprement.

I mentioned speed as being the first consideration, and other aspects as secondary. I didn't say they were unimportant. Racing breeders are trying to get a winner on the track, not in the ring( And let's not forget that many cryptorchid dogs are used at stud in racing, a major fault and disqualifier). If that wasn't the case, why are people clamouring to use WCRCH stud dogs, and not the also rans who may have nice ears? I am only debating a point as I see it though, and of course I know you won't be offended as you are a friend :huggles: as well as being a breeder for many years :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

The ears, tail , head, hocks, spine, feet, jaw etc are secondary if a consideration at all.

what about this bit if a condideration at all?

 

[Joanna]

The ears, tail , head, hocks, spine, feet, jaw etc are secondary if a consideration at all.

what about this bit if a condideration at all?

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For some, the fact the dog has a curly tail may not be a consideration at all.......It would be if you were breeding a dog to show though :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

Now were going of topic again but to slightly digrees, whippet were devised to work/race curly tails dont stop that, why did you buy a pup from racing lines where RCh had been used? cos you wanted a faster pup!

 

[Joanna]

Now were going of topic again but to slightly digrees, whippet were devised to work/race curly tails dont stop that, why did you buy a pup from racing lines where RCh had been used? cos you wanted a faster pup!

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Absolutely! That is my point, but I wouldn't dream of putting him in a ring as he isn't good enough!

 

[TC]

Okay Ladies and Gents, I have finally received an answer. I am more than willing to divulge the name of the person (in case you want to write for clarification) who has given me the information that we have to eagerly awaited, although this will have to be by PM as I don't think it's right to put it on a forum such as this. Suffice to say, they are more than qualified as an officer of the KC's Press Department, and more specifically Crufts Press Officer :thumbsup:

"All dogs must achieve qualification through the normal process to compete at Crufts. They will then require further qualification to enter the Special Open Racing or Lure Coursing (Greyhounds and Whippets only) Class"

I hope this has cleared things up for everyone. I just hope the thread doesn't degenerate now

 

[Joanna]

Thanks Tracy.

Here is my curly tailed racer...................I love him to pieces though :wub:

 

[TC]

Thanks Tracy.Here is my curly tailed racer...................I love him to pieces though :wub:

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No worries Joanna :thumbsup:

He looks lovable :wub:

 

[Joanna]

Actually, having that definitive answer means there is no longer any need for a debate as all dogs WILL be on a level playing field. If a racing bred dog is good enough, they will appear in the ring through merit and not the back door. It will be interesting to see the group next year, and I wish any-one who is going to go down that route the very best of luck. :luck:

 

[TC]

Actually, having that definitive answer means there is no longer any need for a debate as all dogs WILL be on a level playing field. If a racing bred dog is good enough, they will appear in the ring through merit and not the back door. It will be interesting to see the group next year, and I wish any-one who is going to go down that route the very best of luck. :luck:

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:thumbsup:

 

[dessie]

Okay Ladies and Gents, I have finally received an answer. I am more than willing to divulge the name of the person (in case you want to write for clarification) who has given me the information that we have to eagerly awaited, although this will have to be by PM as I don't think it's right to put it on a forum such as this. Suffice to say, they are more than qualified as an officer of the KC's Press Department, and more specifically Crufts Press Officer  :thumbsup:
"All dogs must achieve qualification through the normal process to compete at Crufts. They will then require further qualification to enter the Special Open Racing or Lure Coursing (Greyhounds and Whippets only) Class"

I hope this has cleared things up for everyone. I just hope the thread doesn't degenerate now 

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I think this is what I, Jo, Jenny and other regular exhibitors have already stated actually.

 

[TC]

Okay Ladies and Gents, I have finally received an answer. I am more than willing to divulge the name of the person (in case you want to write for clarification) who has given me the information that we have to eagerly awaited, although this will have to be by PM as I don't think it's right to put it on a forum such as this. Suffice to say, they are more than qualified as an officer of the KC's Press Department, and more specifically Crufts Press Officer  :thumbsup:
"All dogs must achieve qualification through the normal process to compete at Crufts. They will then require further qualification to enter the Special Open Racing or Lure Coursing (Greyhounds and Whippets only) Class"

I hope this has cleared things up for everyone. I just hope the thread doesn't degenerate now 

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I think this is what I, Jo, Jenny and other regular exhibitors have already stated actually.

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Yes Caroline, as had I, but as I'm sure you're aware, it seemed there was still much doubt. That is why clarification was sought from the KC :thumbsup:

 

[~JO~]

Well there we go.. at least we all know now and it's cleared up. I was sure it was just a class qualification on top of the 'normal' show qualification.

Thanks Tracy for contacting them and getting the definitive answer :thumbsup:

 

[BeeJay]

Thanks for going to the trouble to find out Tracy. I've never shown at crufts and have qualified in case anyone thinks otherwise. :lol:

I too have been told by experienced show folks that you don't need to qualify in the normal way. As I know several people have done this I wonder how many other dogs are shown at Crufts who haven't actually met the qualifying standard (all breeds not just Whippets). Due to entry numbers maybe it's too difficult for the KC to 'police' I guess that it's down to other exhibitors to complain if they know that another dog hasn't qualified.

Before this topic was brought up I was convinced that you didn't need to qualify in the normal way because I'd been told it by so many experienced show folks. Because of it I actually read the Crufts Schedule properly and found out that it wasn't so and now you've confirmed that Tracy. :thumbsup: :huggles:

 

[Mark Roberts]

I think this is what I, Jo, Jenny and other regular exhibitors have already stated actually.

Yes but others who also showe regularly said differant!.

obviously there has been a breakdown in communications over the years regarding what is a qualification to enter the class.

Lets hope before 2008 it will be sorted out and made VERY clear on the show scedule exactly what the qualifying criteria is so theres no confusion?.