Racing/lure coursing

[dessie]

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I too have been told by experienced show folks that you don't need to qualify in the normal way.  As I know several people have done this I wonder how many other dogs are shown at Crufts who haven't actually met the qualifying standard (all breeds not just Whippets).  Due to entry numbers maybe it's too difficult for the KC to 'police' I guess that it's down to other exhibitors to complain if they know that another dog hasn't qualified. 

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Obviously some do slip through the net and you would have to put your £35.00 down to complain if you knew for certain someone had entered unqualified but I think the KC would pick up an error themselves on a dog awarded a CC ............ wasn't an OES disqualified from its BOB win a couple of years ago on a 'technicality'.

When the foreign dogs were first allowed to compete there was some hooha over a Whippet winning either a CC or RCC that had entered the wrong class but the KC actually allowed the dog to keep the award because it was a foreign dog and the owners, I believe, had been misinformed so were given the benefit of the doubt. Now that the foreigners are regularly competing I don't think that would be allowed to happen now.

 

[TC]

I think this is what I, Jo, Jenny and other regular exhibitors have already stated actually.

Yes but others who also showe regularly said differant!.

obviously there has been a breakdown in communications over the years regarding what is a qualification to enter the class.

Lets hope before 2008 it will be sorted out and made VERY clear on the show scedule exactly what the qualifying criteria is so theres no confusion?.

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I think it is Mark. The schedule clearly lay out the qualification details, and then it is up to the individual exhibitor to decide which class to enter their dogs in by reading the Class Definitions.

 

[dessie]

I think this is what I, Jo, Jenny and other regular exhibitors have already stated actually.

Yes but others who also showe regularly said differant!.

obviously there has been a breakdown in communications over the years regarding what is a qualification to enter the class.

Lets hope before 2008 it will be sorted out and made VERY clear on the show scedule exactly what the qualifying criteria is so theres no confusion?.

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It already is, if you care to read the schedule properly. And it is not 'qualification' to enter a class it is eligibility ............. subtle difference. Qualification is gaining certain awards at shows for the right to enter Crufts. And it is all written quite clearly in the schedule.

 

[Mark Roberts]

OK so it looks like you should have to qualify in the normal way + they should have raced ect.

So back to my original question (which seems such a long time ago now)

What should the dogs that are compeating in the Racing & LC class have done Racing & LC wise to be able to qualify and shoulnt the Kc/steward run some kind of check to make sure that they realy do deserve to be in the racing/LC class and are not just pot hunters looking for an easyer class (I know many of the dogs that were there this year deserved to be but I know of the 2 I mentioned to IMO didnt deserve to be in the Racing/LC class)

Come on what should a dog have to have done race/LC wise to deem it to be a genuine entrant in the racing/LC class?.

 

[BeeJay]

Yep Dessie. I think that if a dog won a class and was wrongly entered then it would be picked up on retrospectively.

Personally I think that it's a shame that as the WCRA is affiliated to the Whippet Club and thus the KC that it's a shame that the WCRA awards (WCRCh and VC) aren't recognised by the KC. Although there are only 4 champs held each year and 2 chances for a veteran to get it's VC.

Then if those qualifications were recognised ie the dogs given a stud book number they would be qualified for Crufts and then at some point racing classes could be put on for racing whippets as they do for the bloodhounds (tracking dogs) and gundogs (gamekeeper). After all there are a number of racers who do choose to show their racing dogs.

I've noticed that the BSFA are trying to get recognition from the KC is that what they are wanting for their Lure Coursers of Merit?

 

[Mark Roberts]

I think it is Mark. The schedule clearly lay out the qualification details, and then it is up to the individual exhibitor to decide which class to enter their dogs in by reading the Class Definitions

Yes but to anyone new to showing (well I did try showing 12 years ago we entered 6 show but it board me & the dog stiff) you have some people saying 1 thing and otheres who have shown in the class saying other things, so to a novice can you understand why even though its writen in the scedule hearing from people that enter the class that its not the case would be confusing?.

It already is, if you care to read the schedule properly.

Can I take it that wasnt realy meant to so8und condicending?

 

[Mark Roberts]

I've noticed that the BSFA are trying to get recognition from the KC is that what they are wanting for their Lure Coursers of Merit?

I wrote to the whippet club and asked that now coursing was banned would they be willing to consider recognising Lure Coursing in a simlar way to which it had recognised, the reply I got was a resounding NO!

 

[TC]

I think it is Mark. The schedule clearly lay out the qualification details, and then it is up to the individual exhibitor to decide which class to enter their dogs in by reading the Class Definitions

Yes but to anyone new to showing (well I did try showing 12 years ago we entered 6 show but it board me & the dog stiff) you have some people saying 1 thing and otheres who have shown in the class saying other things, so to a novice can you understand why even though its writen in the scedule hearing from people that enter the class that its not the case would be confusing?.

Mark, I am new to showing (about a year and a half) and so I read every schedule as some shows tend to have slight differences in their Class Definition. I read the Crufts schedule as a novice and saw that you had to be qualified to enter before you even think about deciding which class.

The confusion came for me when others said as long as your dog had won a race etc it could be entered in this class.

I'm just glad it's sorted :thumbsup:

 

[Joanna]

OK so it looks like you should have to qualify in the normal way + they should have raced ect.
So back to my original question (which seems such a long time ago now)

What should the dogs that are compeating in the Racing & LC class have done Racing & LC wise to be able to qualify and shoulnt the Kc/steward run some kind of check to make sure that they realy do deserve to be in the racing/LC class and are not just pot hunters looking for an easyer class (I know many of the dogs that were there this year deserved to be but I know of the 2 I mentioned to IMO didnt deserve to be in the Racing/LC class)

Come on what should a dog have to have done race/LC wise to deem it to be a genuine entrant in the racing/LC class?.

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I think there are several ways a dog should be able to qualify.

1. A WCRCh/VC should have automatic entry for life.

2. A lure courser of merit should have automatic entry for life.

3. A dog cleared for racing who holds a current passport and has competed in at least one open meeting within the time frame should be given entry.

4. A dog who has won at least 3 courses (making a single journey to the BSFA impossible) within the season proir to the following Crufts.

I actually don't think club dogs who win a race should have the right to be in that group. It is too easy to manipulate.

Just my views, and obviously they will not be the same as every-one else's.

 

[BeeJay]

>Mark, I am new to showing (about a year and a half) and so I read every schedule as some shows tend to have slight differences in their Class Definition. I read the Crufts schedule as a novice and saw that you had to be qualified to enter before you even think about deciding which class.

Whereas other people new to showing have been told by very experienced breeders to enter their dogs in those classes even though they haven't qualified at a champ show. ie can't show the dog at Crufts 'cause it isn't eligible, that's okay you race/course your dog so enter the racing / coursing class. And they've spoken from the experience of doing it themselves.

Just goes to prove that you should check things out for yourself and NOT believe what others tell you no matter how much respect for their knowledge you have.

 

[TC]

OK so it looks like you should have to qualify in the normal way + they should have raced ect.
So back to my original question (which seems such a long time ago now)

What should the dogs that are compeating in the Racing & LC class have done Racing & LC wise to be able to qualify and shoulnt the Kc/steward run some kind of check to make sure that they realy do deserve to be in the racing/LC class and are not just pot hunters looking for an easyer class (I know many of the dogs that were there this year deserved to be but I know of the 2 I mentioned to IMO didnt deserve to be in the Racing/LC class)

Come on what should a dog have to have done race/LC wise to deem it to be a genuine entrant in the racing/LC class?.

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​

I think there are several ways a dog should be able to qualify.

1. A WCRCh/VC should have automatic entry for life.

2. A lure courser of merit should have automatic entry for life.

3. A dog cleared for racing who holds a current passport and has competed in at least one open meeting within the time frame should be given entry.

4. A dog who has won at least 3 courses (making a single journey to the BSFA impossible) within the season proir to the following Crufts.

I actually don't think club dogs who win a race should have the right to be in that group. It is too easy to manipulate.

Just my views, and obviously they will not be the same as every-one else's.

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Hi Joanna,

Can I ask one question please o

When you say "A dog who has won at least three courses" can you clarify 'won'? I have seen courses where one dog has got to the lure first, but the other scored higher based on it's skill during the course?

At a recent show (NWA I think :b ) the definition was to have won it's CLASS at a BSFA event

Not being picky, just inquisitive :*

 

[Joanna]

OK so it looks like you should have to qualify in the normal way + they should have raced ect.
So back to my original question (which seems such a long time ago now)

What should the dogs that are compeating in the Racing & LC class have done Racing & LC wise to be able to qualify and shoulnt the Kc/steward run some kind of check to make sure that they realy do deserve to be in the racing/LC class and are not just pot hunters looking for an easyer class (I know many of the dogs that were there this year deserved to be but I know of the 2 I mentioned to IMO didnt deserve to be in the Racing/LC class)

Come on what should a dog have to have done race/LC wise to deem it to be a genuine entrant in the racing/LC class?.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I think there are several ways a dog should be able to qualify.

1. A WCRCh/VC should have automatic entry for life.

2. A lure courser of merit should have automatic entry for life.

3. A dog cleared for racing who holds a current passport and has competed in at least one open meeting within the time frame should be given entry.

4. A dog who has won at least 3 courses (making a single journey to the BSFA impossible) within the season proir to the following Crufts.

I actually don't think club dogs who win a race should have the right to be in that group. It is too easy to manipulate.

Just my views, and obviously they will not be the same as every-one else's.

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​

Hi Joanna,

Can I ask one question please o

When you say "A dog who has one at least three courses" can you clarify 'won'? I have seen courses where one dog has got to the lure first, but the other scored higher based on it's skill during the course?

At a recent show (NWA I think :b ) the definition was to have won it's CLASS at a BSFA event

Not being picky, just inquisitive :*

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I meant judged to have won, ie, gained the most points, not caught the lure :thumbsup:

 

[TC]

>Mark, I am new to showing (about a year and a half) and so I read every schedule as some shows tend to have slight differences in their Class Definition. I read the Crufts schedule as a novice and saw that you had to be qualified to enter before you even think about deciding which class.
Whereas other people new to showing have been told by very experienced breeders to enter their dogs in those classes even though they haven't qualified at a champ show.  ie can't show the dog at Crufts 'cause it isn't eligible, that's okay you race/course your dog so enter the racing / coursing class.  And they've spoken from the experience of doing it themselves.

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Totally agree Barbara :thumbsup:

I'm 50/50 on this one :b If I'd listened to a couple of people my dog would have been there, but I'm such a nancy I have to play by the rules, so read them for myself. If someone was going to be pulled up for illegal entry, it would be me (w00t)

 

[Mark Roberts]

Whereas other people new to showing have been told by very experienced breeders to enter their dogs in those classes even though they haven't qualified at a champ show. ie can't show the dog at Crufts 'cause it isn't eligible, that's okay you race/course your dog so enter the racing / coursing class. And they've spoken from the experience of doing it themselves

Exactly, :thumbsup:

IMO THe KC needs to tighten up on who is and isnt elegible for the class, i'm not against a dog having to get placed at a champ show ect.

but it seems theres so much confusion from people who show and even enter the class.

i'd not read the scedule as id not tried entering the show and ive tried reading it through the KC web site but for some reason it wont open up otherwise I would of read it but there would still be the confussion as some have stated theyd entered without qualifying in the normal way.?

 

[TC]

OK so it looks like you should have to qualify in the normal way + they should have raced ect.
So back to my original question (which seems such a long time ago now)

What should the dogs that are compeating in the Racing & LC class have done Racing & LC wise to be able to qualify and shoulnt the Kc/steward run some kind of check to make sure that they realy do deserve to be in the racing/LC class and are not just pot hunters looking for an easyer class (I know many of the dogs that were there this year deserved to be but I know of the 2 I mentioned to IMO didnt deserve to be in the Racing/LC class)

Come on what should a dog have to have done race/LC wise to deem it to be a genuine entrant in the racing/LC class?.

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​

I think there are several ways a dog should be able to qualify.

1. A WCRCh/VC should have automatic entry for life.

2. A lure courser of merit should have automatic entry for life.

3. A dog cleared for racing who holds a current passport and has competed in at least one open meeting within the time frame should be given entry.

4. A dog who has won at least 3 courses (making a single journey to the BSFA impossible) within the season proir to the following Crufts.

I actually don't think club dogs who win a race should have the right to be in that group. It is too easy to manipulate.

Just my views, and obviously they will not be the same as every-one else's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Hi Joanna,

Can I ask one question please o

When you say "A dog who has won at least three courses" can you clarify 'won'? I have seen courses where one dog has got to the lure first, but the other scored higher based on it's skill during the course?

At a recent show (NWA I think :b ) the definition was to have won it's CLASS at a BSFA event

Not being picky, just inquisitive :*

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I meant judged to have won, ie, gained the most points, not caught the lure :thumbsup:

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Thanks Jo :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

Can I ask one question please

When you say "A dog who has one at least three courses" can you clarify 'won'? I have seen courses where one dog has got to the lure first, but the other scored higher based on it's skill during the course?

At a recent show (NWA I think ) the definition was to have won it's CLASS at a BSFA event

Not being picky, just inquisitive

as the dogs are judge at the BSFA against a score card and not against itys running partner there is only realy 1 winner for each breed and thats the dog that scores the most points when its 2 runs are added together, so realy only 1 dog would qualify from each BSFA meeting?.

 

[TC]

Can I ask one question please

When you say "A dog who has one at least three courses" can you clarify 'won'? I have seen courses where one dog has got to the lure first, but the other scored higher based on it's skill during the course?

At a recent show (NWA I think ) the definition was to have won it's CLASS at a BSFA event

Not being picky, just inquisitive

as the dogs are judge at the BSFA against a score card and not against itys running partner there is only realy 1 winner for each breed and thats the dog that scores the most points when its 2 runs are added together, so realy only 1 dog would qualify from each BSFA meeting?.

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What you're saying then, is that the qualifier would be Best of Breed, where as I was talking about Class Winner (highest scoring whippet in each class from two runs), and Jo is referring to winner of a run (she stipulated that dogs must win three runs so they would have to attend at least two meetings in the time scale set as they only run twice in each meeting)

The reason I asked my question (as we're discussing confusion quite a lot) is that someone could read that requirement as simply getting to the lure first, rather than scoring the highest out of the two dogs. If people reading were only familiar with racing they might compare it i.e who ever crosses the line first is the winner, so who ever gets the lure first is the winner.

 

[Joanna]

Can I ask one question please

When you say "A dog who has one at least three courses" can you clarify 'won'? I have seen courses where one dog has got to the lure first, but the other scored higher based on it's skill during the course?

At a recent show (NWA I think ) the definition was to have won it's CLASS at a BSFA event

Not being picky, just inquisitive

as the dogs are judge at the BSFA against a score card and not against itys running partner there is only realy 1 winner for each breed and thats the dog that scores the most points when its 2 runs are added together, so realy only 1 dog would qualify from each BSFA meeting?.

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I suppose in my own mind it is fairer to count each course, and they only score overall, that doesn't tell you who has won the course, just their position in the group as you have said. If the BSFA wanted to ensure the discipline was eligable for qualifiying for the group, I am sure there would be some way of arranging a fair system, even if it was on the amount of points scored at a meeting, say over 70 on two occasions(days)? What would you suggest relating to lure coursing as you run your own club Mark?

 

[Mark Roberts]

I suppose in my own mind it is fairer to count each course, and they only score overall, that doesn't tell you who has won the course, just their position in the group as you have said. If the BSFA wanted to ensure the discipline was eligable for qualifiying for the group, I am sure there would be some way of arranging a fair system, even if it was on the amount of points scored at a meeting, say over 70 on two occasions(days)? What would you suggest relating to lure coursing as you run your own club Mark

Right here we go,

now the way we run the lure coursing is based on the Old method used in realy coursing, dogs are paired up pre lure coursing and a printed programme (i'll explain a bit later) the dogs then run in pairs against each other not a score card for gameness ect, the way we do it you end up with 2 dogs in a final thayt will of had to of run 4 times in a 16 dog stake to win so IMO both the winner & runner up would be elegible to compeat in the Racing/LC class.

not another point about the way the BSFA do it (but i'm not actualy knocking the BSFA just pointing somthing out) is that at their meetings the owner chooses who they run with not the organisers so theres nothing to stop you from taking your show bred dog there that had been placed at a champs show and so qualified for crufts and also taking a naibours 15lb overweight 12 year old half crippled whippet and running it against yours twice in the day? would this then realy count as a genuine win and so give you the right to show in the racing/LC class at crufts NOT IMO

 

[TC]

I suppose in my own mind it is fairer to count each course, and they only score overall, that doesn't tell you who has won the course, just their position in the group as you have said. If the BSFA wanted to ensure the discipline was eligable for qualifiying for the group, I am sure there would be some way of arranging a fair system, even if it was on the amount of points scored at a meeting, say over 70 on two occasions(days)? What would you suggest relating to lure coursing as you run your own club Mark

Right here we go,

now the way we run the lure coursing is based on the Old method used in realy coursing, dogs are paired up pre lure coursing and a printed programme (i'll explain a bit later) the dogs then run in pairs against each other not a score card for gameness ect, the way we do it you end up with 2 dogs in a final thayt will of had to of run 4 times in a 16 dog stake to win so IMO both the winner & runner up would be elegible to compeat in the Racing/LC class.

not another point about the way the BSFA do it (but i'm not actualy knocking the BSFA just pointing somthing out) is that at their meetings the owner chooses who they run with not the organisers so theres nothing to stop you from taking your show bred dog there that had been placed at a champs show and so qualified for crufts and also taking a naibours 15lb overweight 12 year old half crippled whippet and running it against yours twice in the day? would this then realy count as a genuine win and so give you the right to show in the racing/LC class at crufts NOT IMO

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(w00t) That's why I think it should be Class Winner :thumbsup: