Tail Docking

[foxway]

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Both ear cropping and tail docking was originally done to avoid injuries.  The problem nowadays is that for every working breed that people claim needs to docked, there is several breeds working in similar conditions, which are not and never were docked.
I just wonder why do spaniels suffer "horrible injuries" to their tails and not to their ears?  If animals is pushing through brambles the ears, face and chest would be the first to be injured.  I have heard people justifying docking of boxers, dobes and rotties because they bash their tail on furniture, getting them injured, but Great Danes certainly do that and nobody advocates docking them. 

To say that if a dog had long tail it would be harder to pull out of a hole is just too ridiculous.

The ears were cropped in fighting and hunting dogs because it was believed that such animals as wild pigs, wolves, lynx or bear would grab and hold the dog by it'a ear.  As would the opponent in fighting ring.  If you look at some old books the ear was cropped as small as possible, it was only later that this procedure was applied to make the ear large and standing up.

But just because some procedures were considered beneficial in the past that does not make it right.  Lot of things were believed, like that if your bitch gets mated to a mongrel you can never breed a purebred litter from her. 

Lets face it just because a dog looks better to you without tail or with cropped ears is NOT GOOD ENOUGH REASON to subject dog to a an amputation.

I know exactly how you feel, for me Great Dane does not look right unless it has ears up.  But that is my problem, my conditioning from seeing only cropped Danes for the first 20 years of my life.  I find it hard to get over that, BUT I know it is my problem, and do not go around advocating ear cropping.

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Its not ridiciuolous to say that a terrier with a longer tail could get trapped down the hole as we know that a fox terrier(if you know what one is its not a jack russel as some uneducated people think) without a docked tail will have a curled tail which will lie flat on the back of the dog therfor not acting as an anchor or pipestopper(that means an erect tail). Docking of this breed was done 450 years ago for that reason. the pipestopper tail anchors the dog so the owner can find the terrier in the hole an pull him out. You will only understand when you have worked and lived with this breed. Our dogs catch the rats down our alotment and a good job too.

I also do not think it is fair to say that show dogs cannot be docked. My dogs are able to show and work and they have there tails docked. It will be impossible to seperated working dogs from pets or show. Nobody has yet stated why a dog cannot show and work? why should my breed have to give up one for the other. I cant have a working dog with a long tail! but defra are now trying to ban the showing of docked dogs will this ban exempt the working dogs?

Its all very confusing and should just be a matter that is left to a breeders own descretion.

People who are supporting the ban should do so by buying dogs that are an undocked breed(life is all about choices and you dont have to buy a docked breed just beacause you think its cute there are plenty of puppies out there that are breed with tails) Also if a breeer sells a dog with a docked tail you have the choice not to buy the puppy and to look elsewhere just let the docked breeds get on with the docking of tails in docked breeds. Stop worring about it being cruel as all breeders have assured you that there is no evidence of pain or phanthom pain if your dogs chasing his tail its proably beause your feeding it too much protien and hes hyperactive or just very happy or maybee a little crazy and has fire in his belly! but surley not beacuse of a phamtom pain. What you never had you never miss. Pupppies cant remeber the 2nd day of their life the same as we cant remember the day we were born. Once this ban has came into place envoiromentalists will find something else to ban. Maybe something that the people who support the ban feel passionate about. There will always be somthing to moan or whine about and society wil never be happy. I just wonder what next will be banned any ideas?

As for the ears correction there are alot of thing that happen in the show world to make a dog look better tricks and secrets in the breed. I too do not agree with this as this as altering the dog cosmectically to make him look a better made example. In my eyes thats also cheating! and unessary stress and ocassionaly pain for the dog.

everybody has a right to an opion but sometimes dont you think its best to agree to dissagree? and leave such matters alone. Banning tail docking is not going to save the world of cruelty to dogs. There are many pets owners who do not deserve animals through mistreatment perhaps time and money should be spent on making sure that responsible owners are only aloud to have pets. In one country you have to have a licence to own a dog you have to do a training course and a test to pass and get your licence. This would show commintment of pet owners and im sure that an abuser of dogs would not go to these lenghts to get a pet if they intend on not looking after it properly. It could also help with the danerous dog act.

I just hope that the people who support the ban are good pet owners and not hypercrites to cruelty. Walk their dogs 3 times a day like responsible breeders do. Dont leave them at home for extreme lomg hours without company Feed them a healthty diet so they dont become obese, Dont Shout at their dogs so not to scare them or even strike them when they have a accident on the kicthen floor, groom them on a regular basis to make sure they are clean and protected against fleas and wromed and vaccinted to schedual. Loved very much and nearly the most important people in your lives. Like my belove dogs are.

 

[kris]

It's clear that some people advocating docking of pets tails are just not educated in such things. This has been clarified by some of the recent unintelligent posts. errrr,where does it say that the people advocating docking arent educated in the practice?isnt that an assumption, nay a wild guess on your part?as for your insulting remarks about peoples intelligence i really do feel that some of your posts here to other members are getting very close to being personal abuse.ive already given my qualifications to be able to speak knowledgeably on the subject.may i ask what yours are?Phantom dew claws? Yeah dead funny, hope you made yourself laugh. In comparison to a dogs tail there are very few nerve endings in the dew claw (and remember I'm not just talking about pain receptors, nerves for controlling tail movement, sensing touch, heat, cold).

i didnt post this as a funny remark,it was posted in all honesty.if youre comparing amputation of limbs in a human to those in a dog im sure if phantom pain can be felt by a person having a leg removed that same phantom pain can be felt by someone having a digit removed also.as for the statement about nerve endings and there being more pain receptors in the tail than a digit what authority do you quote here  for your statement?The sad fact seems to be that people in favour of PETS being docked are stubborn & set in their ways, no matter what evidence is thrown at them they will defend PET docking because, "it's always been done", "i don't see the dog in any discomfort or pain", "my mummy and daddy did it before me and so it must be good", "the breed wouldn't be the breed without docking" blah, blah, blah.

well i never made any statement about pet dogs just my own preferences and why.yes i am honest enough to say its my preference but im not trying to shove my opinions down other peoples throats and then making derogatory remarks about their opinions when they dont align with mine.ive yet to see any evidence being thrown at me that docking is painful and that dogs feel phantom pain for years after its been done.if the evidence is presented to me then yes i will look at it and might change my opinion,unlike others my opinions arent set in stone.but you havent presented ANY  evidence to support your claims.how many litters have you docked?how many docked breeds have you owned?how  many litters have you even seen docked?and i mean by a professional breeder who knows what theyre doing.

I'll say again I've still to hear one reasonable argument for PET tail docking  :- "

Dogs are born with tails, if so many problems were caused by the tail in life the 99% of vets against tail docking would turn - especially as vets are here to make money people!! Vets would lose out on expenses for tail docking if it were banned in pets. :thumbsup:

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im sure most vets income doesnt rely on tail docking as their main income

 

[FeeFee]

Interesting point about people choosing to buy undocked dogs. This discussion came up on another forum I visit recently, where the membership is mainly pet dog owners rather than breeders or those who work their dogs.

The majority on there were definitely against docking of pet dogs. Quite a few had gone to a lot of trouble to find breeders who were prepared not to dock (there were some lovely pictures of rotties with tails :wub: ), so I think in the end the tide of public opinion will move against docking as standard.

I'm old enough to remember certain breeds having cropped ears and seeing this as normal. Now, when I see pictures of dogs with cropped ears it looks horrible and unnatural. People soon get used to change.

Just a question here, as I'll happily admit I know naff all about breeding/showing. If a breed has been traditionally docked, then presumably you have no idea when you breed those dogs what their tail carriage/formation would be like? I just wonder if some breeders are concerned that otherwise 'perfect' dogs might be compromised for showing by 'wrong' tails?

 

[kris]

dunno about other breeds fee fee but in dobes the standard says the tail should be a continuation of the spine with no material droop.as ive never had an undocked dobe i dont know what my dogs tails would have looked like so cant comment,but i would have thought that as long as its carried like that then it wouldnt matter if the tail curled over the back or was carried straight.

as regards pet people beinganti docking it doesnt surprise me one bit. a lot of folk ive met over the years thought dogs in docked breeds were born like that!when they know the tail is docked they instantly think its chopped off with a carving knife! (visions of 3 blind mice and the farmers wife ) if they witnessed a tail docking being done properly by an experienced breeder than they change their mind.i know cos ive docked tails for folk in many breeds over the years and a lot were pet breeders who didnt know what do do or even where to go to get it done.when they saw how uneventful it was to the pups they breathed a sigh of relief cos they thought it was going to be a bloodbath and it wasnt anything like what they were dreading. :thumbsup:

 

[FeeFee]

To be honest, Kris, I don't think most people were objecting to docking because of the process, though I'm sure that came into it. I think most of them just like dogs with tails.

 

[kris]

thats their choice. :thumbsup: though why youd want a traditionally docked breed to have a tail when theres plenty of other breeds with tails is beyond me! after all most pet peoples first sight of a docked breed is from seeing one in the street or in a book or at a doggy event.so if they liked the breed they saw without a tail in the first place then why want to change it?or are there hardly any docked breeds with docked tails around now,so the ones theyve seen all have tails ? :blink:

 

[foxway]

To be honest, Kris, I don't think most people were objecting to docking because of the process, though I'm sure that came into it.  I think most of them just like dogs with tails.

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I have seen terriers with long tails and they curl and touch their back. The breed standard for a smooth fox terrier in the show ring is as reads ''Stern should be set high, and carried gayily, but not over the back or curled it should be of good lenght anything approching a pipestopper being highly objectional''.

when the ban comes into place do you think the kennel club will rewrite breed standards

for previously docked breds?

just think it sad that my terrier will have to choose to either show or work :

 

[TC]

Right, here's my twopenneth :b

For those breeds that were traditionally docked for a reason, they should remain this way. I really don't see that there is any justification needed. Can you imagine people hundreds of years ago doing it for fun, No, they did it for necessity, to protect the animal. It is only now that people are questioning it, because they are putting human emotion behind their argument.

I don't honestly think that anyone is really able to comment on this topic unless they have actually carried out the procedure themselves. It is over in a second and the pups don't even notice. All this talk of pain and discomfort years after the event just does not wash with me, I'm afraid. Having done quite a few litters myself, I have never seen blood everywhere or screaming pups.

I know that humans suffer pain after amputation as nerve endings regrow, but this would be the same with a mature dog having a leg amputated. it cannot be compared to a 3 day old pup having it's tail docked. Those who have been around litters of docked breeds would know that the pups never react in a way that would signify pain and discomfort. It quite obvious if a pup of that age or even a week older is having issues, pull one off a nipple and listen to it protest, or wake it up to weigh it, listen to it after a litter mate has stood on it, you soon know about it. Do you not think that if they were in pain from a tail docking they wouldn't show it?

The same with dewclaws, and I suppose this is a big worry to me. If a ban on docking were to go through, then this would be next, I'm sure. I am saddened that the breeder of one of mine did not remove dew claws, as I now have to be careful with him. He has caught them (although not hideously badly) on a few occasions. He is obsessed with racing, and so I take him. I have to tape his dew claws for protection

As for not being able to communicate with others, have you ever seen a docked breed not wag his tail? Okay, I know it's not two foot long and so not obvious from 600 yards, but it certainly wags like crazy, and in my experience, so does the whole of their back end

Whatever happens will happen, I'm sure. This is just my personal opinion, and I'm sure there will be many that disagree. I would not have commented, had I not felt qualified to.

As a footnote, anyone who had seen, and had to treat, a flyblown sheep (through no fault of it's own or the farmer, but purely circumstances) will know that docking is the only way to have a comfortable, healthy animal.

 

[kris]

ive seen a few maggot ridden old english sheepdogs in my time too.tail end was in a disgusting state.and i agree with you about dewclaws tc.watch them ban that next,its only going to be a matter of time :thumbsup:

 

[foxway]

ive seen a few maggot ridden old english sheepdogs in my time too.tail end was in a disgusting state.and i agree with you about dewclaws tc.watch them ban that next,its only going to be a matter of time :thumbsup:

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I quite agree with you TC and kris :thumbsup: . Dew claws will be next on the banning agender.

Im also gald to have other experienced breaders support the fact that there is no screaming or gushing from the puppies when having their tails removed and that they wouldnt remember having a tail.

99% of vets agree with the ban beause they dont make enough money from docking! and probaly dont dock many puppies! How many breeders take thier pups to the vets to be docked?! Vets are inexperienced in docking and i believe that reponsible experienced breaders are certainly the best at removing tails and dew claws. :thumbsup:

 

[Paula Roberts]

Great reply TC, :thumbsup: was well worth the tuppence. :lol:

 

[FeeFee]

I thought it was now illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock tails? Is that not the case?

 

[TC]

I thought it was now illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock tails? Is that not the case?

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Hi FeeFee, it is legal as long as the person completing the procedure is competent and I believe, "as long as the pups eyes are not open"

As a fully qualified vet nurse, we more often than completed this routine procedure whilst the vet checked the bitch :thumbsup:

 

[Alex Delarge]

"bordering on personal abuse"

(w00t) (w00t) o

 

[quintessence]

I had promised myself that I would only make one contribution to this topic but I was thinking about Corgis. I wonder if those who work Cardigans have more problems than those who work Pembrokes.

Jenny

 

[TC]

oops looks like I opened a can of worms this morning (w00t)

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Yes you did you naughty girl (w00t)

 

[kris]

The pain a dog will endure having damaged it's undocked tail in adulthood is far far greater that the pain a puppy feels when getting it's tail docked at a few days old  . Having lived with Boxers for many years , I can assure you of that .

http://rocksetdesigns.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

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Lets cut pups legs off because the pup will go through less pain than an adult that breaks their leg.

What I've just said is Just a little more idiotic than what you posted. And about you being able to assure me of your dogs not suffering any pain - read my previous posts. :thumbsup:

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quote,alex de large ''bordering on personal abuse''

(w00t) (w00t) o

this is just one of your posts i considered to be personally abusive.youve made more than one.maybe you dont consider it to be so.theres no need to call a members post idiotic just cos they dont agree with you.

 

[JAXASS14D]

The pain a dog will endure having damaged it's undocked tail in adulthood is far far greater that the pain a puppy feels when getting it's tail docked at a few days old  . Having lived with Boxers for many years , I can assure you of that .

http://rocksetdesigns.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

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Lets cut pups legs off because the pup will go through less pain than an adult that breaks their leg.

What I've just said is Just a little more idiotic than what you posted. And about you being able to assure me of your dogs not suffering any pain - read my previous posts. :thumbsup:

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quote,alex de large ''bordering on personal abuse''

(w00t) (w00t) o

this is just one of your posts i considered to be personally abusive.youve made more than one.maybe you dont consider it to be so.theres no need to call a members post idiotic just cos they dont agree with you.

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Thank you Kris for stepping in here as I was a bit taken aback by this response .

 

[Alex Delarge]

Kris, i feel you're starting to bully me, i feel i'm being abused by you in fact people either listen to me or don't it's up to them, there is nothing personal as far as i'm concerned, i like heated discussions more than happy nicey nice, "oh yeah I suppose your right, but don't you think...", "oh yes, i never thought about that, but...", I think people are more honest when they're annoyed because they lose their composure and you generally find out more about them then. I disagree with you, you disagree with me, that's what made this discussion interesting. You'll probably see me asking for your advice on another topic in the future. I think you've taken some of the things I said to heart.

 

[kris]

The pain a dog will endure having damaged it's undocked tail in adulthood is far far greater that the pain a puppy feels when getting it's tail docked at a few days old  . Having lived with Boxers for many years , I can assure you of that .

http://rocksetdesigns.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

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Lets cut pups legs off because the pup will go through less pain than an adult that breaks their leg.

What I've just said is Just a little more idiotic than what you posted. And about you being able to assure me of your dogs not suffering any pain - read my previous posts. :thumbsup:

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quote,alex de large ''bordering on personal abuse''

(w00t) (w00t) o

this is just one of your posts i considered to be personally abusive.youve made more than one.maybe you dont consider it to be so.theres no need to call a members post idiotic just cos they dont agree with you.

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Thank you Kris for stepping in here as I was a bit taken aback by this response .

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thats ok hun,so was i! :huggles: