Tail Docking

[dawn]

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oops looks like I opened a can of worms this morning (w00t)

 

[05whippet]

We have had gun-dogs for years as my OH shoots (or did until the Whips came along,they now take up most of our time) we had mainly Flat-Coats,Weimaraners & Springers,the latter two being a docked breed........and I would strongly advocate docking in those breeds if you intend to work them, as we did have a couple who were not docked and also knew a few other owners with un-docked dogs and the damage that was incurred to the tails was not a pretty sight at all,in fact in the two Springers and one Weimar we had un-docked, all three had to have adult amputates,which incidently is a lot more difficult and dangerous done then.

So that is MY reason for advocating certain breed tail-docking.

 

[Alex Delarge]

I fed up with people not reading what I've already written, I stated that I think certain breeds of working dogs need their tails docked. I'm only arguing against people who dock their pets tails.

 

[kris]

i had dobermanns for 30 years and the only time i saw bad tail docking was by a vet.they bled like a stuck pig and screamed and i swore id never let a vet do a litter of mine ever again. :angry: i did all my pups tails and dew claws and also did them for hundreds of litters of other breeds over the years.yorkies arent a working dog neither are old english,but i still believe they ought to be docked from a hygenic point of view.they tend to get dirty and in some cases with a careless pet owner can get bunged up.dobes arent a working dog but ive seen terrible injuries on undocked ones when wagging the tail furiously from side to side and banging against a wall or door frame.yes a lot of the time its done for an aesthetic reason,but i cant see whats wrong with that.i certainly never saw any dobe evincing pain from a phantom tail in all the years i had them,nor from phantom dewclaws either. :blink:

circumcision is about religion but its a tradition too. :thumbsup:

noone can say a dog does suffer pain during and years after amputation of the tail,neither can they say it doesnt suffer.noone knows.but i think if the dog did suffer there would have been a concensus of opinion by breeders and owners who had seen evidence of it after all the hundreds of years of it being done.ive never seen a dobe itch,sctatch,bite or otherwise worry at their tails in all the years i had them and i think ive probably had more experience than most, mainly cos i have owned more dogs than most.i dont say people shouldnt have a dog with a traditionally docked tail and then not have it docked.im just saying i would prefer my breed to have a docked tail.in the beginning when the breed was first made (and the dobermann is one of the only man made breeds of dogs in the world)they had their tails docked for a reason.to me that reason is still valid and i think they look better with their tails docked.just my opinion.im not forcing it down anyones throat.

 

[REMI]

So, if I understand the reasoning here, ALL "working" dogs (might need an accurate definition of 'working') should be docked.

That means no dog sold as pet quality or show only should be docked.

Now, what's the current theory on cropping ears? Surely if the dog is not pig hunting it would not require it ears to be cut.

 

[05whippet]

I fed up with people not reading what I've already written, I stated that I think certain breeds of working dogs need their tails docked. I'm only arguing against people who dock their pets tails.

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I was'nt actually referring to your post at all??? I was only stating why I advocate tail-docking in certain breeds for a certain reason as other people on this thread other than you have given their opinion why it should NOT be done ie: tradition,cosmetic etc.But this is their opinion as the above is mine.

 

[05whippet]

So,  if I understand the reasoning here, ALL "working" dogs (might need an accurate definition of 'working')  should be docked.  That means no dog sold as pet quality or show only should be docked.

Now, what's the current theory on cropping ears?  Surely if the dog is not pig hunting it would not require it ears to be cut.

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As far as I know only the Americans ear dock? And to my knowledge it is done for cosmetic reasons? I could be wrong on both parts here though...so feel free to contradict me!

And regarding the "working" reason for docking tails,I can only speak from our own experiences and we only sold our pups to working homes,so they were ALL docked. Although,that said the one Weimaraner that we did have un-docked was FOREVER splitting her tail on the door jambs and the kitchen table legs,cos she wagged it that hard!! Blood up the walls and all over you is NOT good!!! :teehee:

 

[REMI]

Ears were removed on Great Danes in the early days as the dog was used for boar hunting. The pigs would often lock onto the folded down part of the ear which obviously would cause injury.

Just wonder how many Danes hunt pigs now and how many other cropped eared dogs are professional fighters or hunters.

 

[Seraphina]

Both ear cropping and tail docking was originally done to avoid injuries. The problem nowadays is that for every working breed that people claim needs to docked, there is several breeds working in similar conditions, which are not and never were docked.

I just wonder why do spaniels suffer "horrible injuries" to their tails and not to their ears? If animals is pushing through brambles the ears, face and chest would be the first to be injured. I have heard people justifying docking of boxers, dobes and rotties because they bash their tail on furniture, getting them injured, but Great Danes certainly do that and nobody advocates docking them.

To say that if a dog had long tail it would be harder to pull out of a hole is just too ridiculous.

The ears were cropped in fighting and hunting dogs because it was believed that such animals as wild pigs, wolves, lynx or bear would grab and hold the dog by it'a ear. As would the opponent in fighting ring. If you look at some old books the ear was cropped as small as possible, it was only later that this procedure was applied to make the ear large and standing up.

But just because some procedures were considered beneficial in the past that does not make it right. Lot of things were believed, like that if your bitch gets mated to a mongrel you can never breed a purebred litter from her.

Lets face it just because a dog looks better to you without tail or with cropped ears is NOT GOOD ENOUGH REASON to subject dog to a an amputation.

I know exactly how you feel, for me Great Dane does not look right unless it has ears up. But that is my problem, my conditioning from seeing only cropped Danes for the first 20 years of my life. I find it hard to get over that, BUT I know it is my problem, and do not go around advocating ear cropping.

 

[05whippet]

Both ear cropping and tail docking was originally done to avoid injuries.  The problem nowadays is that for every working breed that people claim needs to docked, there is several breeds working in similar conditions, which are not and never were docked.
I just wonder why do spaniels suffer "horrible injuries" to their tails and not to their ears?  If animals is pushing through brambles the ears, face and chest would be the first to be injured.  I have heard people justifying docking of boxers, dobes and rotties because they bash their tail on furniture, getting them injured, but Great Danes certainly do that and nobody advocates docking them. 

To say that if a dog had long tail it would be harder to pull out of a hole is just too ridiculous.

The ears were cropped in fighting and hunting dogs because it was believed that such animals as wild pigs, wolves, lynx or bear would grab and hold the dog by it'a ear.   As would the opponent in fighting ring.   If you look at some old books the ear was cropped as small as possible, it was only later that this procedure was applied to make the ear large and standing up.

But just because some procedures were considered beneficial in the past that does not make it right.  Lot of things were believed, like that if your bitch gets mated to a mongrel you can never breed a purebred litter from her. 

Lets face it just because a dog looks better to you without tail or with cropped ears is NOT GOOD ENOUGH REASON to subject dog to a an amputation.

I know exactly how you feel, for me Great Dane does not look right unless it has ears up.  But that is my problem, my conditioning from seeing only cropped Danes for the first 20 years of my life.  I find it hard to get over that, BUT I know it is my problem, and do not go around advocating ear cropping.

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Working Spaniel's do suffer some ear damage but it is less so than with their tails as there is a lot less feathering to the tail to protect it than the ear.I can't speak for everyone who works their dogs, only from my own experience and our dogs DID severely damage their tails (the ones we had with them intact) and very seldom their ears and certainly with less damage......I am only guessing at why above.

And yes,I know all about Dane's splitting their tails on the furniture as we had them too and they were forever doing it! And I too prefer a Dane with cropped ears but this is because I find it more aesthetically pleasing to MY eye,but I certainly would'nt condone ear cropping.

I should have also stated on my other post that NOW the only reason that I know of ear cropping being done was cosmetic......unless of course we are being over-run by wild boar or bear and have a need for these breed's ears to be cropped,in which case I missed that on the news!! :teehee: :lol: (w00t)

 

[FeeFee]

There may be arguments for docking working dogs, I don't feel able to judge as I've never worked a traditionally docked breed, but my lurchers certainly spend plenty of time rooting through undergrowth and brambles and seem to manage to keep their long whippy tails intact.

The fact remains that 99% of the docked dogs I see are not working dogs, they are family pets and there's no reason whatsoever for them to be docked - except that some people think they look better. Personally I'd rather see a dog with a tail every time.

 

[wild whippies]

See when I see threads like this I always miss ILKC, I can't help thinking that only an experienced vet could give a true input into how great the incidence is of injury to those breeds of dogs that were designed to have docked tails.

There is a number of vets out there who are pro-docking, I presume their reasons are from experience and not cost as carrying out this procedure on an older dog or repairing an injury would be considerably more expensive?

 

[Seraphina]

See when I see threads like this I always miss ILKC, I can't help thinking that only an experienced vet could give a true input into how great the incidence is of injury to those breeds of dogs that were designed to have docked tails.There is a number of vets out there who are pro-docking, I presume their reasons are from experience and not cost as carrying out this procedure on an older dog or repairing an injury would be considerably more expensive?

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The problem is that to accurately assess the incidents of tail injuries we would have to have a reliable data on hours spent in the dense undergrowth and numbers of injuries. The sort of anecdotal evidence that is presented is really no good for truly objective assessment. Vets reports would only be good to get number of dogs with injuries presented in their surgery, but that does not show how many dogs are also working and are not getting injured.

Actually, I do not have particularly strong anti docking stand. I do not believe it is cruel when done properly within the first few days, as the brain neurons are not wired up as yet so the discomfort the pup is feeling is minimal. I just cannot understand why bother. It may take some time to get used to but Rotties, Dobes, Weimeraners, Spaniels all look great with their tails.

What worries me is that tail docking, ears cropping and dewclaw removals are all being lumped together. All are being defended on bases that these practices prevent injury. In the case of ears that does not stack up at all, lack of wild boars or bears aside, the way ears are cropped nowadays would not be help at all. Bleeding tail is a nuisance, but ripped dewclaw is really nasty.

 

[REMI]

If the argument for tail docking is to save the animal from injury, why are not ALL dogs docked?

What about a Miniature Pinscher - they are such a tiny little creature, I am sure their tail would not injure others or get injured, short of standing on it. So why do they get docked?

Maybe Whippets and Iggies shold be docked because, even at play, they are often in 'dangerous' situations.

I could almost cope with the cropping and docking if people were brave enough to say they just liked it. Nah, couldn't really.

I have a theory that an awful lot of dog attacks - on humans and other dogs - are partially due to the lack clear communication from dogs without tails.

Reckon taking a tail off a dog removes a great percentage of their communication abilities.

 

[REMI]

Though I might have a go.....would hate my girl to hurt her tail on the farm or have a wombat rip at her ears.....

 

[Seraphina]

Though I might have a go.....would hate my girl to hurt her tail on the farm or have a wombat rip at her ears.....
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(w00t)

OMG if she had a tail and put her ears back she would look like my my Callista

 

[Alex Delarge]

It's clear that some people advocating docking of pets tails are just not educated in such things. This has been clarified by some of the recent unintelligent posts. Phantom dew claws? Yeah dead funny, hope you made yourself laugh. In comparison to a dogs tail there are very few nerve endings in the dew claw (and remember I'm not just talking about pain receptors, nerves for controlling tail movement, sensing touch, heat, cold). The sad fact seems to be that people in favour of PETS being docked are stubborn & set in their ways, no matter what evidence is thrown at them they will defend PET docking because, "it's always been done", "i don't see the dog in any discomfort or pain", "my mummy and daddy did it before me and so it must be good", "the breed wouldn't be the breed without docking" blah, blah, blah.

I'll say again I've still to hear one reasonable argument for PET tail docking :- "

Dogs are born with tails, if so many problems were caused by the tail in life the 99% of vets against tail docking would turn - especially as vets are here to make money people!! Vets would lose out on expenses for tail docking if it were banned in pets. :thumbsup:

 

[REMI]

Callista is beautiful and she does look like The Italian Princess.

 

[Strike Whippets]

There is a number of vets out there who are pro-docking, I presume their reasons are from experience and not cost as carrying out this procedure on an older dog or repairing an injury would be considerably more expensive?

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My vets have only docked their "proper working dogs" clients tails for the past few years ......Their stance on docking is its very unnecessary ....... as they see VERY few injuries with pet dog/show dogs tails .......The biggest offender in tail damage they see is from Greyhounds who keep splitting open the ends of their tails by wagging them to much ........I personally think unless the dog is going to be really worked .....leave the tails on .....It would help a load of these pet people who haven't a clue, as at least their dog would be able to communicate correctly with other dogs .......

 

[beaker]

It's clear that some people advocating docking of pets tails are just not educated in such things. This has been clarified by some of the recent unintelligent posts. Phantom dew claws? Yeah dead funny, hope you made yourself laugh. In comparison to a dogs tail there are very few nerve endings in the dew claw (and remember I'm not just talking about pain receptors, nerves for controlling tail movement, sensing touch, heat, cold). The sad fact seems to be that people in favour of PETS being docked are stubborn & set in their ways, no matter what evidence is thrown at them they will defend PET docking because, "it's always been done", "i don't see the dog in any discomfort or pain", "my mummy and daddy did it before me and so it must be good", "the breed wouldn't be the breed without docking" blah, blah, blah.
I'll say again I've still to hear one reasonable argument for PET tail docking  :- "

Dogs are born with tails, if so many problems were caused by the tail in life the 99% of vets against tail docking would turn - especially as vets are here to make money people!! Vets would lose out on expenses for tail docking if it were banned in pets. :thumbsup:

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to say that if someone is pro docking then they must lack understanding is a bit inflammatory, just because someone disaggrees does not necessarly make them wrong. surely someone who has seen dogs work with and without the tails, can give a good account of injuries they have seen over many years and has been involved in working, showing and just pet owning has a very valid view on the subject.

i'm quite happy for pets to be left undocked if it can be guaranteed that they will never work,

like i said before most of the newcomers to working and trials etc start out with their pet dog first, so the only way to guarantee a pet with a tail isn't worked is to ban tailed dogs in the field, as pet dogs should 'never' be docked this would have a devastating effect on the number of newbies entering the sport....

and ''Hurrah'' say the anti's

as for vets loosing out, wow i'm sure they will really miss that couple of quid a pup fee thats gets charged to dock or dewclaw when they can charge hundreds to fix the injuries later in life :wacko:

i am not pro docking on many of the breeds today that 'used' to do a job, it is totally unecessary and to dock for historical purposes is not a strong enough argument, i'd be more than happy to see docking in these breeds stopped (though i would struggle to be able to distinguish a undocked min pin from an ETT :lol: )

just out of interest, i know there was some talk some years ago about trying to use corgi's with natural bob tails in a breeding program with boxers to try and develop a natural bob in boxers, :thumbsup: