Tail Docking

[beaker]

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I had promised myself that I would only make one contribution to this topic but I was thinking about Corgis.  I wonder if those who work Cardigans have more problems than those who work Pembrokes.
Jenny

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dunno if there is a difference in working ability between the two, maybe the size difference is more of a factor over tail length, just don't know sorry :b

a lot of pembrokes have a naturally bobbed tail, think the other pembrokes are probably docked to keep uniformity but don't quote me on it

i'll ask a corgi person i know on monday what the working differences are between the two :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

I fed up with people not reading what I've already written, I stated that I think certain breeds of working dogs need their tails docked. I'm only arguing against people who dock their pets tails

So how does a breeder of terriers/gun dogs decide which ones will be going to pet or working homes at 2 days old?.

is that coffee I can smell :- "

 

[kris]

well the old tried and trusted method of course!dip, dip, dip,.............. :- "

 

[Seraphina]

Its not ridiciuolous to say that a terrier with a longer tail could get trapped down the hole as we know that a fox terrier(if you know what one is its not a jack russel as some uneducated people think) without a docked tail will have a curled tail which will lie flat on the back of the dog therfor not acting as an anchor or pipestopper(that means an erect tail). Docking of this breed was done 450 years ago for that reason. the pipestopper tail anchors the dog so the owner can find the terrier in the hole an pull him out. You will only understand when you have worked and lived with this breed. Our dogs catch the rats down our alotment and a good job too.

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Considering that foxterrier with docked tail has it standing up, I find it intrigueing that if it was full length it would be flat on his back. I was commenting to the previous post where you claimed that while your dog has a docked tail you are able to reach it and pull it out of a hole. While if it was not docked you would not be able to do that. Now, this pressumes that the dog would get always stuck at a spot just reachable by your arm, which indeed is ridiculous.

Pupppies cant remeber the 2nd day of their life the same as we cant remember the day we were born.

Nothing to do with memory, but is due to the fact that the brain pain receptors are not fully operational until about the 6th day after birth.

The problem I have is that, just as Alex said, I have not heard one single really well substantiated argument for the necessity to dock. And I certainly do agree that are lot worse things happening to dogs than having their tails docked. I also do not understand why does dog need to be docked to be able to catch rats???

 

[05whippet]

Its not ridiciuolous to say that a terrier with a longer tail could get trapped down the hole as we know that a fox terrier(if you know what one is its not a jack russel as some uneducated people think) without a docked tail will have a curled tail which will lie flat on the back of the dog therfor not acting as an anchor or pipestopper(that means an erect tail). Docking of this breed was done 450 years ago for that reason. the pipestopper tail anchors the dog so the owner can find the terrier in the hole an pull him out. You will only understand when you have worked and lived with this breed. Our dogs catch the rats down our alotment and a good job too.

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Considering that foxterrier with docked tail has it standing up, I find it intrigueing that if it was full length it would be flat on his back. I was commenting to the previous post where you claimed that while your dog has a docked tail you are able to reach it and pull it out of a hole. While if it was not docked you would not be able to do that. Now, this pressumes that the dog would get always stuck at a spot just reachable by your arm, which indeed is ridiculous.

Pupppies cant remeber the 2nd day of their life the same as we cant remember the day we were born.

Nothing to do with memory, but is due to the fact that the brain pain receptors are not fully operational until about the 6th day after birth.

The problem I have is that, just as Alex said, I have not heard one single really well substantiated argument for the necessity to dock. And I certainly do agree that are lot worse things happening to dogs than having their tails docked. I also do not understand why does dog need to be docked to be able to catch rats???

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Well I think if you really want to know why certain breeds need to be docked then you would be best to speak with the shooting fraternity whose dogs work virtually everyday of their lives, (I have tried to explain why we did it in our working Gundogs) but I am sure they will be able to validate exactly why it is they feel the need to dock their chosen breeds as opposed to leaving them with full tails..........it is very interesting though to note that the most people who are against docking don't have Gundog breeds that they work.

 

[kris]

when terriers were matched in pits to fight and kill rats the tail was used as an easy way to pull the dog off when neccessary as it was the furthest end from the jaws!many terriers when their blood is up arent discriminatory about what they bite! :- " also i think if a rat latched onto a tail the dog might not be able to get at it and it could cause injuries that are hard to heal if the dog could keep wagging it and spraying blood. :thumbsup:

 

[Seraphina]

when terriers were matched in pits to fight and kill rats the tail was used as an easy way to pull the dog off when neccessary as it was the furthest end from the jaws!many terriers when their blood is up arent discriminatory about what they bite! :- "

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But that is not happening any more, is it??? :unsure: Why would it be easier to grab a short tail than a long tail. The long tail is perfectly good for breaking up fight among Great Danes :b

also i think if a rat latched onto a tail the dog might not be able to get at it and it could cause injuries that are hard to heal if the dog could keep wagging it and spraying blood. :thumbsup:

(w00t) That is a very unlikely scenario :lol:

Rats are aggressive if cornered and any bite likely is to the dogs face or front legs.

The best ever reason for docking I heard so far was from an old breeder of Yorkies, and she said on national television: " But they have to have their tails docked! They cannot have tails, they would not know where to put them!" :lol: :teehee:

There is another point to this debate, which i do not think anybody else brought up and that is that dogs use their tails as counterballance when running.

 

[kris]

so a docked dog will keep falling over? :lol:

the reason the tail is docked is cos with a long tail the dog can twist and turn around and still bite.with a short tail he finds it much harder.when a terrier is in fighting mode he can and will bite anything.they just see red.obviously pit matches no longer occur,(well not legally anyway)but i was talking about why the tradition of docking started in the first place. :thumbsup:

yes when a rat is cornered he will attack the face/front end,but when the dogs were put into pits to fight they werent matched with one rat! :lol: they were put in with dozens and sometimes a hundred or more.any self respecting terrier had to kill as quickly as he could and if he was slow he could end up with a rat or two attached to his nether regions.

 

[kris]

oh and also the pits were usually round,so a rat didnt have a corner to hide in.(just rememembered that cos ive got old lithograph prints showing pit fights with terriers and rats)

 

[boothros]

Have added a poll.

 

[foxway]

Its not ridiciuolous to say that a terrier with a longer tail could get trapped down the hole as we know that a fox terrier(if you know what one is its not a jack russel as some uneducated people think) without a docked tail will have a curled tail which will lie flat on the back of the dog therfor not acting as an anchor or pipestopper(that means an erect tail). Docking of this breed was done 450 years ago for that reason. the pipestopper tail anchors the dog so the owner can find the terrier in the hole an pull him out. You will only understand when you have worked and lived with this breed. Our dogs catch the rats down our alotment and a good job too.

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Considering that foxterrier with docked tail has it standing up, I find it intrigueing that if it was full length it would be flat on his back. I was commenting to the previous post where you claimed that while your dog has a docked tail you are able to reach it and pull it out of a hole. While if it was not docked you would not be able to do that. Now, this pressumes that the dog would get always stuck at a spot just reachable by your arm, which indeed is ridiculous.

Pupppies cant remeber the 2nd day of their life the same as we cant remember the day we were born.

Nothing to do with memory, but is due to the fact that the brain pain receptors are not fully operational until about the 6th day after birth.

The problem I have is that, just as Alex said, I have not heard one single really well substantiated argument for the necessity to dock. And I certainly do agree that are lot worse things happening to dogs than having their tails docked. I also do not understand why does dog need to be docked to be able to catch rats???

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i did quote at the start of my opion the damage % of tails when it was banned in the first year in sweden it was 51% before the pups were 18months old in one breed alone. THAT IS A VERY HIGH % ITS A STATED FACT IN THE FOX TERRIER BOOK. BY DIANA CHADS YOU CAN LOOK IT UP IF YOU LIKE 51% IN ONE BREED ONLY! THAT IS VERY HIGH. THAT IS A SUBSTANTIAL AGRUMENTFOR NOT SUPPORTING THE BAN.

The tail dosent go in the hole if it is docked as it acts a a stopper(an anchor stopping it from going right into the hole) therefor the tail sticks out of the hole my bitch has an american tail and its flat on her back she got stuck in the hole when she was a puppy it was very frightening for her and me she has now learnt her lesson to not go in the hole too far but with other terriers if the tail stops them they dont go right in the hole it also as i stated befor helps the owner find the dog theres lots of holes how am i to know which one my dog has chased down if i cant see the tail?. If it were curled over i woulnt be able to see the tail and to pull it out could damage the tail. and i dont want rats or the fox in my garden or on my alotment they are vermin and carry disese. and the rabbits eat all of my vegtables. the rats scurry into the holes or anywhere inclosed to hide from the dog so does the rabbit. i rest my case. If you cant understand the need for these dogs to be docked then you are very oneminded in your veiws and opions and need to educate yourself a little further in coutryside affairs.

All i was saying at the start of my opion is that i think it is very unfair that my dogs have to choose between work or show and cannot do both jobs. So now at two days old i have to decide which one is for show and which one is for work. You cant spot a champion dog or a good worker this young.

i DID NOT COME HERE FOR LIKEMINDED PEOPLE TO THINK THAT MY VEIWS ARE RIDICULOUS. I HAVE A RIGHT TO AN OPIION JUST LIKE ANY OTHER. THANKYOU. o

 

[Janimal]

i voted yes , but its a hard one , realistically i think it should be down to the breeders / owners wether they want to dock or not .
this country is falling apart  :rant:

its the principal of it all , i have no real argument on the tail docking, ive seen it done and no problem , if people want to dock then it should be allowed , if they dont then fine , its taking our choices away that gets me  :rant:

you cant do anything without permission anymore , what happend to the free country we stove to achieve ?

im not just on about tail docking but the big picture .

people who make the decisions , without really knowing much about the problem then its the lay people who have to do as we are told  :rant:

ok rant over  o    ( for now  :- "  )

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I know Sharon put this on the other thread - but I tend to agree here.

Its really our freedom of choice thats being taken away.

I dont show and my dogs are just pets but I cannot see anything wrong basically with the docking of tails espcially in working breeds or where the dogs tails may end up being damaged - which would in turn cause the dogs a lot more pain than having them taken off at birth.

I agree - the dew claws will be next, and I had a dog with real problems with the dew claws, and the problems they cause too.

I personally dont agree with taking the tails off purely for show or cosmetic reasons, but cant see the harm in docking if its done professionally.

Once the bans start........ its where do they stop.

 

[Joanna]

All this talk of pain and discomfort years after the event just does not wash with me, I'm afraid

I lived with a dog who had pain discomfort and irritation in her stump (dobe). Trouble is Tracey, once it's done, you can't change it. good enough reason not to do it in the first place?

Respect the opinions of all, but I still think in this day and age(with the exception of one or two breeds of workers), it is purely a cosmetic procedure.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Ok 1 of our bitch's is 24lb 2oz now what i'm thinking is should I have her docked then I can get her in the Not ex 24lb group?.

1st hunting, now tail docking, think you'll all find out your in for a big suprise once the new animal welfare bill comes in.

lets say your out working or even racing your dog and it picks up an injury? would we then be open to prosecution as if you hadn't been taking part in the activaty your dog wouldnt of got injured so could some well meaning do gooder group then prosecute you for causing unessasary suffering?

before people support reform they should consider the consiquences?.

 

[Strike Whippets]

You talk sense AGAIN :thumbsup:

 

[Janimal]

What i cant understand is docking of a lambs tail by farmers not vets is still being alound to carry on?

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farmers imo are better qualified to do it then some person with a limited knowledge but a certificate to say they can , some farmers can splint legs better then your average vet as they do it more often, they work with and know those animals far better
also many good breeders are far better at docking or removing dews for the very same reason

the tails are taken off to prevent maggot probs and also the soiling devalues the fleece  :thumbsup:

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This is nothing at all like docking dogs tails either.

and Posh totty the fleeces are of little value these days really. Sometimes the farmers are lucky to get £5.00 for them now. :angry:

Sheeps tails are not taken off for cosmetic reasons at all - its mainly for health

Ive seen young lambs die when the maggots eat their way underneath their tails - it is a horrible death for them.

The lambs run and skip and play unaware that the rubber band that is used to dock their tails is even there at all. The tail eventually drops off and causes no suffering.

This method is not usually used on dogs.

 

[05whippet]

Ok 1 of our bitch's is 24lb 2oz now what i'm thinking is should I have her docked then I can get her in the Not ex 24lb group?.
1st hunting, now tail docking, think you'll all find out your in for a big suprise once the new animal welfare bill comes in.

lets say your out working or even racing your dog and it picks up an injury? would we then be open to prosecution as if you hadn't been taking part in the activaty your dog wouldnt of got injured so could some well meaning do gooder group then prosecute you for causing unessasary suffering?

before people support reform they should consider the consiquences?.

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A VERY sensible and worryingly true answer! :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

unfortunatly the government is having it's strings pulled by groups like PETA who make large donnations to our government and in return get listened to.

if PETA get their way we will not even be allowed to keep a goldfish in a bowl?.

 

[kris]

What i cant understand is docking of a lambs tail by farmers not vets is still being alound to carry on?

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farmers imo are better qualified to do it then some person with a limited knowledge but a certificate to say they can , some farmers can splint legs better then your average vet as they do it more often, they work with and know those animals far better
also many good breeders are far better at docking or removing dews for the very same reason

the tails are taken off to prevent maggot probs and also the soiling devalues the fleece  :thumbsup:

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This is nothing at all like docking dogs tails either.

and Posh totty the fleeces are of little value these days really. Sometimes the farmers are lucky to get £5.00 for them now. :angry:

Sheeps tails are not taken off for cosmetic reasons at all - its mainly for health

Ive seen young lambs die when the maggots eat their way underneath their tails - it is a horrible death for them.

The lambs run and skip and play unaware that the rubber band that is used to dock their tails is even there at all. The tail eventually drops off and causes no suffering.

 

This method is not usually used on dogs.

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this method (before the ban on lay persons docking) was the method that EVERYONE i knew in docked breeds used because there was no bleeding,no pain,no infection,and you never lost a pup with it. :thumbsup: the first litter i ever bred were docked by a vet and a bloodier mess i couldnt imagine. :angry: because i didnt want to go through that again i learned how to band pups tails and do it properly.i didnt know anyone who cut tails rather than a vet.when i asked my vet why they cut rather than banded which was a much kinder way of doing it he said it was cos of the risk of gangrene,which admittedly although minute was too high a risk for a vet to take.

 

[Seraphina]

Though I might have a go.....would hate my girl to hurt her tail on the farm or have a wombat rip at her ears.....

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to prevent injury to the ears they used to be docked like this, or even shorter