Racing/lure coursing

[dessie]

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Just goes to prove that you should check things out for yourself and NOT believe what others tell you no matter how much respect for their knowledge you have.

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Quite so!

As far as being eligible for a Racing/Coursing class goes, I can only comment on Lure Coursing as I do not, and have no wish to, race my dogs. I think the wording 'to have won a course' is a little misleading ..........as far as the BSFA (which is the LC club stipulated in the Crufts schedule) is concerned, it is made up of four classes for each breed and the one with the highest points from those four classes is declared BOB. Then the highest points BoB winner overall is BiF (Best in Field). So, do they mean a class winner, a BoB winner or a BiF winner??? My own personal interpretation of it is a BoB winner and that is the criteria I would apply to my own dogs when entering a LC class.

However, having said all of that I enter whatever class my dog is eligible for that I think will maximise his chances of winning/gaining a place. For instance, last year I did not bother to enter Crufts at all because I did not think the judge would like my dogs, irrespective of which class they were in. My thoughts were upheld at the Whippet Club this year when I entered under her and came 3rd out of 3! LOL! So I was right not to waste £20+.

But Crufts is the world shop window for show dogs and this year, although I would not ordinarily enter under the judge I decided to because it is Crufts, and it is not so much what the judge does as what people at the ringside see. Rupert was eligible for 4 classes, Mid Limit, Limit, Open or Racing/Coursing. I decided to enter him in the R/C class because I knew there would be a 'mixed bag' entered whereas in the other classes it would be full of dogs more to the judge's taste. Again, my gut feeling paid off because he was placed 3rd. It is called gamesmanship.

If it had been a judge who I either knew or hoped liked my dogs there is NO WAY I would enter the R/C class, I would either go for Limit or Open. I know my dogs can do what they are inherently bred for, they do it every day when I take them out for their walks, I do not need to prove it to myself or a judge at a show. I take my dogs to a show to be judged against the breed standard and I give them the best opportunity of winning. There's a good adage in horseracing ........ you mix with the best class of person possible and enter your horse against the worst!!!

One other thing I did notice though, after every class you will get the barrage of photographers taking pictures of the line-up. But after the R/C class there was only one chap .............seems like the rest weren't interested!!! Doesn't that tell you something! Rupert was MOST disappointed as he loves posing!!!! LOL! :lol:

 

[aslan]

a badly put together dog wouldn't be able to run correctly let alone fast

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I'll drink to that, Hannah! :thumbsup: :cheers:

 

[TC]

Just goes to prove that you should check things out for yourself and NOT believe what others tell you no matter how much respect for their knowledge you have.

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Quite so!

As far as being eligible for a Racing/Coursing class goes, I can only comment on Lure Coursing as I do not, and have no wish to, race my dogs. I think the wording 'to have won a course' is a little misleading ..........as far as the BSFA (which is the LC club stipulated in the Crufts schedule) is concerned, it is made up of four classes for each breed and the one with the highest points from those four classes is declared BOB. Then the highest points BoB winner overall is BiF (Best in Field). So, do they mean a class winner, a BoB winner or a BiF winner??? My own personal interpretation of it is a BoB winner and that is the criteria I would apply to my own dogs when entering a LC class.

However, having said all of that I enter whatever class my dog is eligible for that I think will maximise his chances of winning/gaining a place. For instance, last year I did not bother to enter Crufts at all because I did not think the judge would like my dogs, irrespective of which class they were in. My thoughts were upheld at the Whippet Club this year when I entered under her and came 3rd out of 3! LOL! So I was right not to waste £20+.

But Crufts is the world shop window for show dogs and this year, although I would not ordinarily enter under the judge I decided to because it is Crufts, and it is not so much what the judge does as what people at the ringside see. Rupert was eligible for 4 classes, Mid Limit, Limit, Open or Racing/Coursing. I decided to enter him in the R/C class because I knew there would be a 'mixed bag' entered whereas in the other classes it would be full of dogs more to the judge's taste. Again, my gut feeling paid off because he was placed 3rd. It is called gamesmanship.

If it had been a judge who I either knew or hoped liked my dogs there is NO WAY I would enter the R/C class, I would either go for Limit or Open. I know my dogs can do what they are inherently bred for, they do it every day when I take them out for their walks, I do not need to prove it to myself or a judge at a show. I take my dogs to a show to be judged against the breed standard and I give them the best opportunity of winning. There's a good adage in horseracing ........ you mix with the best class of person possible and enter your horse against the worst!!!

One other thing I did notice though, after every class you will get the barrage of photographers taking pictures of the line-up. But after the R/C class there was only one chap .............seems like the rest weren't interested!!! Doesn't that tell you something! Rupert was MOST disappointed as he loves posing!!!! LOL! :lol:

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Excellent post Caroline :thumbsup:

Sorry about Rupert's posing opportunity though (w00t)

 

[Mark Roberts]

I did not bother to enter Crufts at all because I did not think the judge would like my dogs

Now this is what gets me about showing (not a critisism just an observation) if show dogs are bred to the KC standar & judges are judging to the same breed standard why wouldnt they like your dogs?.

decided to enter him in the R/C class because I knew there would be a 'mixed bag' entered whereas in the other classes it would be full of dogs more to the judge's taste. Again, my gut feeling paid off because he was placed 3rd. It is called gamesmanship.

Says it all, you saw the R/LC class as the easy option which is what I said it was being used for at the start of this thread.

why couldnt somebody of said this 3 days ago.

Hi TC LOL :thumbsup:

 

[BeeJay]

Just goes to prove that you should check things out for yourself and NOT believe what others tell you no matter how much respect for their knowledge you have.

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Quite so!

As far as being eligible for a Racing/Coursing class goes, I can only comment on Lure Coursing as I do not, and have no wish to, race my dogs. I think the wording 'to have won a course' is a little misleading ..........as far as the BSFA (which is the LC club stipulated in the Crufts schedule) is concerned, it is made up of four classes for each breed and the one with the highest points from those four classes is declared BOB. Then the highest points BoB winner overall is BiF (Best in Field). So, do they mean a class winner, a BoB winner or a BiF winner??? My own personal interpretation of it is a BoB winner and that is the criteria I would apply to my own dogs when entering a LC class.

However, having said all of that I enter whatever class my dog is eligible for that I think will maximise his chances of winning/gaining a place. For instance, last year I did not bother to enter Crufts at all because I did not think the judge would like my dogs, irrespective of which class they were in. My thoughts were upheld at the Whippet Club this year when I entered under her and came 3rd out of 3! LOL! So I was right not to waste £20+.

But Crufts is the world shop window for show dogs and this year, although I would not ordinarily enter under the judge I decided to because it is Crufts, and it is not so much what the judge does as what people at the ringside see. Rupert was eligible for 4 classes, Mid Limit, Limit, Open or Racing/Coursing. I decided to enter him in the R/C class because I knew there would be a 'mixed bag' entered whereas in the other classes it would be full of dogs more to the judge's taste. Again, my gut feeling paid off because he was placed 3rd. It is called gamesmanship.

I think that it's called intelligence and doing the best by your dog.

If it had been a judge who I either knew or hoped liked my dogs there is NO WAY I would enter the R/C class, I would either go for Limit or Open. I know my dogs can do what they are inherently bred for, they do it every day when I take them out for their walks, I do not need to prove it to myself or a judge at a show. I take my dogs to a show to be judged against the breed standard and I give them the best opportunity of winning. There's a good adage in horseracing ........ you mix with the best class of person possible and enter your horse against the worst!!!

One other thing I did notice though, after every class you will get the barrage of photographers taking pictures of the line-up. But after the R/C class there was only one chap .............seems like the rest weren't interested!!! Doesn't that tell you something! Rupert was MOST disappointed as he loves posing!!!! LOL! :lol:

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Poor Rupert and yes it does say everything about the class.

 

[Joanna]

I suppose in my own mind it is fairer to count each course, and they only score overall, that doesn't tell you who has won the course, just their position in the group as you have said. If the BSFA wanted to ensure the discipline was eligable for qualifiying for the group, I am sure there would be some way of arranging a fair system, even if it was on the amount of points scored at a meeting, say over 70 on two occasions(days)? What would you suggest relating to lure coursing as you run your own club Mark

Right here we go,

now the way we run the lure coursing is based on the Old method used in realy coursing, dogs are paired up pre lure coursing and a printed programme (i'll explain a bit later) the dogs then run in pairs against each other not a score card for gameness ect, the way we do it you end up with 2 dogs in a final thayt will of had to of run 4 times in a 16 dog stake to win so IMO both the winner & runner up would be elegible to compeat in the Racing/LC class.

not another point about the way the BSFA do it (but i'm not actualy knocking the BSFA just pointing somthing out) is that at their meetings the owner chooses who they run with not the organisers so theres nothing to stop you from taking your show bred dog there that had been placed at a champs show and so qualified for crufts and also taking a naibours 15lb overweight 12 year old half crippled whippet and running it against yours twice in the day? would this then realy count as a genuine win and so give you the right to show in the racing/LC class at crufts NOT IMO

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I was obviously feeling a tad more genrous than you Mark :lol:

a badly put together dog wouldn't be able to run correctly let alone fast




I'll drink to that, Hannah! 

They can still run fast with curly tails, flying ears and one bollock though Lana :lol: :teehee: :lol:

 

[BeeJay]

I did not bother to enter Crufts at all because I did not think the judge would like my dogs

Now this is what gets me about showing (not a critisism just an observation) if show dogs are bred to the KC standar & judges are judging to the same breed standard why wouldnt they like your dogs?.

decided to enter him in the R/C class because I knew there would be a 'mixed bag' entered whereas in the other classes it would be full of dogs more to the judge's taste. Again, my gut feeling paid off because he was placed 3rd. It is called gamesmanship.

Says it all, you saw the R/LC class as the easy option which is what I said it was being used for at the start of this thread.

why couldnt somebody of said this 3 days ago.

Hi TC LOL :thumbsup:

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There is not much difference IMO between judging a course and judging in the ring. Both have guidelines and are a matter of the judges opinion. Though with the BSFA there are 3 judges. However in showing there are loads of judges outside of the ring and at lure coursing the spectators can't see well enough to judge for themselves.

We are lucky in racing that there aren't more nearly dead heat finishes so matter of opinion doesn't come into things as much.

Well so what if it was the easier/best option. You can say the same about other classes at ordinary champ shows ie the non qualifying classes.

 

[TC]

Hi TC LOL  :thumbsup:

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You're a nightmare Mr Roberts :wacko: (w00t) 8) :- "

 

[chelynnah]

Sorry if I offend anyone but I can't help feeling that the response from the showing fraternity on this subject has been less than gracious.
Would you expect your show whippet to compete fairly in a race against racing whippets (after all what are whippets for?) so why should you be so afraid of competition from genuine racing whippets who will doubtless be penalised for being "over muscled" and "needing more weight"?

What have you got to be afraid of?

Angela

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Sorry!!! (must be my age) I distinctly (don't know how) gained the impression that 'show people' resented the fact that racing/coursing dogs could enter the r/c coursing class at Crufts and (would you believe it?) seriously challenge show dogs for a CC or even BOB ??? (Silly me)

I have this heretic feeling that there is a danger (if it has not already happened) of the whippet breed dividing into two separate racing/showing lines, as the greyhound breed has. Must be imagining things....

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No - people were upset at the idea that a dog that could be in the challenge (either race or show bred - as if all that was needed to qualify for Crufts in that class was running a few races, you'd find show breds in that class as well who'd been taken to the odd race or two just to qualify) wouldn't have had to qualify for Crufts the same way as any other dog. That's nothing to do with type or breeding, that's to do with not having the same standard of entry for each dog.

As we've now had confirmed from the KC, that's not a problem as ALL dogs DO have to qualify for Crufts in the normal way (ie through a placing in specific classes at Ch shows or BOB at Prem Open Shows)

Wendy

 

[Mark Roberts]

You're a nightmare Mr Roberts

only to people I like :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

They can still run fast with curly tails, flying ears and one bollock though Lana

has yours only got 1?

 

[Joanna]

They can still run fast with curly tails, flying ears and one bollock though Lana

has yours only got 1?

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No, Lloyd has two

Oh you mean Fynn.............Well I am far to modest to say he runs fast, but he has two, but does have a curly tail :wub:

 

[dessie]

I did not bother to enter Crufts at all because I did not think the judge would like my dogs

Now this is what gets me about showing (not a critisism just an observation) if show dogs are bred to the KC standar & judges are judging to the same breed standard why wouldnt they like your dogs?.

Because we all interpret the breed standard differently, as has been said many times in the past!! And beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that.

decided to enter him in the R/C class because I knew there would be a 'mixed bag' entered whereas in the other classes it would be full of dogs more to the judge's taste. Again, my gut feeling paid off because he was placed 3rd. It is called gamesmanship.

Says it all, you saw the R/LC class as the easy option which is what I said it was being used for at the start of this thread.

why couldnt somebody of said this 3 days ago.

I think you will find I have said as much, if not on this thread, on another similar one. Quite frankly I think both this class and the Good Citizen one is a load of nonsense at a show like Crufts but I used it to my dog's advantage :thumbsup: ................. there I've said it, happy now???!!! LOL!!! :lol: Just my opinion though and I am sure there are others who think it is a wonderful class :blink: :b

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[dessie]

Here it is in writing from the KC, I posted a message on their website asking for clarification whether a dog has to qualify at a show in the normal way or whether it can be entered straight into the R/C class

Dear Caroline,

 

 

You have to qualify in the breed class first. The racing/coursing classes are extra classes that you can enter if you have the relevant qualifications.

 

 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Ross Sandercock

 

Tel 020 75181012

Fax 020 75181050

Web: www.thekennelclub.org.uk

 

[Angela Bayley]

Here it is in writing from the KC, I posted a message on their website asking for clarification whether a dog has to qualify at a show in the normal way or whether it can be entered straight into the R/C class
Dear Caroline,

 

 

You have to qualify in the breed class first. The racing/coursing classes are extra classes that you can enter if you have the relevant qualifications.

 

 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Ross Sandercock

 

Tel 020 75181012

 

Fax 020 75181050

Web: www.thekennelclub.org.uk

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Well done Caroline you must be very pleased.

However knowing the shambles at the KC I'm still not convinced...

We will be back. F**k the ban!

Yours respectfully

Angela

 

[Angela Bayley]

Absolutely the last word on this subject from me.... I promise

Betty Beaumont (Crufts judge whippet judge 2006 on the r/c class):

"Where were all these nice bitches I see around the track?""

 

Well, you missed your chance last year, you may not get another for several years

 

Angela

 

[Happy Humber]

The kennel clud also have to take into account the Greyhound classes as they have racing/coursing as well and the qualifier is the same.

They would have no entries if the dogs had to come through the champ shows hence more confusion

 

[TC]

Here it is in writing from the KC, I posted a message on their website asking for clarification whether a dog has to qualify at a show in the normal way or whether it can be entered straight into the R/C class
Dear Caroline,

 

 

You have to qualify in the breed class first. The racing/coursing classes are extra classes that you can enter if you have the relevant qualifications.

 

 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Ross Sandercock

 

Tel 020 75181012

Fax 020 75181050

Web: www.thekennelclub.org.uk

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Didn't you believe me then (w00t)

At least it seems like they're able to answer this one a bit quicker now :- "

 

[Strike Whippets]

a badly put together dog wouldn't be able to run correctly let alone fast

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I'll drink to that, Hannah! :thumbsup: :cheers:

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..... I do get a tad sick of hearing how badly our racers are bred .......I know there are some dodgy looking ones, but then that can apply to some show breds and coursing breds as well :- " :b ........

 

[dessie]

Here it is in writing from the KC, I posted a message on their website asking for clarification whether a dog has to qualify at a show in the normal way or whether it can be entered straight into the R/C class
Dear Caroline,

 

 

You have to qualify in the breed class first. The racing/coursing classes are extra classes that you can enter if you have the relevant qualifications.

 

 

 

Kind Regards

 

 

Ross Sandercock

 

Tel 020 75181012

Fax 020 75181050

Web: www.thekennelclub.org.uk

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Didn't you believe me then (w00t)

At least it seems like they're able to answer this one a bit quicker now :- "

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Don't you start getting all girlie, I probably posted a message on their website at the same time as you rung them and that was the answer I received this afternoon.

In the light of their reply to both you and me, I really don't understand Happy Humber's post about Greyhounds and their R/C class!!! ALL breeds have to qualify at a show in order to enter Crufts, whichever class they want to go in to!!! If there are no entries, there are no entries and if it continues then that class will probably be dropped! It is not rocket science.